When did Shimano get “rubbish”?

See it looks more like the cassette comparison is used to perpetuate the “expensive” line when the 11sp stuff is looking competitive.

Well, when their cheapest 12-speed cassette is a good margin more expensive than Shimano’s most expensive 11-speed one, it’s hard to avoid this conclusion ;-) You make a fair point about their 11-speed range being more comparable though, but I still argue that Shimano’s engineering is superior.

There’s no right or wrong here. People will pay what they want and in many cases cost is only a small part of the overall equation, so the fact that the GX cassette is an extra £80 simply won’t bother them in the slightest. I still argue that this marketplace needs competition, although I’d agree that the recent GX groupset is much better value than their previous offerings and has gone a long way to negating the need for it. Shimano may well find it a tougher market to get into now they’ve missed the boat.

I’m pretty sure that XTR is due a refresh very soon (possibly 2019 MY), which will give a very strong indication of the direction of travel for XT a couple of years hence.

I wonder if they’ll go twelve speed (possibly with a new freehub) or whether they’ll simply freshen up with new graphics and anodizing?

I kinda agree with OP that Shimano seem to have given up on mtb mechanical groups. The 10sp stuff to M780/785 was great – I disagree clutches unnecessarily weight the controls beyond use but do agree the cagelock makes wheel changes etc easier.    It’s all kinda moot as both manufacturers have blind devotees apart from the floaters who will simply use whatever works best for them, but it’s still sad to see a company chuck away great standards and reduce to selling a second best product on their name.

Daern wrote

“Just for the hell of it, I thought I’d do a quick search for consumable items to compare. In fact, I’m surprised that the prices are actually pretty close across the board (apart from the cassette, of course):”

And the cassette really isn’t a comparable part- sure the Shimano is cheaper but it doesn’t have the range- it basically doesn’t do the one thing that 11 and 12 speed is good for

11 speed SRAM 11-42 cassette is £52 but heavier (it’s an OE spec I think), 10-42 is £72 but 10% wider range and lighter.

Hiya, the thread got big. Lol

Question, have sram got a patent on the simple little cage lock they use?

If shim’s answer to that is the clutch on/off switch, it’s a pretty poor one unless they are limited by a patent?

Also, what other benefit other than making a wheel swap slightly easier* does the ability to turn the clutch on/ off have?

*I’ll take the sram cage lock any day.