UK Government Thread

New builds aren’t the key issue here. Existing building stock is absolutely dire compared to most of the rest of Europe. In the context of Net Zero by 2050, around 80% of existing building stock will still be in use in that timeframe. We need a fully funded retrofit insulation plan for these buildings, including training installers etc in order to ease the path to net zero. This is one very small measure, but it is pretty much universally accepted, from the Chris Skidmore (former Tory MP) side of the arguement, right through to NGO’s such as Greenpeace* and Friends of the Earth.

*This is a campaign that I actively lobby for as a Greenpeace activist.

I have insulated and draft proofed my flats – the difference is astonishing.  They were particularly bad being lath and plaster walls in attics

We live in a modest 1950’s 3 bed semi, when we were renovating the living room we discovered the 3 foot cavity beneath the entire house, luckily we were in a position financially to be able to adapt and insulate. The cost wasn’t great and extended the work by a measure.

There are identical properties to ours in the street that are rental, I’d hate to think how much energy/money they’re hemorrhaging in the winter.

I do not have the numbers but I think a programme of house insulation could well be a significant carbon saver.

Yeah, we rationalised it as short-term pain for longer term gain. The test will be this winter when the heating goes back on to see the impact. The house had already had cavity and loft insulation, I’ve improved the loft with fresh more efficient stuff. The outstanding jobs are insulating the two bay windows, especially the upstairs bedroom.

Hoping all this work and time will pay itself back as we’re not moving anywhere until one of us needs a bungalow!

I do not have the numbers but I think a programme of house insulation could well be a significant carbon saver

Very hard to answer with a definitive figure, but in short, yes it’d have a huge effect. Domestic heating is around 17% of C02 emissions in the UK. To quote Chris Skidmore (shudders) the cleanest energy is that which we don’t use.

It looks like we now know why Mel Stride was employing the masochistic strategy of doing all the morning media rounds before the election. He too has now declared his interest in being Tory leader. Will this be another one every day from now until November in their bid to lead HM Opposition?

A very good summary by John Crace..

Enter the Rolling Thunder shit show

Finding Labour a bit dull? Fear not, the Tory fun factory is up and running | John Crace https://t.co/MoHxHGSh51

— John Crace (@JohnJCrace) July 25, 2024

I actually enjoy watching the tories now on TV as they have no power so I can just laugh at the shit they say rather than worry about what they are coming out with.

Domestic heating is around 17% of C02 emissions in the UK. To quote Chris Skidmore (shudders) the cleanest energy is that which we don’t use.

My flats were very poor from an insulation point of view.  the one done a while ago has perhaps saved 30%, the one done morw recently and done better has saved more like 50 or even 60% of energy used to heat them

@Kerley – whats most hilarious about it is watching the likes of Kemi Badanoch, who’s supreme levels of arrogance and self-regard has led her to be in some form of delusional denial, that somehow she’s still in power. Somebody really needs to take her to one side and have a quiet word

This is priceless. Badanoch is condescending, patronising, bitter and just generally unpleasent, while Rayner just stares back, laughing at her and not havnig any of it, happy to let her get on with just embarrassing herself.

One of the most disgusting examples of bad behaviour to another woman that I have ever seen. @KemiBadenoch is a disgrace. Bitter, patronising & deranged. The type of woman who likes to feel superior by trying to tear down other women. It will end badly for her. @AngelaRayner https://t.co/gxEZk0386i

— RV ? ?? #FBFE (@RaVe_74) July 20, 2024

I can’t wait for the full on rats-in-a-sack stuff to start

TLDR : “my colleagues were useless shitbags… over promising without any intention to deliver… so it stands to reason yours will be to“ …. “Deporting people to Rwanda and denying them asylum is essential for UK home building plans [and no doubt anything and everything else you can think of]” … “the Leeds riots [ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ]”

Sorry, I’m not listening to 13 mins of Kemi Badenoch this early in the morning without the aid of narcotics

Understandable. You don’t really need to. She’s particularly vile, even by her standards.

I really hope that the bookies are right and she does become Tory leader. The Tory membership may all love her but she’s so thoroughly unpleasent on a personal level – arrogant, aggressive, patroniising and condescending – that she’ll be an absolute gift to Labour

Yep, hoping for that too.  She may take back a few of the **** who vote reform though but then again, a black woman – so maybe not so much.

I’d imagine energy efficiency mandates would simply push them even further out of reach of your average person or family looking to purchase a property

I don’t think it works like that.  House prices and land prices are extremely elastic.  A large part of the cost of a housing development is the land, and since land only has value based on what you can do with it, the price of the land is the price you can get for all the houses you can build on it minus their cost.

In other words, people can only afford to pay so much for their houses, so if you make them cost more to build then the landowner gets less.  Boo hoo.

Back in Labour land.

More silly fantasy economics coming from Reeves – but will be interesting to see what she does do to Taxation.  I wouldn’t like to predict anything but it will be pretty tame I’d imagine.

Don’t want to upset those fantasy wealth creators!

Rachel Reeves expected to reveal £20bn shortfall in public finances

⁦@jessicaelgot⁩ you must know that the concept of a currency issuing state like the UK having a “shortfall” is nonsense. Why do you cont. to print the lie uncritically? Gaslighting. https://t.co/Z95w3Lz7Ep

— David McNab @mcfab@home.social (@DavidMcNab17) July 26, 2024

Besides even based on regular OBR neoclassical data the shortfall was known months ago. So the fact that it’s coming now as a surprise – not really, anyone can get access to this info.

Constant play ground economics like this will get us  nowhere.

So the fact that it’s coming now as a surprise – not really, anyone can get access to this info.

It would be surprising indeed if the government of the day was allowed to keep the nation’s finances secret and away from prying opposition eyes.

It would also of course mean that Rachel Reeves could be less than honest with apparently complete impunity.

It does crack me up, some of the Tory leadership candidates. Mel Stride, bless him, literally his only qualification for the job is that he was willing to defend the indefensible on a daily basis throughout the GE. The sensible ones went on holiday!

Badenoch is toxic, really can’t see her appealing to the public. If she wins I think that she’ll be unlikely to last as long as the GE.

It would be surprising indeed if the government of the day was allowed to keep the nation’s finances secret and away from prying opposition eyes.

It would also of course mean that Rachel Reeves could be less than honest with apparently complete impunity.

Or that the Tories have been cookng the books? I know its a difficult thing to get your head around, with them being such upstanding pillars of honesty and financial good practice

Remember that one of the biggest (of many) crisis the new government is about to face is the tripling of spending on kids with SEND*. They changed the funding model (10 years ago) so that the obligation was transferred wholly to local government from central government, but that (unfunded) increased spending was kept ‘off the books’. This is about to hit home big-time and amounts to tens of billions in itself.

I’m sure there are plenty more of these kind of little treats waiting for Rachel Reeves and co, that they’re now going to have to deal with

* God only knows how, given the absolutely woeful provision

@rone, what language would you like the press to use instead of “shortfall”? Or indeed the worse language politicians love to use: “black hole”?

As far as the Tory leadership race is concerned and Tim Tugenhats recent defection to the wilder, Bravermanesque fringes of the right, Ian Dunt nails it again…

The truth that dare not speak its name – The Tories did not lose because of the ECHR. They lost because they were shit. And until they recognise that, there’s no way back for them.

They were a bunch of clowns, using clown techniques in clown projects to attain clown outcomes. Those NAO reports are a final testament to their criminal negligence. And until a Tory leader can read them, concede their points and admit them openly, they’ll stay in the toxic wasteland where they belong.

what language would you like the press to use instead of “shortfall”?

How about they actually explain what it means instead of pretending that it’s the same as we would experience if we didn’t get paid? There may well be a deficit between forecast spending plans and future tax receipts, and on the surface that looks bad and Labour can make political capital out of it (which is what Reeves is doing with her ‘audit’). In reality though it doesn’t actually matter, because that ‘black hole’ doesn’t actually exist or matter because the govt can simply create the money to fill it.

Instead of pretending that the govts finances are the same as a family’s or business, Reeves could tell the truth and explain that the govt is going to run a deficit with the aim of generating economic growth as that deficit will represent a cash surplus in the real economy which will be invested and spent on goods and services. She could also then explain that while that happens, the govt will continually be monitoring and forecasting inflation and will take appropriate action when the need arises by raising taxes and other measures. She won’t do that though will she? Because there’s no political advantage in it.

The debate shouldn’t be whether there is a black hole in the nations’s finances, the debate should be about how that money should be spent to provide the most benefit. As usual though everyone is obsessing about how much money we have to spend rather than what we need to spend it on. Nothing much will change until this upside down mindset is reversed.

I( too could not watch that Badenoch clip.  ~What a vile woman she is.  I think she counts as a Christian nationalist – a rather nasty mix of fundamental Christianity and right wing nationalism.  Her faith gives her the certainty she is right and thus she hectors and is patronising.

If the tories do go for her they are truly fubar.  I think the MPs will keep her off the final 2 ballot of the membership – they know how toxic she is

In reality though it doesn’t actually matter, because that ‘black hole’ doesn’t actually exist or matter because the govt can simply create the money to fill it.

They could, but it would have the same effect as Kwarteng’s surprise budget did.

 that deficit will represent a cash surplus in the real economy which will be invested and spent on goods and services.

you’d have to add the words “I hope” at the end of that sentence rather than horded.

the govt will continually be monitoring and forecasting inflation and will take appropriate action when the need arises by raising taxes and other measures.

And this is where MMT falls down. We’ve literally just been through high inflation where the government of the day was proposing tax cuts as the solution, and indeed making rumblings about B of E independence being ended so that interest rates could be cut. ?

I think she counts as a Christian nationalist – a rather nasty mix of fundamental Christianity and right wing nationalism.

She apparently claims to be an agnostic but “cultural Christian” whatever the **** that is…… secular Christian?

Tugendhat on the other hand I believe is a practising Catholic. So Badenoch should be your choice if you would rather a non religious type

And this is where MMT falls down. We’ve literally just been through high inflation where the government of the day was proposing tax cuts as the solution

It’s exactly the opposite. It’s why MMT needs to be properly communicated and acknowledged rather than dismissed or denied. Economic policy is driven by ideology rather than reality. If we remove the ideology and short term policticking, we could actually have an economy which works for everyone rather than a tiny few vested interests.

So Badenoch should be your choice if you would rather a non religious type

*shocked pikachu face*

If we remove the ideology and short term policticking,

“If”.

There are loads of economic theories that should work if only people would understand them and behave properly.

In a democracy, when there is inflation and the cost of living is rising, there will always be populists who want to give people more money in their pocket.

There are loads of economic theories that should work if only people would understand them and behave properly.

The bit of MMT which explains how govt finances work with fiat currencies and deficits isn’t a theory, it’s a description of reality. The ideology around economic policy is the wllful obfuscation and misrepresentation of how everything works so that policy can be focused on benefiting elites rather than the public at large.

The bit of MMT which explains how govt finances work with fiat currencies and deficits isn’t a theory, it’s a description of reality.

“All models are wrong; some are useful.”

I think you are overstating the evidence for MMT. IANAE and I presume neither are you. However I can see no evidence that what you say is established fact in economics, outside of limited economic schools of thought.

However I can see no evidence that what you say is established fact in economics

Yeah you’re right. Fiat currencies, central banks and govt accounting practices don’t really exist. The earth is also flat, climate change is a conspiracy and the world is governed by lizards.

Yeah you’re right. Fiat currencies, central banks and govt accounting practices don’t really exist. The earth is also flat, climate change is a conspiracy and the world is governed by lizards.

Strawman

Strawman

Troll

Lovely stuff.

Aaaanyway….. What’s the crack with the Badenoch stories floating around? I’m reading something about a blog?

I could be totally wide of the mark, but I really don’t think she’s all that popular amongst MPs….. they’ll eventually whittle it down to two to put to the party members….is she going to get that far?

As someone above said, it is nice to watch the infights without worrying about what fresh hell they’re about to do in power. Of course the Tories as a vacuum of sensible opposition will mean Reform getting more coverage. The Lib Dems need to go back into GE campaign mode, or certainly Ed Davey does. Hardly heard a peep from them! 70+ of them and plenty of sensible ideas, I’d like to hear more from them.

QED.

Just harking back to the snippy reply I got on the Netanyahu/Sharon point – does anyone actually think we’ll see Netanyahu in the dock or at The Hague? Seriously?

But, in any case, it is the right thing for our government to do. On that, I assume, we might agree.

The tetchiness on this thread is already reaching Rishi levels.

I don’t think it works like that.  House prices and land prices are extremely elastic.  A large part of the cost of a housing development is the land, and since land only has value based on what you can do with it, the price of the land is the price you can get for all the houses you can build on it minus their cost.

In other words, people can only afford to pay so much for their houses, so if you make them cost more to build then the landowner gets less.  Boo hoo.

House prices are continually increasing and any around my way that have any green tech are more expensive, by a fair margin, than those without. Therefore I don’t think it works how you think it does either. People on average salaries aren’t affording to either upgrade their current house or move  in to a more modern one with newer greener technology. It needs big subsidies for existing  stock to be upgraded and reasonable caps on pricing for new.

The biggest con with solar, in my mind, is the crappy rate you get for selling units back to the grid… it makes it a lot less attractive.

I’m not nessesarily insisting you should be able to sell back at the full price you buy units for, but it seems to me there is a huge disparity.

Just harking back to the snippy reply I got on the Netanyahu/Sharon point – does anyone actually think we’ll see Netanyahu in the dock or at The Hague? Seriously?

Do you think any scenario of this ends in anything but disaster, say an actual nation does apprehend him, sends him off to the Hague, you now have given the Israeli’s even more ammunition to become more isolated, more threatening and it’ll cause absolute chaos with nations pitted against each other over it, the next option is someone grabbing the headlines by trying to ‘citizens arrest’ the leader of Israel, flanked by his heavy security, that will end messy as well.

The way this whole conflict has turned out, it’s only going to reduce through the US getting tough, or citizens of Israel actually asking questions and pushing for change internally.