When did Shimano get “rubbish”?

I know these are perhaps isolated examples, but the Shimano Hollowtech II has always seemed a cracking piece of design, with a simple pre-load adjustment and low torque fasteners.

^This.  I’m extremely impressed with the ability of Shimano cranks to be easily removed and serviced compared to my experiences with RaceFace and SRAM.

I really like Shimano’s 10 speed stuff and the rear 12mm QRs are nice. HT2 cranks are jolly good too. 15mm axles can GRTF though.

edit- the HT2 BBs are great as well, I’ve had the same bum basic one on various frames over the last couple of years and it’s still going strong. Compare that to going through three or four GXP BBs in as many months.

Im running 10spd shimano on 3 mtbs.

1 is 2×10, the others 1×10 a mixture of slx xt and dura ace bar end.

all works perfectly, I haven’t ridden any sram equipped bikes to compare, but I can’t imagine they would be better, my shimano stuff just works.

we are running slx, xt and old deore brakes too, they all work perfectly.

ive used shimano exclusively since xt went 7spd in 1991, all my bikes have worked perfectly, any issues have been worn components or sticky cable etc.

I accept, this is anecdotal, also, i am a competent mechanic, which skews the result.

maybe ive just been lucky too.

we also run 3 road bikes, see above for my experience with those, although they’re not under the same pressure with dirt etc.

I think 9 speed was a sweet spot. Still is, the new Sora feels fantastic.

Might try SRAM next, to give 1* ago, but instinct tells me to try Deore instead.

Don’t trust the brakes. Wish I’d stuck with Hope. Wife’s are 10 years old and work like new.

I’ve never used SRAM (or Campag on the road) so can’t compare the two but I’ve had no problems beyond things wearing out with any of my Shimano drive trains. I replaced the XT rear mech on the Solaris last year but by then it had done over 8000km in three years in all sorts of conditions, there was still very little play in it.

I recently fitted an 11spd XT rear mech on a FS bike but since I’ve only done about 100km on it it’s way too early to draw any conclusions. I did consider SRAM but it was very much going to be a leap in the dark for me so I decided to stick with Shimano.

I suppose you get used to what you use and adjust to any foibles.

9-speed was the turning point. My first decent bike had 8-speed XT drivetrain. Shifted absolutely perfectly. Next bike had 9-speed. Worked ok, but not the same. The original 4-pot XT disk brakes were brilliant too.

I’ve got Shimano 10spd SLX (M675 stuff) with Sunrace cassette and have had zero issues with it, has required less adjustment than my 10spd SRAM stuff (OK so it’s lower end SRAM X7 etc.).

The Shimano BB has also outlasted the 2 SRAM one’s I’ve installed.

I have an 11spd XT set up sitting in a box at home and can’t decide whether to fit it or not.

Agree with daern re cranksets. I’ve had to saw a seized RaceFace crank off before. It was no doubt a very pretty thing, but Shimano HTII just works. Any aftermaket cranks I buy have been and will be Shimano. And I’ve recommended to other people and no-one has come back saying ‘oi this crank is borked’!

Current bike came with a RF and I don’ like it. No sir. Apart from the direct mount single ring, which is nice.

Had yesterday some wonderful bike hours on my Shimano equipped bike…- just fantastic! SRAM might have been the same?

Possible.

Shimano BB: only get the SAINT version to survive (a bit longer). And yes – the Hollowtech II design is great. But still waiting for a complete trouble free BB…

@DezB – I fitted a RaceFace Aeffect crank to my fat bike because I wanted a 28T oval chainring and that was the only way I could get it at the time (might be different now). No problems so far but it’s not a high mileage bike. I’ve also fitted an Aeffect crankset to my FS which will be a high mileage bike so we’ll see how it goes.

The one crankset I’m not sure of is the SRAM fitted to my commuter with the frankly stupid tapered spindle (well it’s not tapered but one end is 24mm diameter and the other 22mm) so I’ve got the SRAM GXP bottom bracket on there with the associated poor lifetime.

Shimano 10 spd XT (or XTR) – most reliable shifting I’ve ever used. Very resilient to skipping even with a drive train full of gritty peak district mud honking up steep climbs out the saddle. Shimano 11 speed haven’t tried it yet but SRAM 11 spd GX is lacking in this resilience – also I snapped a tooth off the cassette – extra range is nice though. Don’t care so much about the ‘feel’ of the shift – more that the thing actually changes gear successfully and then stays in it!

I would like it if the designers from both companies focused on getting the reliability back with the newer large 1x ranges (and at a decent pricepoint!) rather than adding more and more speeds. I think 10 speed is actually plenty across 10 to 42t range. Don’t really think more than 10 to 42t is something I really need in terms of Range.

SRAM Guide brakes – in my experinece they’re not great. Wasn’t really happy with the vague feel of them, poor pad life, no pads available that work well in the wet. Then they did the thing where they sieze on in the warm weather. Glad I wasn’t too far from home when that happened! Not worht the cost of fixing them so in the bin they went. Replaced with the latest SLX’s which have been great so far. Overall had good 2 to 3 years of heavy use out of every set of Shimano brakes I’ve owned – couple of sets I’ve had to bleed in that time frame but they worked great again after that. Sent back one set of older style SLX’s that didn’t work – replaced under warranty and the replacments worked great.

Cranks – Shimano – changing to that weird BCD was stupid. Will never buy a set of shimano cranks with that BCD. Its dumb! I use RaceFace cranks at the moment and old style shimano on another bike. both fine!

But still waiting for a complete trouble free BB…

If you use it, I don’t think there’s any such thing, but my XC bike’s BB93 has done nearly two years and 2000 miles of riding in some pretty varied conditions. It’s not a summer bike, just ridden when dry – it gets used in all conditions. For a £25 part, I think that’s pretty reasonable and as it only takes 30 minutes to swap it, I would say that’s about as close to maintenance free as I’m going to get with the sort of riding I do.

I’ve just done a straight replacement and if this one does the same time / mileage, I’ll be content:

(and yes, this still shifted pretty much perfectly right to the end of the event!)

Shimano XT M8000 rear mech clutch is serviceable & adjustable

i never knew that.. every day is a school day.

10 Speed XT mech + saint shifter with Sunrace Cassette for the win..

I wandered between the 2 for a while and I’ve been mostly SRAM for the last 6 years, for me it does just work, BB’s were solved by using the Hope ones, something I ended up doing when I was running Shimano as they were just crap back then, I was convinced of the cheapness/VFM of XT brakes but they all turned out to be the crap ones with the double pull requirement. They all ended up in the bin and I’m back on Hope.

I had a 10sp XT drivetrain which was perfectly functional, nothing more, the Ispec stuff just meant I could never get the controls sitting how I wanted them though and it was all bulky and harder to fit than any SRAM.

For many people Shimano is a default due to it being good when SRAM were poor, both do well now however the innovation from Shimano is setting them way back. Porky cassettes, smaller ranges, distrust of 1x etc,

The think that kept me SRAM was the level of support, the SRAM vs Shimano thread with some industry perspectives highlighted the differences I’ve seen from the side lines, SRAM want the shops to do well, want their products sold and known about then supported. Shimano just want a sale.

At this point Shimano would need to do something fairly spectacular to get my cash. For other people they will just default there, the launch of the dropper was met with much whooping that it would be the best thing as shimano will have refined it etc. anyone buy one? It does seem that shimano has a low bar/it was cheap level of satisfaction required whereas SRAM was expected to do way more. The way people have completely missed the GX range when complaining about pricing is classic too.

SRAM have brought a dropper to the masses, 1x to every price point, match maker, narrow wide, direct mount chain rings what have Shimano done in the same time?

But still waiting for a complete trouble free BB…

The new XT ones, despite the frustrating change in tool size, seem to last a lot longer. I mean, I’ve only got a sample size of 1 so far, but that’s been going 18 months including two winters and I used to pretty consistently get through two a year on the same bike. Don’t think I’ve ever had a BB last longer than a year before. Friend of mine has found similar.

Just chucked one on the singlespeed so I’ll see how that does.

What have Shimano done in the same time?

Continue to make solid drivetrain, braking and wheel components for the overwhelming majority of riding categories and end users, while offering choices and options for riders with different needs/preferences.

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MrLebowski wrote,

“Never had a problem with the clutch – to the point I don’t bother with it & wouldn’t buy a clutch mech now anyway. Not unless I was riding pedally DH or XC style enduro. Never dropped a chain racing XC either. Chain guard? Way cheaper & doesn’t affect the indexing – that is if your 1x.”

Clutch doesn’t do that much for chain retention tbh, it’s the narrow/wide rings that came along at the same time that do the job. Clutch just improves control a wee bit and cuts flap and noise, which is still worthy

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I only use Shimano . It just works . No clutch either .

The new XT ones, despite the frustrating change in tool size, seem to last a lot longer. I mean, I’ve only got a sample size of 1 so far, but that’s been going 18 months including two winters and I used to pretty consistently get through two a year on the same bike. Don’t think I’ve ever had a BB last longer than a year before. Friend of mine has found similar.

Same experience here. M8000 BBs doing well, current BB of choice.

I’ve always been a loyal user of Shimano drivetrain but recently have been thinking about switching to SRAM after a series of failures including…

– XTR M9000 shifter – cable twice came off the cam and jammed inside the housing under excessive cable tension (caused by a crash the first time) …managed to fix this both times by the trail side.

– XTR M9020 rear mechs – I am on my 3rd mech and both previous have failed in the same way (fortunately replaced under warranty).  The clutch starts sticking so the mech stays in the forward position when shifting from gear 1 and doesn’t take up the slack in the chain.  This happens regardless of adjustment to the clutch and after I have taken it apart and thoroughly cleaned it.  I think this may be down to excessive cleaning and possible corrosion …but would be interested to hear if anyone else has experienced this?

– XTR M9020 crank – Bent (twisted) the drive side crank arm during a pedal strike …it was a fairly solid strike but I wasn’t travelling particularly fast and wasn’t expecting that kind of damage.  The Burgtec pedal only had a little superficial damage and still spun true.

I still prefer the way Shimano shifts to SRAM (marginally) but I’ve not been particularly impressed with the reliability / durability.

so let me get this straight, you’ve had 3 failures probably due to user problems cable tension, pedal strike and too much cleaning, and this is shimano’s problem?

Alrighty then…

I’m not a fan of SRAM cranks, and brakes, but TBH, i’ve pretty much always mixed and matched my drive trains with SRAM cassettes and chains and shimano mechs and shifters…Always seemed to work well enough. I like that you can adjust the clutch on the mech, You’d have to work very hard to make me swap my Saint brakes when anything remotely SRAM-like, all the various iterations of Guide are quite frankly; gash. Shimano BB are sorted, and the cranks are bullet proof. I’m not a component destroyer so I’m happy to buy XTR and it’ll last a good 5-6 years before I even need to think about it. Put me in the Shimano column

he clutch starts sticking so the mech stays in the forward position when shifting from gear 1

I think this may be down to excessive cleaning and possible corrosion

Yes to both. I forgot about this, but I’ve also had this on an M9020 and it’s caused by corrosion of the internal needle bearings inside the “stabiliser unit” (aka clutch), probably from water ingress from excessive, enthusiastic cleaning. You can strip, clean and regrease them which helps, but once they start doing this. it’s on its way out. You’ll need two sorts of lubrication to do this: 1) a light machine oil for the needle bearings, 2) lithium grease for the clutch itself.

If it happens again (and you can’t warranty), it’s a cheap and easy to replace part available from SJS here:
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-spares/shimano-xtr-rdm9000-stabilizer-unit-y5pv98040/

I’ve done this on my mech and it’s been fine ever since. I also added more thick grease around the water ingress points to extend the life and so far, so good.

We’ve not talked about availability of spare parts, but I’ve always loved that you can get service parts for Shimano kit (at least, the higher end stuff). Is this the same with SRAM? I’d be interested to hear other people’s experiences here.

so let me get this straight, you’ve had 3 failures probably due to user problems cable tension, pedal strike and too much cleaning, and this is shimano’s problem?

He raises a fair point about general robustness. Having a rock strike write off an expensive crankset would probably annoy any of us. The cable issue I can’t comment on, but I’ve never had it in several years of using XTR kit.

There’s no question in my mind, however, that XTR is less robust than the lower ranges. But that’s what you get if you chase the low weight race kit – it’s not designed to be bashed off rocks every Saturday, it’s designed to work as well a it can in a race situation, at the lowest possible weight and this can mean compromises. I’m not being a Shimano apologist here, but just setting some expectations that if you choose XTR you should go into it with your eyes (and wallet) open.

 But that’s what you get if you chase the low weight race kit – it’s not designed to be bashed off rocks every Saturday, it’s designed to work as well a it can in a race situation, at the lowest possible weight and this can mean compromises. I’m not being a Shimano apologist here, but just setting some expectations that if you choose XTR you should go into it with your eyes (and wallet) open.

Which is why shimano (once upon a time) announced that XTR would become limited availability for pros/elites/race teams. As the weekend warrior with his bling XTR equipped trailbike was breaking too much and affecting the reputation (and doubtless shimanos warranty figures) of XTR.

The industry uproar (OK, more like grumbling) is essentially why we now have XTR trail and XTR Race (Should that be XTT and XTR?)

I’ve used Shimano 7/8/9/10/11 speed across mtb and 8/9/10/11 speed on road bikes and I’ll never use anything else. Briefly had sram on a codeine worked ok but wear was very fast !

As mentioned only issues have been dirty cables/adjustments etc :)

It’s not.

– You can change a gear cable without taking the top off the shifter, who ever came up with that idea wants certifying.

– The jockey actually last.

– Granted the finish on the cranks isn’t the best, but they’re very good other than that.

– Complaining about a proprietary BCD is counterintuitive when SRAM have their own proprietary ring mounting system.

– The cassettes don’t cost as much as a half decent BSO, yeah they’re heavier.

– The cassettes don’t cost as much as a half decent BSO, yeah they’re heavier.

Usual request for like for like comparison…

XT/SLX vs NX/GX

XTR vs X01

No Shimano XX equivalent…

– Complaining about a proprietary BCD is counterintuitive when SRAM have their own proprietary ring mounting system.

You mean direct mount? A really nice and simple idea that actually improves things and allows way more rings to be fitted to a set of cranks?

Usual request for like for like comparison…

It’s difficult when Shimano don’t offer anything close to Eagle, so like for like isn’t really possible, but, an X01 Eagle Cassette is £264 (Wiggle), vs XTR 11-speed at £135 (Evans). The SRAM list price is more or less double the Shimano one too.

I know that you get a lot more metal for the SRAM cassette (more carbon and titanium in the Shimano one though :) ) but you can’t get around the fact that the consumable elements of Eagle are universally more expensive than those of Shimano. It’s not like for like, but I’d be confident that if Shimano sort their 1x setup out properly, they’ll more or less force SRAM to get this pricing back into the real world.

It’s difficult when Shimano don’t offer anything close to Eagle, so like for like isn’t really possible, but, an X01 Eagle Cassette is £264 (Wiggle), vs XTR 11-speed at £135 (Evans). The SRAM list price is more or less double the Shimano one too.

You could just compare the 11sp offerings, you know like for like, you certainly get a lot more metal on your XT cassette than anything equivalent.

My xtr /sram/ kmc 11 speed is flawless! take the best of all of them

but I’d be confident that if Shimano sort their 1x setup out properly, they’ll more or less force SRAM to get this pricing back into the real world.

But they haven’t, and instead are making space for other companies, like Sunrace. Perhaps no bad thing, but it’s exactly what this thread is about: Shimano seem to be asleep at the wheel.

You could just compare the 11sp offerings

I could have (and, indeed, considered it), but I didn’t think that was the point here. The fact is that people are heavily focused on SRAM’s “big range” 1x offerings and it’s obvious that Shimano don’t have anything that’s even close to this today. I suppose the point I was making was that if noone provides competition, there will be nothing to peg the prices down and the result is cassettes that cost the price of a Halfords bike.

Personally, I think the sooner Shimano get their 1x offering in order (and I don’t mean a bigger version of their god-awful big range cassettes they do today), the better it will be for everyone, including those who prefer SRAM because there’s no way they’ll be able to keep charging these prices when there’s a real alternative available.

These companies are only as good as their last groupset and if Shimano have been late to the market, it’ll all be quickly forgotten if (when?) they finally come good. And I wouldn’t bet against them…

Our mtb biking group: doubt that the guys with the SRAM 1×12 would go again with this super-sensitive drivetrain. SRAM 1×11 might be great – but SRAM 1×12 means 1 day mud biking and 1 hour work to get the thing working again. The SRAM 1×11 or Shimano bikers already drink beer in this time…

12sp eagle group

https://www.merlincycles.com/sram-gx-eagle-boost-groupset-12-speed-107871.html?utm_campaign=googlebase-GB&utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=shopping&utm_term=MTB+Groupsets&gclid=Cj0KCQjwy9LVBRDOARIsAGqoVnvhKFn8ZB0rrQGZAKCP7PIkxf80RHCb3zvh2ARtDLmW4SozyfUIGwUaAvwNEALw_wcB

£340

11sp XT

https://www.evanscycles.com/shimano-xt-m8000-1-x-11-transmission-groupset-i-spec-b-32t-11-42-EV275659?lsft=esvt:55134-GOUKE2409948,esvq:,esvadt:999999-0-1223922-1,esvcrea:189741046303,esvplace:,esvd:c,esvtg:aud-302411051660:pla-298589298133,esvo:EV275659-170-BLK,esvaid:50080&esvt=55134-GOUKE2409948&esvq=&esvadt=999999-0-1223922-1&esvcrea=189741046303&esvplace=&esvd=c&esvtg=aud-302411051660:pla-298589298133&esvo=EV275659-170-BLK&esvaid=50080&gclid=Cj0KCQjwy9LVBRDOARIsAGqoVnuSVaemcNW5X9cvy62zmAn6366MdK2m1ccu4HFKzhnd-ehch3aka0MaAr5hEALw_wcB

£300

Which one is unrealistic?

I could have (and, indeed, considered it), but I didn’t think that was the point here. The fact is that people are heavily focused on SRAM’s “big range” 1x offerings and it’s obvious that Shimano don’t have anything that’s even close to this today. I suppose the point I was making was that if noone provides competition, there will be nothing to peg the prices down and the result is cassettes that cost the price of a Halfords bike.

I know it helps make the point but even the 12sp is coming right down, if you only look at XX you might miss the rest of the prices, like comparing XTR to a BSO

If I was buying a bike and it had SRAM kit rather than Shimano, would it be a deal breaker?

Hmmm,

Nah!

I’d see how it went and when things wore out I’d consider how they performed and if there had been no continuous niggles I’d probably just replace like with like.

As for the feel of shifting gear – the only shifter I’ve noticed being any different from any other was the front Sora shifter on my commuter which felt decidedly “clunky”. All rear shifters and mechs have felt the same providing I eased off when shifting and then let the pins and ramps on the cassette do their thing.

Thanks for the info daern I’ll give that a try.  Agree with what you say regarding XTR and to be fair to Shimano they have replaced 2 mechs under warranty (it’s 3 years on XTR kit) with no quibbles but slow turn around.  I don’t expect stuff to last forever especially when I clean it after every ride (no pressure washer!) but these mechs do seem to be susceptible to this …must try and reign in my enthusiastic cleaning :-)  The crank failure was disappointing but as you say they are light and you can only expect so much.  As I said the shifter issue was caused by an OTB crash the first time and I think the cable got caught on something in the process.  The second time it happened was just shifting into first …maybe a little too much cable tension before the mech hit the limit stop but suspect some internal damage after the first failure made it more prone.

Just for the hell of it, I thought I’d do a quick search for consumable items to compare. In fact, I’m surprised that the prices are actually pretty close across the board (apart from the cassette, of course):

SRAM GX Eagle 10-50 Cassette: £132
Shimano XT M8000 11-42 Cassette: £57

SRAM GX Eagle 12-speed chain: £20
Shimano XT 11sp chain: £26

SRAM GX Eagle Rear Mech: £75
Shimano XT Shadow+ rear mech: £54

SRAM GX Direct Mount chainring: £68
Shimano M8000 Chainring: £50

(I didn’t compare any after-market, off-brand stuff. I’ll leave this as an exercise for the reader)

It must be said that Shimano appear to have borrowed Subaru’s “ugly stick” when it came to the 11-42 cassette – a perfect example of a bodged answer if ever there was one, so although the GX Eagle cassette is a whole load more cash, you do at least get something for it.

Please don’t think I’m on a Shimano fanboy (the last two groupsets I installed for other people were actually both GX Eagle!), but I do strongly believe that Shimano are actually the better product engineers out of the two companies. It just appears that someone in their upper-eschelons has decided that 1x sucks and the whole company is following that line with the result that their product offering is compromised as a result.

To broaden this discussion slightly, though, I have SRAM and Shimano on various road bikes, and in this there is simply no comparison between the two – Shimano are head, shoulders and most of their torso ahead of SRAM on the road, with the possible exception of the very high end Red / eTap stuff, where SRAM have a great USP.

and the 11sp 11-42 Shimano equivalent http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/sram-pg1130-mtb-11-speed-cassette/rp-prod150696

was £54, still why not compare the 11sp like for like stuff ;)

Because Shimano are putting their wide range stuff up against SRAM’s 12-speed in the market and they have no equivalent. If you were using that argument, SRAM could just charge what they like as there would be no reason for them to do otherwise.

I’ve had a couple of friends specifically put off from Eagle because of the price of cassettes (which get ground down pretty quickly round here!) and when they decided on 11-speed, they went back to Shimano rather than SRAM because the USP had gone and they also considered Shimano’s offering superior, albeit with Sunrace cassette’s IIRC.

See it looks more like the cassette comparison is used to perpetuate the “expensive” line when the 11sp stuff is looking competitive.

Do the 12sp steel cassettes get worn down quickly or other ones? I got more life out of my 11sp GX than any other one for a long time.

If you were using that argument, SRAM could just charge what they like as there would be no reason for them to do otherwise.

All I’m suggesting is where there are direct comparisons available use them for comparison. The SRAM 10sp stuff is way better value than an XTR11sp but the comparison is pointless.Yes eagle is expensive to a point but for a high end groupset offering way more than anything shimano are i’d expect it to cost more. The well established 11sp stuff is offering a better range at a competitive price point with a lower weight.