Stanton Sherpa gen 3

Saw this mentioned the other day, piqued my interest, investigated further.

Site implies that you can get a Taiwan made 853 sherpa for £650. I though that this seemed reasonable as Cotic, Pipedream, etc. do the same. A video on Facebook mentions in passing that the Taiwan frame is just 4130. Rechecked website but nothing about this.

Seems a bit off to not mention this anywhere (and over priced) to me. Just thought others should be aware in case they made the same mistake and ended up with a 4130 frame by accident expecting 853.

I thought they were all UK made and you had a choice of Taiwan Chromoly , UK 853 or Titanium.

I don’t imagine for a second that the Taiwan one is 4130. Stanton is a no compromise company and they’re using Taiwan again due to Covid and temporary staffing issues.
It’s 853, just quicker than having a custom Uk frame mid lockdown

Explicitly says 4130 and Taiwanese made 10 seconds into this video

Looks like compromises have been made in material but not price and this isn’t being made clear on the website.

Taiwan version is £650. UK made is £999. That’s a big price hike in a few months but a lot has changed in manufacturing terms since then. That’s standard pricing across all their steel hardtails. Makes me super happy I got my Switch9er pre-covid.

Is it just me or do they look like they have been sprayed in halfords rattle can coloursand some free stickers put on off a magazine. Mate had a Sherpa and got rid of it after trying to love it, didnt really get it when i rode it, didnt feel any more special or springy than anything else, they look so overpriced now and the spec on the first ones awful. Terrible gears, crap wheels etc

I think what bugs me most is that they don’t say that it is 4130 (so likely heavier or weaker depending on how it is specced ) . All the descriptions say 853. Is this actually miss-selling ?

And £650 for unspecified 4130? Not a chance unless reviews are 11/10! If the 4130 is good enough for the frame why go to all the trouble of having an 853 frame regardless of where it is made?

Two of my favourite bikes ever (Singular Swift and on-one 456) were 4130 but neither were piss takingly expensive or advertised as something else!

Maybe time to scratch that cotic itch. Once they have some nicer colours coming back obvs. Cotics should be custard yellow, kermit green or burning orange.

I love the design aesthetic of the frames but the geo is all a bit short for me.

That’s not good from Stanton. Firstly there is no mention of 4130 Sherpa frames on website, so that is mis leading. Secondly £999 for frame is ridiculous. Stanton are getting greedy. I had a 2nd gen Sherpa, and really liked it. Cost me £600 with headset

That’s not good from Stanton. Firstly there is no mention of 4130 Sherpa frames on website, so that is mis leading. Secondly £999 for frame is ridiculous. Stanton are getting greedy. I had a 2nd gen Sherpa, and really liked it. Cost me £600 with headset

£999 is for a UK made frame – that is actually cheap for a UK made 853 frame. A Shand will cost you a chunk more than that, even for their standard (non-custom) frames.

And £650 is expensive for Taiwanese gas pipe unless there is something special not being disclosed!

Dont think its quite taiwanese gas pipe. Its still heat treated 4130 steel which if i remember correctly is exactly the same as Reynolds 725. This is the heat treated version of Reynolds 525, which was a replacement for Reynolds 531, which Carl Strong refers to in the link below as being “legendary” and “famous” and this man knows his bicycle tubing.

Also remember that whilst we love the badges saying Reynolds 853 and 631 (none moreso than me as i’ve owned plenty) some companies may only use one or two tubes of said tubing in their frames. The rest will be 4130 steel. That doesnt mean they’re sh1te by any means they’ve just be chosen to meet a certain criteria. Could be (is) to meet a price point. Plain and simple.

Bicycle Frame Tube Information

https://archive.ibiscycles.com/support/technical_articles/metallurgy_for_cyclists/the_basics/
https://archive.ibiscycles.com/support/technical_articles/metallurgy_for_cyclists/steel_is_real/

“Secondly £999 for frame is ridiculous. Stanton are getting greedy.”

Try running a manufacturing business in the UK and then revisit that judgment. I run a similar business and am in the process of having to increase our prices on a whole load of products, not because we’re greedy but because I’d like the business to survive.

Maybe have a think about how many pounds per hour you’re paid and how long it takes to make this product. Then add up the material and tool costs. Then add in all the other business overheads, which are always considerable (rent, rates, insurance, utilities, NI, pensions etc).

Sadly the reality of the modern world is that almost everything you buy is cheaper than it should be because other people have to suffer worse lives than you to make it more cheaply, be they on ships, in factories, down mines, etc or because their lives are suffering due to pollution etc from unethical business practices.

The only thing I would say is it isn’t clear on the website about the difference in material between the two frames, unless they have changed it since I last looked?

No issue with their prices. But the page for the steel Gen 3 Sherpa only mentions 853 as the material. It gives you the option of UK or Taiwan made when purchasing on the same page. Nowhere does it say the Taiwan is not the same spec. That’s just fraudulent (if true that it is not 853).

Or you could have a Pace RC529 for £599
https://pacecycles.com/pages/rc529

What Stanton offer is a choice.

These are not volume and I think they care about what they do.

And they want to make a living from it.

If it is too ‘rich’ for you there’s always on one, etc…

Personally they don’t sell what I want at a price I’m prepared to pay. I’m glad they serve others requirements. I do have a mk 2 frame in the loft though… 💁🏼‍♂️

The price is less of an issue than the apparent deception.

The price is less of an issue than the apparent deception.

To be honest I thinks it’s more that they’re ‘homegrown’ and not exactly slick… rather than necessarily deliberate (I’m with you though, it’s a bit shit).

The website isn’t exactly detailed…

In the video he does say it’s heat treated 4130. Without the Reynolds sticker and UK production costs and welding costs, I’m guessing he can keep his bikes available at the existing price point. As Haggis says that’s at least equivalent to 725 from a Far East supplier if it’s not ‘air hardened’. ‘Heat treated’ tubing is premium steel. I think Ritchey does the same thing. I remember Ritchey saying it was for a wider range of tube specs/ sizes. Maybe so..maybe it was cost.

People have been asking about reshoring jobs back to the UK and the availability of a UK designed, tubing, welded and painted frame from him. To that end he is to be supported and saluted. Quite why he hasn’t set up next to Reynolds factory I don’t know.

I agree the website needs to make it clear, and I’m sure it will in due course. If I paid £600 expecting a Reynolds 853 sticker (and why not it is aspirational as a cyclist) then I’d be disappointed not to have it.

To compare the Ritchey Ultra 29 is £850 with a similar spec: ‘heat treated triple butted’ – not Reynolds – tubing.

I’d drop them a line and ask them for confirmation. I’ve spoken to Dan a couple of times at various bike shows and he seems like a pretty straight up guy. I don’t think he’d be deliberately misleading people. But agree there’s definitely some potential for confusion as the website says 853 and the video says heat treated 4130.

I kinda like them and think of them as a slightly more niche Cotic.

Covid hit, I had manufacturing staff going into selfisolation and welders leaving, no way of making frames, it also was not really the environment to be advertising for new jobs, and Reynolds also closed…. I had to think out the box. I pushed forward with frames being produced in Taiwan from their local steel. The 4130 frames are triple butted to our specifications, trying to get as close to my Reynolds profiles as best as I can so as not to affect the ride quality. Tubing makes a difference in the end cost of the product, however I’ve not gone for the cheap option here! But it’s mainly the Yokes and dropout style and the fact that my design is harder to make, and the fact that all painting is done in house here in the UK for all products that reflects the price. The website is brand new and not finished, we do need more info about this new knee-jerk option to this difficult situation and it’s coming…
we have had 1,000,001 things to sort out due to a global pandemic and its subsequent affects. There’s no deception here and a statement like that just really evidences to me how ignorant and bitter people can be. We plough in 12 hour days day after day to render the best service and the best products that we can bring to this industry to serve peoples joy of riding. I’m also not a “greedy” person, I’m trying to feed my wife and family and sustain a business so it can keep the families of the people that work here too.
To read shit like this is painful and disrespectful, and I deeply and sincerely believe that you could not do a better job.
We still offer UK made Reynolds frames but no way can we make them for nothing and £999 is a more than fair price for custom finishes, full UK made, UK Reynolds tubing.

To read shit like this is painful and disrespectful

Don’t let the keyboard warrior knobjockeys get you down and keep up the good work 👍

Well said Dan, and cheers for providing the (obvious) context. Still love my 1st gen Sherpa.

I agree with Simondbarnes here. I bought my last hardtail from Dan, I know the quality of the product is superb. Having visited their HQ and it’s clear that they have a great and dedicated team and have taken a huge commitment (Under normal circumstances.) to building in the UK too.

Great work Stanton crew!

The business model is close to that offered by Chromag despite Chromag not using Reynolds on their expensive options and their expensive options being far more expensive. Have a look at some of the US companies for example Breadwinner cycles. Their frames are around $1800 which once imported is like for like in pounds. Makes Stanton seem like a good deal to me. I certainly couldn’t be happier with mine. Away out to do a bit of night riding on it just now actually 😉

Would really like a nice 853 Sherpa at some point. TBH, I just wish that the keyboard warriors could just stop and think for a minute before lashing out in a public way. A quick query direct to Stsnton may have been met with “Oops, sorry, subdue needs updating. We’ll get on to it!”.

Chill out Dan, it’s only a few people being a bit silly.

Thanks for taking the time to clarify what the frames actually are and where the costs comes from. You may have won a sale from your honesty and candour.

However

There’s no deception here and a statement like that just really evidences to me how ignorant and bitter people can be. We plough in 12 hour days day after day to render the best service and the best products that we can bring to this industry to serve peoples joy of riding. I’m also not a “greedy” person, I’m trying to feed my wife and family and sustain a business so it can keep the families of the people that work here too.
To read shit like this is painful and disrespectful, and I deeply and sincerely believe that you could not do a better job.

no need for this; you admitted your mistake and cleared up all of the issues. Leave it there don’t attack potential customers (even if you think we are being ****). It isn’t ignorance or bitterness causing this, it is taking your business and it’s website at face value. I don’t know you, or the wider Stanton shop folk, I have nothing to go on other than what you put out there and I assume that a shiny new model on a website will have been listed and checked (unless it is On-one/PX….) to make sure that it is accurate.

In hindsight I probably should have checked directly with you first, so I’m sorry if I have caused you upset or distress. But please fix your website before someone orders one expecting 853 and gets in a real tiz about it.

Stanton HQ = The epitomy of a transparent and ethical business. A factory that opens it doors to any interested biker, cutomer, person…. Shows them round, talks bikes, engineering, ethics, economics, family life…. lets you ride a couple of bikes around, makes you a cuppa!! And this is the CEO wwe’re talking about! If anyone is ever feeling a little jaded or in need of some perspective, go and hang out in their HQ for an arvo. Do a bit of volunteering, help them with their website or something… FFS. I mean what kind of mug would choose the Bike industry as a way of making quick money? Competing with Giant and Trek and Evans and CRC and Wiggle??? I’m glad Dan got a moment to respond in person on here. Hashtag UKbikebuildersmatter

Did you know that all 853 is also 4130?

The miracle of Reynolds marketing and chumps trying to break down materials names into single word descriptions of materials with multiple properties is at fault here.

Reynolds uses their numbers as a unique identifier for how and what their material is, how its been butted and what treatments its received.

4130 is a metallurgical descriptions only.

You can’t even compare the two directly, but people do, repeatedly, in total ignorance.

If some one says ‘its 4130’, you also need to ask how the tubes have been butted and and what kind of other treatment they’ve had.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_Technology

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/41xx_steel

When I got my Slackline I spent a fair bit of time chatting initially to Beal, then Dan (as he’s the designer and understands the metals more) about my frame before the trigger got pulled.

I’m amazed at the number of people who’ll just blindly buy something like a frame from an outfit like Stanton without first discussing what sort of riding they have planned, and what in that range is better for that.

Dan took the time to explain to me the material choices in each frame, and what might give me that feel I’m after from a bike, and to be blunt, I simply couldn’t be happier with the bike I made from that frame.

Given the whole situation with Covid, and the complications that have arisen, I think the explanation is a decent enough one, and call me mad, but if the man who designed the frame and specified the materials told me that the tubes they’ve chosen for that frame are the right ones for the job, as someone who just rides the bikes, I’m going to take that advice and go with it.

The website might need updating, but I’m not aware that you can actually buy one of the gen3 frames yet can you?

As a Sherpa Mk1 owner I too questioned the price of the Gen 3 UK built frame. On their Instagram page there was a post from a few weeks ago asking for questions about the new Sherpa for Dan to answer on a Q&A video. Might be worth putting something on their for him to answer directly.
They’ve posted a video on their YouTube channel today and although it might be about their Ti frames I think it’s shows the attention to detail that Stanton Bikes puts into their work.

I don’t think anyone is questioning the attention to detail on the bikes, or the choice of material in fact. It’s just you need to be 100% clear to people what they are actually buying.

There are obviously extenuating circumstances, but to me if you are going in and updating your website to allow ordering of a different variation of a bike, then you need to take the 5 minutes at that point to also alter the text on the website describing the variations of the bike rather than doing it a few days later.

Anyway, still love my Stanton – from back in the day when £385 would get you a 631 frame ;)

I had a look at Cotic’s website and there are direct contradictions there too. It’s very difficult to keep on top of everything when you have a small business. I was finding mistakes on my website for months after it was set up.
Some folks are pretty wet behind the ears when it comes to economics. Better get used to it as the £ is going to lurch further downwards in addition to WTO costs. What seems a bad deal now might look pretty good in hindsight. I just wish I could ride the Solaris and Sherpa back to back to see which suits me better. My old school Inbred 29er is almost as long in the tooth as me and geometry has moved on. Fine trekking bike though, not that that is allowed at present.

@cloggy – Depending on when lockdown is over and where you live, Stanton and Cotic HQ are a 30 minute drive from each other. You should be able to sort something out to demo both bikes on the same day, or make a weekend of it and go for a blast in the Peak District.

I can’t see Cotic opening to the public any time this summer. I’d imagine the Sherpa is a bit more sprightly uphill and the Solaris is possibly a better technical climber and more planted in high speed downhill. I like that the Sherpa is 100 to 130 rather than the Solaris 120 140. There is a bit of a gap that the Sherpa fills as everyone is pumping out 120 + trail weapons whereas I want a quick durable bike on natural non technical terrain. I live in an area of so few people that the trails are all grassed, they get so little use. I realised that the demographic was changing when folks started complaining that there was too much grass at our local events, that and idiots leaving gates open as they were trail centre fit but clueless about the countryside.

Its interesting that Spa cycles sells its Wayfarer disc tourer/ gravel frame in ovalised Reynolds 725 for £399. That includes an ED coating, a steel fork with mounts, three bottle mounts, headset, rack and mudguard bosses and canti mounts additional to disc mounts. So its not without its features. No chainstay yoke though to pay for. Just saying. Thats a small outfit and a niche bike too. Quite how much is splitting fixed overheads over a limited number of frames compared to less mark up if your also making money on a broader range of equipment I can’t say. I like Stanton, would love a Sherpa. I’m not sure how much is ‘Brexit, the pound etc” and how much is just business model though.

This thread has made me think – as an owner of a Taiwanese 853 frame with a lifetime warranty, in the unlikely event that my frame were to break, would the replacement be Taiwanese-made 4130 or UK-made 853?