Who on Earth do I vote for?

Didn’t labour first propose the oil company windfall tax? The tories then saw how popular it was, so pitched it as one of their own.

‘All the same…’

PCA – no anti democratic action is supporting a veto on something the scots parliament has decided.  Anti democratic action is labour having an electoral pact with the tories that gave tories 10 seats and saved Mays government leading to brexit.  Anti democratic action is London labour having a policy, scottish labour voting against that same policy because the SNP and greens supported it.  Anti democratic action is labour going into coalition with the tories on multiple councils to keep the SNP out.  Constitutional matters are irrelevant to councils.  But the pact with the tories has led to labour voting for cuts.Edinburgh has a coalition of labour tory and lib dems.  Anti democratic action is refusing to acknowledge that the majority UK wide want back into the EU and thats a huge majority in Scotland

we have 4 social democratic parties in Scotland .  labour would rather work with far right tories than with SNP.  labours tribal hatred of the Snp because the SNP took power leads them to this absurd situation whereby they do this.  Their presence at Holyrood has been one of a child having a tantrum and throwing furniture around

In Scotland vote labour get tory is a true statement.  We are looking at a high probability of a labour / tory coalition in holyrood after the next scottish election

I do not vote SNP and do not support them for other reasons but I cannot vote for labour while they behave like this.

It’s good to see that many on here see there is no real political solution at the minute, but incredibly worrying that many will do anything just to get the tories out.

Considering the damage they have done, it seems like a reasonable first step to me.

It’s ‘The Comfy Sweaters Lets Not Be Too Hasty Party’ for me.

I would vote for this, where do I sign up?

I reckon each of us has two choices. Do the @BruceWee suggestion, and vote for the party that best demonstrates the values and policies you want regardless of how well they do, becasue he’s right, if you don’t vote for them, the two major parties will pay attention to what you are voting for. The problem with that is time…The other option is vote tactically for the party that will remove the Tories because of the very immediate and obvious damage to our society that they’re doing, the problem with that is that you’ll get a slight improvement, but largely the status quo.

Given where we are right now, I’m doing the latter, but I completely get why you’d choose the former.

Tactical anti tory voting is the right thing IMO -fortunately my constituency will never have a tory MP so it really does not matter who I vote for.  If it was a tory marginal I would have a difficult decision to make

You have the luxury of the @BruceWee position. Use it wisely.

If it was a tory marginal I would have a difficult decision to make

Yeah, you know? Sometimes it’s going to have to be the lesser of two weevils that gets the vote.

incredibly worrying that many will do anything just to get the tories out

Unless you are waiting for some utopian bloodless revolution it’s the only valid way to take the first step towards positive change.

Tories Out At All Cost is based on the real world of today in this country.

I and make others are done with pointless protest votes that just keep the Tories in. Done.

Get Labour (or Lib/Lab/Green pact… That’s fine with me) in then bash them if necessary.

It’s good to see that many on here see there is no real political solution at the minute, but incredibly worrying that many will do anything just to get the tories out.

I can see lots of paths to a better UK… and every single one starts with having as few Conservative MPs as possible after the next election.

Anti democratic action is labour going into coalition with the tories on multiple councils to keep the SNP out.  

That’s not anti-democratic. None of the stuff you’ve mentioned is. You just don’t like the outcome, and don’t understand why opposition parties can’t stop being so beastly to the government by disagreeing with them.

I can see lots of paths to a better UK… and every single one starts with having as few Conservative MPs as possible after the next election.

The problem is if you are voting for a party that advocates continuing with the current system, as a vote for Labour supports, then you are voting for yet another Tory government, possibly even worse than the current one, in 5 or 10 years time.

It’s not a first step.  It’s the 800th step in a process that is not going in a good direction.

You have the luxury of the @BruceWee position. Use it wisely.

It’s worth remembering though that all votes are not created equal.  If you live in a marginal constituency then where your vote goes is going to get far more attention than a vote in a safe seat.

Without a doubt it’s a dilemma, but just remember that without a fundamental change the Tories are going to be back and probably worse than before.  Especially if the only people voting for no-hoper parties in marginal seats are voting for Reform.

I can see lots of paths to a better UK… and every single one starts with having as few Conservative MPs as possible after the next election.

Whereas I see removing the tories and replacing them with the current Labour party a path for the Tories to return in an election or two and push the country even further into a right wing oligarchy. The tories and their ideology are a cancer, replacing them with Starmers labour is treating cancer with painkillers, it will mask the pain in the short term, but it will cure nothing.

never vote labour, the current tories are clowns but there is no situation labour cant make worse

It is PCA because its disguised and hidden.  How many folk voted labour thinking that that meant more tory power – thats the issue.  If it was discussed publicly beforehand you would be right.  But it wasn’t.  Everyone knows that the SNP and greens work together.  the fact that labour and tories are working together is hidden and denied
Do you really think labour supporters wanted coalitions with tories and this hidden electoral pact?

On Edinburgh council two councilors were suspended by the party for refusing to vote for the coalition with the tories.
What about labour in Scotland voting against Scots government proposals that are London labour policy?  Its happened more than once.

Or how about the labour candidate in Rutherglen having to repudiate key parts of labour policy?

Its nothing to do with constitutional affairs anyway – its about a tribal hatred of the SNP because the SNP took power.

Labour in Scotland have forgotton who the enemy is

Whereas I see removing the tories and replacing them with the current Labour party a path for the Tories to return in an election or two and push the country even further into a right wing oligarchy.

If the Conservatives win another term… things won’t stay as they are… they will further embed their political advantages… more first past the post… more legal limits on unions… more restrictions on those that speak out against them. If we don’t get the Tories out this time, we won’t get the “status quo”, things will keep getting worse. This election is not just a protest about what the Tories have done over the last decade and more, but the only chance to stop what they will do to this country over the next decade and more. To let them carry on ruling after the next election… because you’re worried about them coming back and ruling again after a future one… that’s scary logic.

then you are voting for yet another Tory government, possibly even worse than the current one, in 5 or 10 years time.

Maybe, maybe not, as you say yourself the party will want to know why you’re not voting for it, if most tell them they’re too extremely right wing, they’ll adjust accordingly, no? Besides which, regardless of how a country organises its voting and parliamentary chamber there will always be right wing parties, they ain’t going away.

then you are voting for yet another Tory government, possibly even worse than the current one, in 5 or 10 years time.

But what ion the majority of people felt their lives/teh country was better under Labour. Why would they switch back to Tories. It will largely be in Labours hands to prove it can be better, even if not dramatically so.

The problem is if you are voting for a party that advocates continuing with the current system, as a vote for Labour supports, then you are voting for yet another Tory government, possibly even worse than the current one, in 5 or 10 years time.

So who do I vote for in order to get the Tories out?

Whoever you need to locally.

Lord only knows where the Conservatives will be in 5 years time, but you probably don’t want to live there anyway

Depends on your seat. And in some seats, it’s simply not possible. That’ll be true in fewer seats at this next election than in recent ones (and probably near future ones).

If you feel so strongly that labour’s position on x,y, or z is too awful to contemplate you can always get involved. Alternatively piss and moan on a mountain bike forum. This country simply can’t afford another Tory government. Public Services are in an appalling state. If you can’t vote Labour because Iraq or Libdem because tuition fees you’re enabling the party that is systematically taking the country apart. There is no perfect party.

 that’s scary logic.

Voting for a continuation of the current system and expecting the current system to change is scary logic.

If you feel so strongly that labour’s position on x,y, or z is too awful to contemplate you can always get involved.

I could do but I suspect my views would get me kicked out shortly after joining.  Based on recent purges, at least.

This country simply can’t afford another Tory government.

That’s unfortunate because that’s what it’s going to get.  Another extreme right wing tory government chasing the votes of Reform and UKIP.

Voting for a continuation of the current system and expecting the current system to change is scary logic.

The current system is going to change… if we leave the Tories to it… they keep shifting the goalposts to favour themselves… and they get to do that by winning elections… despite most people who cast their vote voting for other parties. We let them rule based on minority support. As voters, we keep putting them in office. By not voting because “they’re all the same”. Or by splitting the opposition vote by not getting wise to how our voting system currently works.

If you feel so strongly that labour’s position on x,y, or z

I am not certain whether I know what Labour’s position on X,Y, and Z, is.

And I am even less certain that I know what it will be next week.

That’s unfortunate because that’s what it’s going to get.

By your own theory though if you vote for the policies you want to see, the two major parties will follow you?

Another extreme right wing tory government chasing the votes of Reform and UKIP.

No you won’t, becasue following your own theory of voting for policies you want to see enacted, the two major parties will follow you remember? The vast majority of folks in the UK lean slightly left or slightly right. Reform and UKIP won’t be worth chasing as they’ll be so small as to be irrelevant. According to you.

Edit: You can see this in action in the USA right now. In this off-election year, recently held local elections have seen the Republican vote collapse, why? Abortion rights. It’s wildly unpopular, so even die hard republicans are holding their noses and voting democrat becasue they’ve rejected this policy, regardless of the fact that it’s been a clarion call of the right wing evangelical vote for decades now. It will force the Republicans to act faster than the arguments about Trump will.

If the hinterlands are full of disenfranchised hard left Labour voters it could even be viable to start a hard left party in order to shift the conversation couldn’t it?
Back to the pissing and moaning then…

By your own theory though if you vote for the policies you want to see, the two major parties will follow you?

In the absence of evidence to the contrary, I think it’s worth a try.  It certainly worked for UKIP.

No you won’t, becasue following your own theory of voting for policies you want to see enacted, the two major parties will follow you remember? The vast majority of folks in the UK lean slightly left or slightly right. Reform and UKIP won’t be worth chasing as they’ll be so small as to be irrelevant. According to you.

I feel like I’m either not understanding something or you’re baiting a really clever trap.  Who am I in this scenario?  Am I me the individual (whose individual actions make absolutely no difference to the outcome of the election), or am I representing the actions of thousands or even millions of other voters?

I don’t get the don’t vote labour because you’ll get a worse Tory govt in next election or election but one.  What is your answer?
Are you hoping that if things get so bad a new opposition will coalesce and sweep in a new era of equality

I can’t stand aside and let the Tories run riot with the hope if things get bad enough something that fits my personal view of an ideal opposition with develop.  Too much poverty, too much hate,  climate crisis deepening.

Or by splitting the opposition vote by not getting wise to how our voting system currently works.

As I said, it worked out pretty well for UKIP.

I love the assmption that the only reason people vote Reform and risk splitting the Tory vote is because they are too stupid to understand FPTP.

That may well be the case.  However, they got what they wanted.  You can either learn from that or continue to vote sensibly because you are smart enough to understand FPTP.

What is your answer?

Look at the party manifestos and vote for the one that most closely matches your beliefs.  Regardless of FPTP maths.

Or vote for a party that is more extreme than your beliefs.  That will drag the mainstream parties in your direction as they chase your vote.

hard left party

So the only alternative, which would be significantly and fundamentally different to the current hard-right Tory government, would led by a “hard-left” party?

Despite being hard-left myself I was thinking that there might be the possibility of a social-democratic alternative, no?

It’s just hard-right or hard-left?

We have 3 social democratic alternatives to labour in Scotland and at time ( before the inevitable splintering) a r real left wing party ( but not hard left) as well

Look at the party manifestos and vote for the one that most closely matches your beliefs.  Regardless of FPTP maths

I am not unsympathetic to this approach – if there was a large shift to green voting it would potentially shift Labour policy – but only on environmental issues. However it’s unlikely to cost Labour more than a tiny handful of seats under a FPTP system so unlikely to have much of an impact.  

However, I think when we have such an horrendous government it’s is posturing to not vote out the Tories, given our shitty FPTP system, if you have the chance in a swing constituency.

If you live in a rock solid safe Tory or Labour seat then fill your boots

I love the assmption that the only reason people vote Reform and risk splitting the Tory vote is because they are too stupid to understand FPTP.

No one has said this.

Remember, the Conservatives have been in power while being transformed by people (and media) with one foot in the Tory camp, one foot in the UKIP/Reform one. If, after the Tories are out of government, you see this as a path to changing the policies of a Labour led government, then I’d agree that it has merit. In the meantime, if we get another Tory one… then… it’s all pointless. Dragging an opposition Labour party towards your ideal position by supporting other opposition parties, while others drag the Tories, still in power, towards theirs… no one will thank you, not least those hit hardest by yet more Tory rule.

 no one will thank you, not least those hit hardest by yet more Tory rule.

And no one will thank you if a Labour government with an unassailable majority does very little or even nothing to alleviate conditions for those hit hardest by Tory rule.

BruceWee

And no one will thank you if a Labour government with an unassailable majority does very little or even nothing to alleviate conditions for those hit hardest by Tory rule.

The current Tory party is the actual, a future Labour party is still theoretical. They are bound to dump half of their manifesto pledges anyway as all parties do. That can mean both good and bad in this context.

I can only vote based on what I’m seeing now, not a theoretical future.

Btw, I’m not trying to be an argumentative sod. I’m very aware that we*all* want change, we just disagree on the best way of achieving it. 👍

And no one will thank you if a Labour government with an unassailable majority does very little or even nothing to alleviate conditions for those hit hardest by Tory rule.

There’ll be another election… I’m not voting now based on their record in 6 years time. And anyway, I’m not saying vote Labour no matter what… I’m saying vote to not return a Tory MP in your seat… in many seats that means voting LibDem… I wish there were more seats where that meant voting Green… but that’s not where we are for this election (that could change in future… anything can happen after step1… remove the Tories).

There’s a bit of naive optimism going on here. We’re all (well, most of us) are gagging to get the tories out but Starmer and Reeves have made perfectly clear their trickle down fiscal conservatism, their failure to support strikers and their toadying loyalty to US foreign policy. Once elected, governments have always shifted to the right. The LP has done that already. People wanting progress will have to fight for it. The posties, rail workers, nurses and doctors have risen to the challenge but a lot more of this will be required if we are to see improvements in society or else we just get more of the same.

Oh for God’s sake…I was given proper ID when they sent me here. Do you think they’re stupid on IO??

You sound very aggressive. Not sure you are the sort of person we want here. You are white and wealthy aren’t you?

Well coming from Io csb is going to be busy breathing the sulfur dioxide we are producing that should help a bit with the climate change.
CSB might also be a great climber às Io is very mountainous but…then again it has very low gravity so…