When did Shimano get “rubbish”?

Ok, click bait title I know.

What I mean is that after running sram for years I recently went Shimano for my lads build out of necessity.

Firstly, XT used to be my “dream” build really. Worked great and looked just as good. Now it looks like a cobbled together prototype particularly with the ugly clutch “box” stuck on it.

Also, being able to turn the clutch on and off, why? To make it easier to get the wheel out? Possibly but srams simple cage lock is a far better solution anyway. The clutch also makes the shifting stupidly heavy in function. I predict my lads fingers are going to get a work out changing gear! Basically the XT mech looks like it’s been designed by a committee. Totally unimpressive.

Next the SLX shifter. Ok, it’s a lower groupset, i get it. I like the 2 way upshift trigger and I can even forgive the long throw of the down shift lever. Having taken off the gear window and fitted the blank, again it looks a bit cobbled together. Worse there is a massive “hole” in the casing where the triggers exit. It seemed deliberately designed to allow mud in! My cheap gx shifter has nothing like that.

Add the heavy shifting when the clutch is on and it just makes me think Shimano have kind of given up on Mtb groupset design.

Used to love Shimano, now it seems to be an also ran.

The end. 😃

IMO they went shit when they released 11-speed. My 10-speed XT/XTR drivetrains were ace, likewise the old XT M785 brakes were the dogs and I wish I never sold the few sets I had on older bikes. I had 11-speed XT for a while and it was turd. I’ve yet to ride a set of M8000 brakes that were any good. I doubt I’ll buy anything Shimano for a while!

XT/SLX isn’t a “necessity” build for a kids bike, if SRAM floats your boat more why not simply fit NX to save a few quid? Or was this a used parts build?

But yeah, once you get used to a certain manufacturers way of doing things, the alternative will seem different, you can only really decide if it’s worse once he starts using it…

I still miss the black and gold boxes circa 1990 – those were the days!

On the flip side, I have an M9000 XTR setup on my XC bike and my son has an M8000 XT setup on his (albeit with 155mm NX cranks) and both shift flawlessly in any conditions and have required remarkably little maintenance to keep running smoothly. I did have a set of XTR Race brakes swapped under warranty when the master cylinders started to bind (a known issue, apparently), but otherwise it’s all been fine and I love the absolute predictability of the overall package.

I recently installed a GX Eagle groupset on another bike and that went on pretty smoothly, although the setup was definitely more fiddly and required far more precise tweaking to get it working perfectly. It’s not my bike, so I can’t comment on the long-term use, but the shifting didn’t feel particularly light compared to the Shimano setup and I can’t get away from the robust price tag on the Eagle cassettes which always makes me cringe!

I still think Shimano make better quality kit, but they have been very stubborn and slow to move when it comes to 1x, sticking with their tried and tested setups when the whole world seems to have left them behind. That said, I believe they are rumoured to have a new 1x setup coming in the future and if they did, I’m sure it will be good and almost certainly better value for money than SRAM. Competition will be good for everyone here :-)

I’ve never had an issue with it. My 9yo inherited my 11-42 10 speed XT setup – shifter, mech, sunrace cassette and has no issues with it, and he’s a bit rubbish on his bike still. Much nicer than his big brothers X7 setup.

The newer 11 speed XT stuff seemed nice the short time I had it before I moved to a new bike with GX (which isn’t noticeably different to XT really – I was push push on XT rather than push pull).

I have the same XT/SLX (11spd) combo on my bike and when riding it doesn’t feel any different from any shifting I’ve used in the past 20odd years. (apart from from the brief dual-control period). I read a review of the SLX shifter that said something about it feeling crap compared to XT. I had to check I had an SLX, feels the same to me. Maybe I’m not sensitive enough…

11sp Shimano is easier to set up, stays set up better and is more durable IMO. Not much between Shimano and Sram in feel. Sram have the edge cassette-wise, but fortunately they work with the oh-so-ugly shimano mech & shifter.

I’m perfectly happy with my 11 speed XT setup and M8000 brakes, it’s just as good as my older 10 speed XT stuff on my other bike.

It’s not rubbish imo but I agree with lawman up the page, they lost their way for me when they went 11 speed. My 10 speed XT/Saint setup on the fatbike is absolutely superb, love it, the Saint shifter might never be beat. But the 11 speed equivalent basically just added weight and less nice lever feel. The cranks introduced a bullshit new BCD for no reason, and the brakes are still a bit unreliable.

Deore is awesome imo purely on value, but the higher end sets just don’t add enough. And SRAM 11 and 12 speed drivetrain stuff just absolutely destroys Shimano, they’re not even in the same fight- it’s like they saw GX Eagle and just went, nah, we can’t rival that so we might as well just stay in bed.

Absolute high point is still my 9sp grey/blue XTR shifters and rapid rise rear mech.

Brakes are powerful, but I’m fed up of the failure rate.

My 11sp SLX is good, but agree about the hole in the shifter, and you couldn’t tell if the cassette was SLX or Sunrace, where in the past I could tell I was on a good shimano and chain*

*probably around 2005…

Easy answer: stick to 8 speed 😀

And when did “get” start to mean “become”?

i might have imagined it but i thought i read somewhere you could adjust the clutch to get a lighter shift?

and, err, just because i answer questions a lot at work – you sure the cable is ok?….

Shimano XT M8000 rear mech clutch is serviceable & adjustable, I don’t think SRAMs are.

Never understand people saying the shifting is heavy with Shimano clutch engaged.

Not once have I thought it was anything like heavy.

Have Shimano 10 speed deore clutch mech on my hybrid and the clutch is adjustable, you need to remove the clutch cover to do so

Currently have Sram GX and XO on my two mtb’s

My previous mtb had Shimano XT M8000 and after 8 months i had enough of it, much prefer the feel of Sram’s shifting and braking

The only thing i do like about Shimano is the ability to push or pull the shifter to change gear where as Sram is push push

Never understand people saying the shifting is heavy with Shimano clutch engaged.

All three of my clutch mechs are heavy (including the brand new one). You can feel the difference when the clutch is off. On multiple shifts I can feel as the cage moves forward (resistance changes).

It does feel as though Shimano are now getting their direction from marketing people who work out what’s needed by doing focus groups, or trying out the marketing theory they learnt in college, rather than going out and riding bikes and talking to other riders.

The notable exception is the electronic shifting. Maybe that was done despite the marketing department, rather than because of it.

Drivetrain stuff from Shimano: still have XT on one bike (without any problems) but on all others Deore. When I rebuild older mtb bikes I use Deore. I love this drivetrain stuff. Shifter work all very good and last year and the Clutch on the rear mech simply works great.

Shimano BB: I use Shimano SAINT BB. One of the few BB designs which last a bit…

Hubs: very possible that I don’t know all the Shimano designs for hubs. But the XT hubs – front and rear are crap. If you are jumping they loosen up. Seals are bad. Freehub is bad.

Shimano brakes: Deore and XT are both excellent. Best bang for the buck is Deore again.

If the function and the price tag is o.k. I use it. I do lots and lots of mud biking and need replacement parts quite often. “Looks” and “haptics” and “weight” no issue for me.

And: still love 2×10 …

Now it looks like a cobbled together prototype particularly with the ugly clutch “box” stuck on it.

I’m not sure you can accuse Shimano of this compared to SRAM.

I think a lot of the comments on heavy shifting depend on what you’re used to. If you used Shimano 9 speed, it tended to have very lightweight, very low feedback shifting, I hated it but many people liked it. Whereas if you used SRAM 9 speed, it was heavier and clankier, and certainly wasn’t as quality a product but I much preferred the feel. And so did Shimano apparently because they made their better 10 speed stuff feel almost exactly like 9 speed X9. Hence Saint 10 speed being the best shifter ever- SRAM bolt-action chunk chunk and cable throw, with Shimano build quality and precision.But for whatever reason that’s not carried over into the 11 speed era.

@oldnpastit, Shimano do their market research with OEMs not end users- they’ve learned that if you can sell Trek 10000 forks with 15mm axles (for example) it doesn’t matter if it’s a shitty standard, it’ll run right over individual consumers buying 20mm because it’s better. They can sell their second rate 11 speed on price and marketability and momentum to bike companies even though they struggle to sell it to punters on quality.

@teethgrinder, my Shimano 11 speed XT levers look really nice but they clash together when you shift. The equivalent GX looks cheaper but it works better.

I have always run Shimano mainly due to every competitor in my price range, from Suntour, Sachs and campag through to SRAM never being as good imo. I have tried modern, posh SRAM and came away underwhelmed to say the least.

Currently have two modern bikes both running predominantly SLX 11sp. It’s great in a familiar Shimano way and does it’s job well. Brakes are Deore and XT, both of which have plenty of power and have been faultless although I just removed the XT in preparation for some Hope.

Shimano have also made the greatest gear set ever with rapid rise XTR. How I wish they did a modern version using the same beautiful shifters.

Oh, and never noticed a difference between clutch on or off during shifting. Certainly do when removing the wheel though!

I have sram on a few of my Trek bikes which they came with and its ok but never as smooth as some of my Shimano ones and the rear mechs are the most ugliest things I have ever seen hay ho to expensive to change them around the best sram I have is the 12speed now that works better.

Adjust the clutch (XT has external adjustment) so it’s just a touch more resistant when on than off. I’ve done it to all my 1×10 bodges, they work like clockwork.

Quite ironic the unsupported 10 speed bodge with Sunrace cassette is probably the best Shimano setup at the moment, bar the Sram freehub Shimano mixer setup which is the best!  cheap too, #makeshimanogreatagain

Never had a problem with the clutch – to the point I don’t bother with it & wouldn’t buy a clutch mech now anyway. Not unless I was riding pedally DH or XC style enduro. Never dropped a chain racing XC either. Chain guard? Way cheaper & doesn’t affect the indexing – that is if your 1x.

I think clutch mechs are a bit of a con..

Shimano XT M8000 rear mech clutch is serviceable & adjustable

Yup, just back it off a bit. Sram is agricultural and clunky in comparison. NX in particular is very sensitive to adjustment and alignment.

Im a huge saint shifter, zee fr mech, 10spd xt cassette for kids builds. Bullet proof and easy shifting with the saint lever.

42t and radr if you need the climbing gear.

Don’t want to agree with this but do.

Been reluctantly running sram 11spd for a few years and its been great. Back on shimano over winter for my rigid bike and it’s heavy to shift, loses its indexing and the crank arms are tatered, cosmetically. Gloss for crank arms seriously?

Shifting is agricultural too. XT.

Down but not out. Yet.

Wanted to hate sram, but my 11 speed experience says it’s way better than Shimano.

Ghost shifting in the rough (xtr and xt) and sloppy mech pivots in no time (xt).

Also, being able to turn the clutch on and off, why? To make it easier to get the wheel out? Possibly but srams simple cage lock is a far better solution anyway.

SRAM design can only work that way when you can’t / don’t have an FD. I know some see 1x as essential on MTBs and hate FDs and I’ve ridden 1x on and off for a long time, but I’m happy that Shimano kit works with a double up front for other uses, all-road bikes etc.

Both of my bikes have 11 speed XT drivetrains and I’m extremely happy with them.  Gears shift cleanly and I like Shimano’s ergonomics and reliability.

I find that SRAM drivetrains start to feel baggy quickly and they still haven’t got the hang of making jockey wheel bearings.

Shimano’s problem is the dominance of SRAM in the OE market and the rather conservative approach to product development.

I’ve only had one “modern” MTB, it’s got XT on it from a few years ago. I like the positive click on the gears, brakes could do with being a bit more positive.

I have Shimano 105 hydro STIs on my cross bike. They are awesome.

What am I missing with SRAM?

I don’t have an issue with 11pd Shimano XT M8000. I used to be SRAM only (9spd), which IMO was better than Shinamo 9spd.

The thing I dislike most about Shimano groupsets is the<span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”> chainsets. Shimano used to make great cranks and good chain rings. The silly bolt pattern of the new stuff is really off-putting. At least they still offer 3x chainsets if you can find them (or the chainrings for them).

there was a definite moment in the xtr spd pedal, it went from the best most reliable “fit and forget” pedal around to the worst piece of shit imaginable in a single iteration. It’s a completely different story on the road side of things only a single world tour pro team uses sram and a few campag die hards but otherwise a sea of shimano

I do get the annoyance at the chainring bolt pattern.  I’ve reverted to previous generation XT cranks on my main bike so that I can use a Hope 30T chainring.

I cannot tell any difference between these and brand new XT cranks via my feet, so I’m quite happy with the old(er) cranks.  I’ve not been shy in knocking SRAM for their adoption of pointless new standards, so I agree that the new chainring pattern on Shimano cranks smacks of the same.

I don’t think they are rubbish.

Although even I, as a luddite that only replaces stuff that’s worn out, or at least with one part being worn out as an excuse, am going 1x – but then again I’m sticking with Shimano as I can’t stretch to an XD driver and big range cassette.

The e-thirteen cassette going down to 9T with shimano mechs and somebody else’s narrow wide chainring seems like the best solution to me – but not got the cash for that cassette atm. I guess this does show where Shimano is missing a trick, particularly as they have groupsets that go down to 9T but just not for MTBs, but then they’re keeping hub compatibility which is good for me for now!

I’ve always found that the older stuff tends to work better from Shimano, SRAM does seem a lot more fussy and a bit less tolerant of wear and tear, so shimano shifters and mechs for me. Plus the dual release is good even if I usually use it push/push.

I think we’re in one of Shimano’s lower periods, they tend to go through cycles in making great stuff and then simply lacking innovation and churning it out. I think the interesting question is what they’ll do about freehubs since I doubt anyone will be particularly interested in another standard popping up, but they need to get somewhere nearer to thte level of Sram cassettes.

It also feels like XT has become a bit low-rent, more of an SLX and there’s a fair gap to XTR in terms of price and quality. I run an XTR shifter and chainset with an XT rear mech and Sram 1175 cassette and performance is great, but I wouldn’t normally be an XTR man, SLX/Zee was about my level when it comes to drivetrain that wears out and gets knocked about.

They just seem ultra-conservative.
Their reluctance on 1x has cost them dearly.

I was very surprised to see the new YT bikes all move to Shimano – Seemed like a compromise with that e13 cassette.

Now I’m thinking about it, I’m always amazed about SRAM cranksets – they fit with a combination of a cheap wavey washer, some grease and by tightening a bolt up to massive torque like a square taper crankset. And if there’s play, you’re told to add more grease and tighten it up harder. And then there’s the “mud gap” down by the bottom bracket, almost asking to be filled with grit. It’s perhaps no wonder that GXP BBs have such a short shelf life.

A friend has a YT with an eThirteen crankset and on the two times he’s had to service the BB, he’s had to cut it off with an angle grinder and get a new one under warranty from YT because it was completely seized on despite it being properly fitted and greased each time.

I know these are perhaps isolated examples, but the Shimano Hollowtech II has always seemed a cracking piece of design, with a simple pre-load adjustment and low torque fasteners. If I had one wish it would be that the pre-load didn’t need a special tool so it could be setup on the trailside, but otherwise it’s a really good piece of engineering. I removed my M9000 crankset last night for the first time in a year and was able to service it with one special tool (preload tool), a single allen key and a couple of gentle taps from a plastic hammer to get it past the BB bearings. Beautiful.

Shimano’s engineering has always been very good – it’s their product decisions that are more questionable, particularly around 1x as others have mentioned. I suspect we’ll see a change in this in the near future with a new freehub design to go with it…