What is the general consensus on MTB tandems?

“…he specced the bike with as chunky stuff as he could get…”
That’s what I’m thinking if I end up buying that new Viper frame. I’ll be looking for new and second hand downhill stuff like rims, brakes and forks to build it up.

How does a USA bike shop sell a Nicolai frame that’s not on Nicolai’s own web site ?

By using very old photos and not updating their website?

All Nicolai frames are built to order and all tandems are full custom. They don’t sell in volume so Nicolai have taken it out of their ‘standard’ range but available on request. Direct sale through us as distributor.

I’d have thought the full sus version would be based around an Ion frame now. Would be very cool – if I can only find a way to persuade Katie.

I’ve only ever had a go on one uphill and that was pants.
Don’t know if I’d want to get in on this, though.

Any opinions on this ?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Viking-Saratoga-Tandem-/290834796467
Local to me and the current price is less than two hours hire from that shop near Ironbridge.
Fully rigid, but it’s got disc brakes, so it’s easily upgradeable.
Looks worth a go to me to ride on tow paths, family routes round the Wyre and Sustrans routes to see how we get on.

Going back a page, MTG was asking about cranksets. AFAIK you need specific cranksets for a tandem as the pedals need to be reverse threaded on all except the stoker driveside.

I’ve also considered running a right hand drive train, using a something like this on the outer ring – that way I can run 24/36 on inner / middle and 36 timing chain with bashguard to protect it

Doing that allows you to use 2 regular cranksets – the “reverse” threading is needed because you need chainring tabs on the non driveside, so you you have a right hand drivechain then the cranks can be normal

I recall on-one used to do something similar to the Hope chainring / bashguard, anyone recall what it was called or know if it’s still available?

At that price, it’ll be fine for trying tandeming on easy trails. If you don’t like it or want to upgrade you will get most of your money back, and you’ll be able to go out when you feel like rather than going out in horrible weather cos you;ve rented it and need to take it back

SJS used to sell converted chainsets, ours has Middleburn tandem cranks, I think it’ll come out again soon, maybe towing the bobyak, for extra length. Should be fun out on the Surrey Hills – and for Polaris if they’re doing proper overnight camping again.

The missus and I got a Ventana El Conquistador as a wedding present built with Middleburn tandem crankset, White Brothers Magic forks (some of the only forks that are tandem rated), 203 rotors and an XT V brake as a drag brake too.

Amazingly good fun, and we had planned a load of riding while we’re off for Christmas but relentless rain is putting paid to that.

A bit more searching, and it looks like the Viking Saratoga/Serengeti are around £410-£450 new, although I can’t see exactly what the difference is for £40.
Nobody seems to have the Saratoga in stock, £409 looks the cheapest for a Serengeti.
They seem to get good reviews, for the price, on various tandem and other forums too.

I think I’ll bid on that ebay one, and if I don’t win it, get a new one.

some of the only forks that are tandem rated

Gramatically quite poor.
Some of only a few…?
One of the only…?

Our tandem is great fun. I really don’t care if it’s trendy, cool, nerdy or whatever.

Since Madame has got a taste for riding a solo MTB our KHS hasn’t been used much. They’re fun, yes, but they’re also hard work. We raced it which was even more painful, especially on my ears. I should sell it but riding it once in a blue moon is enough to stop me advertising it.

A Formula brake with a floating 225mm rotor is the best stopper we’ve used so far. No trouble with Marz forks but we’re quite a light couple.

Going back a page, MTG was asking about cranksets. AFAIK you need specific cranksets for a tandem as the pedals need to be reverse threaded on all except the stoker driveside.

Technically dead right, however……

it does work with ‘normal’ cranks. I’ve an old RF crank fitted the wrong way round as the captains cranks. I swapped the spindles in the SPD’s so the pedals weren’t back to front, then threadlocked them into the cranks. I put a line of paint across the end of the spindle and the crank so I could see if the thread backed off, and after 2 years its not moved at all.
The rear timing side is a normal square taper drive side crank with the outer ring tabs ground off. Again the pedal spindle changed for RH thread and threadlocked. The other benefit is we now run 22t timing rings, so loads of clearance for steps & drops.

There’s no way we’d be without our 20t granny ring. 20/34 bottom gear is great for Scotland. And us being unfit 🙂

Rob

This is our home built 29er from a 26″ hard tail frame. 600 mls now and we are really hooked! Even in this weather and mud – understeer on the front, oversteer on the rear and spinning rear wheel; drop into a rut and it’s full-on concentration not to hit the sides until you can find a way out. Very technical in this weather but we figured that if we can get it mastered in the winter then we will be stomping in the summer if ever it stops raining.

We run the timing on the outer rings of two old shimano m960 chain sets – use a 10 speed narrower chain on the timing so that you don’t get conflict with the drive chain when it moves over the right on the smallest cassette cog. Change the 32t middle for a 36t and that’s fine for a mtb tandem.

If interested this is a link to the photo album of the frame and tandem build: https://picasaweb.google.com/112598676564367425025/FullSuspension29erTandemBuildFromA26erHardtailFrame?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCLbx9-fMzr_YpAE&feat=directlink

Definitely a yay. Treated ourselves to an immaculate but old Cannondale MT800 last year, its setup for the road and we’ve got loads of use out of it. Trying to convince the girlfriend to let me put some off road tyres on it and take it on some trails. Already upgraded the rear brake to a Hope V2, if she likes the trails then a new fork will be called for.

When we got our tandem finished it was the other way around my partner Angie wouldn’t go on the roads!

Rob.

Do you not find the 22t chainrings wear realy fast?

Well that’s a very good question? I have already swopped it over twice due to chain suck but not sure if it’s really been wear or just the really sticky mud. But I haven’t been using new ones but a selection of middleburn and others but never xtr. I have just fitted a steel 22t blocked out with washers to get the spacing; so hoping that will hold up for a while.

Oops sorry – just spotted the chainring question was for Rob.

😀 Sorry I didn’t make that very clear.
I was talking to Rob Tandemwarrior about his 22t timing chain setup.

Do you not find the 22t chainrings wear realy fast?

Not noticed any wear at all so far. I’d read on Double Forte that it could be a problem with this set-up, but the chain gauge says its all fine. I use a singlespeed chain on the timing side, no idea if they are more durable because they don’t need to flex side to side. The timing rings are standard Middleburn. It does need very careful adjustment of the EBB though, the chain tension is very sensitive.

The previous build had FSA 34t timing rings with abash ring at the front, which had been on about 5 years. Before that it had the Sugino rings that came on the original Cannondale, they must’ve lasted almost 10 years, which might explain why they were so heavy!

Nail, know what you mean about ruts! The first time we took the Cannondale to the Peaks, I got us in a rut, couldn’t work out how to get out, so bailed out- only to see Sandy going past still sitting on the back. Oooops 🙄

Rob

That’s a bit backwards isn’t it? 😕 Even the old archived 2009 site says “all tandems are custom built”… so were never really “standard range” anyway.

Having absolutely no mention of it (tandems) on the current sites (The German one, the UK one, the direct order generator…), I don’t think I would be the only one thinking “oh, they don’t even bother saying they make custom tandems any more”, then looked elsewhere (eg: Ventana).

Admittedly, tandems don’t exactly sell like hot-cakes (size and perceived/very-real costs)… though having at least say one photo of a Nicolai tandem, perhaps kitted out with Pinion (is it even burly enough for a tandem?)… and a little text “hey, we still do these to order” or “here’s the last tandem that came out of our workshop”.

On the other-hand… I guess it does keep out time-wasters that keel over, never to hear from them again after they get “sticker shock”. 😉

How is the home-brew tandem holding up? I presume you don’t do mad-crazy-gnarr on it, have the (older) Hope M4 brakes been up to the job for tandem duties?

How is the home-brew tandem holding up? I presume you don’t do mad-crazy-gnarr on it, have the (older) Hope M4 brakes been up to the job for tandem duties?

jonstanley – Thanks for asking. It’s been going really well; we had never ridden a tandem until I finished building this. In fact when I told my partner, Angie that I planned to build this, she was dead against it and wrote it off as another hair brained scheme; now I can’t get her off the back. In fact though, she is starting to suffer athritis and carpel-tunnel syndrome in her hands and wrists and as we average about 3,500 mls a year on our mountain bikes she was starting to suffer problems after long rides; obviously on the back of the tandem she suffers no such problems. To begin with we were finding it much harder work than our solo bikes but then studying our gps we realised our average moving speed was significantly higher and the problem was that we were both trying not to let the other do all the work! As Captain the first 100mls was pretty stressful for me – stressful on my arms and stressful on concentration; but that’s all in the past now as we are relaxed and really working as a team – and now it’s lots of fun. My most used command from the front these days is “Power” as we found that negotiating tight singletrack bends and corners around the trees is most sucessful if I can concentrate on the steering and balance whilst Angie stokes the extra power on, in order that we don’t stall and fall into the turn.

As far as the tandem itself – well the first thing we addressed was the tyres; we went from the Ardents to high volume Specialized Captains with much more grip in the mud; but we are now using Bontrager Mud 29 X 2.0 and those are definately the tyres for this weather with significantly more control especially on the front wheel. I did beef up the rear seat tube as I could see that the stresses from the rear suspension pivot would likely be a problem, especialy after the welding; I (sledge) hammered a section of tight fitting seat post down it, which now runs from the BB up to the level of the Rock-Arm Pivot (which still leaves plenty of seat post adjustment. I still keep a close inspection after doing heavy duty outings as stress faults can take a long time to show themeselves; but if it proves necessary I will weld a 45deg. gusset from the top of the pivot to the underside of the rear cross tube (probably something I should have done at the time of the build) – I still have plenty of paint to spray it back in. Regarding the brakes I have to say that I am a total fan of Hope products and the M4’s have easily enough power and torque to deal with braking – the problem though is the heat build-up from long downhills with the resulting brake fade. Fistly, I have never used standard brake fluid in any of my bikes – I always use (Automec) Silicone fluid which is a non-hydroscopic Dot 5.0 fluid developed by the U.S Military – it is non-corrosive and has a very high boiling point and is compatible with all brake systems (including Shimano). Originally I had 203 Floating rotor on the front and a 180 rotor on the rear but I quickly upgraded the front to a 225mm floating rotor and moved the 203 to the rear; now that’s what I call brakes! as long as the forks and wheels can take it! …… and speaking of wheels, in fact, they have been my greatest concern but so far 600mls and no problems. I am a total tubeless tyre convert and went over to using Stan’s rims a few years ago, (I even mix-up my own white latex liquid as a refuse to pay £20 a bottle) and so the wheels for these had to have Stan’s rims and so initially not wanting to lay out loads on wheels for a project I did not know would work I aquired a well used set of 32 Spoke Stan’s 29er Arch rims on Formula Hubs – well I can only say that I am gob-smacked – I tweaked up the slack spokes when I bought them and at the moment they are still holding to that truing. I am just waiting though for the Hope Hoops 29er Flows to start comming through with new Flow ‘EX’ rims and I will probably go for a set of those; I have no problem in my mind that 32 spokes with those rims will do the job.

As far as doing ‘mad-crazy-gnarr’ on the Tandem my prime concern has to steadily build-up, both mine and especially the confidence of the Tandem Stoker – I figured the worst thing I can do is scare the Stoker! … whatever keeps your partner happy is what makes the tandem work … this has been my objective. Having said that we are truly surprising ourselves and we are now going down singltrack that we never thought we would be able to achieve on the Tandem. In fact we have been down some that Angie won’t ride on her Solo and then I just say ‘see how easy that was?’ The 29er wheels definately help; we tried some rides with 26″ wheels but the 29ers just even it all out and gives us the ground clearance that we don’t have to worry about the chainrings – I just had to learn to delay the pedalling longer than a solo so that I don’t end up causing Angie’s pedals and crank to impact the obstacles.

So apologies for the lengthy response for what could have had a short answer; but for anyone reading this who does not yet have a mtb tandem I think a quote from Confusus (or some Chinese philophiser) is called for … I think he said ‘life is a series of experiences’ …. so if you keep riding out on the same old trails time after time …. then I can only say “get yourself a tandem”. A new challenge and new experiences and see those same trails from a new perspective … you’ll love it. Have Fun, we are.

Having “raced” an MTB tandem for many years my top tip is to “let it roll”.
The long wheelbase and extra weight mean it’ll generally follow the track & roll over stuff that a normal bike would bounce off – just keep scrubbing the speed. It does take some wrestling round corners though…the pilot will feel it in their arms and especially the wrists. The stoker will be helped by some kind of suspension (we used a suspension seatpost) for unexpected bumps when they are concentrating on pedalling.
Since the stoker can’t generally see the trail, a code helps – “LOG!” and “RUT!” were common, “HOP!” and DROP!” more fun. “BAIL!” was another favourite…
It’s actually a bit easier for a stoker to bail off a tandem than a single bike as you generally don’t go over the bars & there’s a fraction of a second more time to react.
Crashes can be fun. I had a few times where the stoker face planted into my back. In the days of rim brakes we once peeled a rear rim into flailing hot strips of jagged aluminium flat out down a fire road in Dalby. Also once didn’t realise she had bailed and left her half way up an Avalanche cup course in Morzine.
Oh, and, of course you can sit up on the back and have tea and cake!
It’s a blast – go for it!

Ha ha I love your description petethegeneral.

I also love being the stoker and much prefer being off road.
Another factor is the stoker can carry all the stuff and concentrate on the scenery and in my case wildlife spotting. Of course if you do spot any wildlife you can then just sort of whisper into the captain’s ear, instead of shouting across the track there’s a …., too late it’s run off.
We’ve not taken ours to a trail centre yet, so that’s the next thing to try out.

@nail: Thanks for the mass of information! My only concern is the usage of DOT5.0 in Hope brakes… thought the seals don’t like anything other than glycol fluid (ie: mineral oil or silicone?). Of the high-performance brake fluids… wouldn’t something like Castrol SRF be better? 😕

I always had the “tandem bug” though back in the youth days it was two battered old BMXes cobbled together. Hired a road tandem at the beginning of this year for a day and had an ace time riding a 40km loop around the Black Country. One section of unpaved road going through some private estate(?) which was muddy, small stones and slippery woke me up and kept me honest as to my bike handling skills. Kept the tandem upright, staying off the brakes to let it roll… though having the front and back of a tandem slide around underneath you on slight off-cambers is very unnerving!

The current plan is to built up an MTB tandem on the cheap. And on the cheap means it’ll have to be a rigid bike. Will have to see what I can figure out…

My only concern is the usage of DOT5.0 in Hope brakes… thought the seals don’t like anything other than glycol fluid (ie: mineral oil or silicone?

Jon – it is a ‘silicone’ fluid; it is what the classic car enthusiasts also use. I have had it in hope and shimano brakes (I have shimano dual brake / gear shifters mixed with hope m4 calipers on two bikes and the fluid has been in there for nearly five years – no problem.

When you start looking just decide whether you want to go steel or Ali – some makes like the Viking tandems do the same looking frame in both materials. Your definatey right in the u.k it is almost inevitable that you will have to go for a hardtail; there really isn’t any sensibly priced options for a full suspension and that is why I did my own conversion.

Nail, excellent post, and I recall us going through the same learning curve 😀
Hang on, we’re still on the learning curve after 14 years!!!

Rob

We just bought this for £280.

160mm front and 140mm rear cable discs. 😯 They are useless.
I’ll have to see what I’ve got in my spares box. I’m pretty sure there’s a set of Hope M4s and Magura hydraulic rim brakes, so that will be the first upgrade.

Alas mine has now gone to a new home in Scotland. We will certainly be getting a new one in a year or two (once JRTG junior is a bit bigger).

MTG, that’s a good start, my wife loved ours so I hope you get many hours of fun. Even if most of the journeys are pub runs like ours was! 😀

Having absolutely no mention of it (tandems) on the current sites (The German one, the UK one, the direct order generator

Point taken. I’ll add something to our site…

@nail: Shimano floppyshift with Hope callipers, you’re a braver man than I! 😉 Interesting to know the “silicon” fluid works with your setup over the years. 🙂 Tandem-procurement-wise… I’m in even more of a bind by being not even in the UK and am in Hong Kong! Quasi-homebrew might be the ticket… need to do more research!

@simons_nicolai-uk: Just me havin’ a good whinge… though I hope the updated website will point some people in the right direction if they’re short-listing a tandem manufacturer to get something from.

Saw one in the Portes du Soleil last year. Full susser. Absolute mentalists!!! Dont think I could ever trust someone that much but they were faster than a lot of people on the trails riding solo.

petethegeneral – Member
CountZero – that would’ve been me looking apprehensively at the baggage handlers throwing the bike box about!
It was a GT as it happens…on the way back the Turner was in the box too!
GT now gathering dust in a garage somewhere. Turner now enjoying daylight again occasionally.
Tandems are a blast! Great downhill and a good leveller of fitness – if your partner is a racing snake or a mess you still stay together on a long ride.

How are you Adrian?

Hey Pete! What a surprise. 😀
Sorry, didn’t check out this thread after my post, so somewhat belatedly I noticed it had run for three pages and thought I’d see what was going on. Good to see you’re still around and well.
I’ll be in touch, it’s rather late now, so speak soon.
All the best, and Happy New Year, as well.

I’ve put 180mm Hope Mini brakes front and rear for now, as I’d already got them. I’ve only ridden it solo so far, but it’s a lot better than it was.

Next question is tyres;
It’s got Kenda 2.3″ Kiniptions on it.

I’ve got a pair of brand new 1.8″ Charge Splashbacks that I won at Erlestoke.

The Charge tyres have got to be better off road, but is 1.8″ going to be OK on a fully rigid tandem ?

Bigger tyres are much better, we had a 2.4 on the front and 2.2 and 2.4 on the rear. The person on the back can’t see the bumps to prepare so any lumps go straight through their spine.

Sus posts really help too.

big as you can go for both tyres and brakes. 203mm rotors and 2.4 tyres front and back for us. Those thinner tyres might be ok for road work but off road, go big

As above. The answer to most questions related to tandem kit is ‘the biggest possible’ !!

OK thanks, I’ve fitted the`IS 180mm brakes as I already had them. I’ll start looking for second hand post mount 200mm brakes.

Any recommendations for specific tyres ?
Generally, it looks like bigger tyres are for DH. Should we be looking at DH tyres because of the extra weight, or would XC tyres be OK ?

Kenda do the SB8 in 26×2.35. I use SB8s on my 29er and find them ideal for the mix of roads and trails I ride. Would they be a good choice for a tandem ?

A bit of searching and the 2.3 Kenda Kiniptions it came with are about 800g.
26×2.35 folding SB8s are 1100g 😯
26×2.3 wire bead WTB WeirWolfs are only 795g and less than half the price. They look a good choice on paper.