Spray-foam Insulation

Hi,

About 18 months ago, my parents were scammed into having spray-foam insulation installed in their loft.

Fast-forward to now, my parents have moved into sheltered accommodation. Dad is deteriorating massively with dementia, Mum is frail and tired. My sister and I have LPA, and are selling their house for them.

We agreed a sale back in the summer. The buyer has had a survey carried out, which recommends immediate removal of the spray-foam insulation. The survey also says that as the roof is coming towards the end of its lifespan (50/60 years), removal of the foam is likely to damage the bitumen felt underlay, so chances are, new roof is needed. Buyer is therefore asking for a reduction of £15k (on top of the £25 deduction from the original asking price).

The property is a modest 3-bed detached house on a cheaply built early 1970’s suburban estate of privately owned homes.

So … I have questions:

1. Anyone had to have spray foam insulation removed? How easy is it? What’s the approx cost?

2. Is it worth me getting a second survey? The surveyor used is RICS, so I assume independent and fair? So, likely no benefit in me paying for another report?

3. My initial inclination is to agree a reduction equivalent to the cost of spray-foam removal. I don’t see why I should stump up for a full new roof, entirely for the buyer’s benefit? AIBU?

4. The buyer hasn’t clarified whether their lender is refusing to lend unless the spray-foam is removed. I’ve asked the question, but if this is not a condition of the mortgage, but merely (strongly) advisory, am I entitled refuse a further reduction given that I’ve already agreed £25k off the (already low/realistic) asking price?

Anything else I should be thinking about/doing?

Cheers.

No idea on cost but I was at a home of some one who had had it done 1900s large cottage the first sale had fell through because of the foam so the guy moved back in (rented to x wife) before .

I’ve never seen such a mess to remove it new roof and battens and skips full of rubbish.

If you have bituminous felt it will definitely not survive the removal.

New roof time and sell it as a bonus selling point.

The survey is for the buyers benefit, you don’t have to do anything based on the outcome of it.

The survey is for the buyers benefit, you don’t have to do anything based on the outcome of it.

Its not quite as simple as that though, is it? I need to make a decision about how to respond to the buyer’s request for another £15k off the sale price.

A  lot of lenders will flat-out refuse to lend on a house with this spray foam, it’s viewed as a severe risk as it hides any damage to the roof and also encourages rot issues.  A friend was looking at a house with it freshly installed and they couldn’t get any lender to approve it.  They did eventually buy that house but the owner had to get it all removed at a cost of £11k, a big hit considering it cost £6k to have installed!

The whole thing has the whiff of another PPI scandal about it.

The sad news if that someone is stuck with (probably) replacing the roof.

I would find the cost of the replacement roof and then negotiate with the buyer about who pays for what. I think you can sell them the benefit of a small reduction on price and they pay for the new roof. Just think of the benefits to them of this lucky chance to buy a house and get the roof done exactly as they want it. So much better than you just sticking up the cheapest thing you can get away with.

Perhaps they would like to use the opportunity to add a couple of Velux windows and make an attic room, perhaps the want solar installed at the same time. So many options and such freedom for them.

What is the cost of removing the foam and replacing the bitumen underlay vs the cost of a new roof? Split the cost on that basis.

I work in the PU industry and helped develop these materials and equipment ~ 30years ago.

The sprayed foam itself is fine – it’s a good insulant and completely inert once applied and cured, the issue is the cowboys that moved into the game. As mentioned above it covers up a multitude of sins (and is effectively marketed as such “got slipping tiles/slates because the nails are knackered? Spray foam!). It also stops air flow and the roof space from ‘breathing’

It could be slowly and painfully hacked off the joists/roof beams but no chance of the felt.

New roof time.

I had a job of which part was removing spray foam from timber. It was small areas in a reasonably accessible space. It took absolutely ages and was exceptionally difficult to remove in its entirety.

I can’t imagine how hard it would be to remove a whole roofs worth, or how much it would cost.

if you need to complete the sale of the house soon, then it will be question of ‘nerve’ between you and the prospective buyer, and how much each party wants the deal. Until you have ‘exchanged’ either party can back out if some aspect is not right for them, and offer to only continue at a new price, but any offer does not have to accepted.

You could decide not to accept any further reduction, and if they do nto want to proceed find a new buyer.

Estate agent should be able to advice if it worthwhile taking house off the market , having it reroofed and any other work required and putting it back on the market. If you are with a full service estate agent and they are not giving you advice you might want to consider changing the agent, subject to minimum length of engagement. Of course all depends if you have access to money to pay for the work.

At the least the next step is probably to get a some quotes for reroofing, and availability so you understand the situation – reputable roofers may have work booked up for 3 months.

If they can get a mortgage to cover it, I’d drop the price by £15k and be shot of it, if this falls through you might need to fork it out anyway to remove the foam, replace the roof plus delays in sale and the hassle. People wont oay a premium for a new roof.

First thing is I’m sorry to hear what you are having to deal with. I think I’d just drop the price and be done with it, why have this hanging over you and your sister when you don’t have much time left with your parents

Our next door neighbours had to have it removed for their 3 bed semi detached sale to go through. It cost them £5K in Essex and it appeared to be a messy job but the company did a great job of clearing it up.

Without getting rid of it the purchaser couldn’t raise a mortgage so if that sale fell through they were still going to have to do it (unless someone was buuying it outright).

Anything else I should be thinking about?

I’d say the main question is whether or not the sale will fall through if you don’t meet their demands and how much of an issue that would be for you if it did. I think it’s a reasonable demand from the buyers, if you need the sale to go through I’d maybe offer to meet them half way and knock another £7.5k off (but they still may feel they’re in a stronger position and refuse). Or if you don’t need this sale to go through then tell them to jog on.

Sorry to hear you’re going through this. Ask the estate agents advice about what it’d be worth with a new roof (I’d guess more or less the same).

Id forget the original price drop – presumably the price was dropped to get it to sell, therefore that is what it was worth in the market you sold it in. That’s the baseline. Personally removing the roof sounds like a huge pain in the arse, esp at this time of year, so I’d take the hit and make it someone else’s problem.

The above post re designing some new space is a good one.  I am having an extension done and to develop some usable space above the garage isn’t that much extra.  I m putting veluxes in, insulating and boarding out.

Re survey speak to agent, next buyer will have same issue.

Ask the estate agents advice about what it’d be worth with a new roof (I’d guess more or less the same).

That would be true if the existing roof was merely nearing the end of its lifespan and needing work soon. In this case the value of the house is compromised by this as many people wouldn’t touch it or can’t borrow against it.

One of our neighbours is having it removed currently. I say removed but in reality that means a whole new roof. The old has been cut out in chunks with what sounds like a chain saw. I think only the major roof joists have remained. The bits in the skip are an interesting mix of wood and foam.

Your choices are

1) Suck it up, and take the £15k hit ( or possibly a bit less if you can negotiate it)

2) Tell them to jog on, they may continue with the purchase anyway but, honestly, you’re the one with weaker hand. Plus, you’re going to have exactly the same issue with the next buyer.

3) Get the house reroofed yourself. This is bound to be the best part of £15k, it will add nothing to the value of that house, plus your have the hassle of doing it.

I’d be going with 1), but trying to negotiate them down.

The answer entirely depends on how much interest you had at the original asking price – were you swatting away the buyers or was it a relief to get an offer? The market is the ultimate arbiter of value, not the estate agent.

Is your parents’ standard of care reliant on the sale?

How quickly do you want it gone? Presumably catered for in the suggested price range?

If re-roofing is a strong possibility then recommended selling price less the cost of a re-roof should be your lowest price, IMHO

Thanks for all the advice and supportive comments.

I’ve booked a couple of recommended local builders/roofers to come and have a look and give quotes, so I’m armed with a bit more of my own information.

I’ve asked the estate agent to call me and get a view about the current housing market and the potential risks/benefits of putting it back on the market. I’m fully aware that the foam insulation is a problem that’s not going to go away; it’s whether we stick with the current buyer, or whether we get the work done and return the house to the market with the issue resolved and a new roof, and the likelihood of then selling for a higher amount. I’m not going to be unrealistic about what I think the house is worth, but equally, do have a responsibility to maximise the return for my parents’ benefit (especially since my Dad is due to be discharged from hospital this week, with a much more expensive care package needed by the care team at their current sheltered accommodation)

I’ve emailed the company who installed the foam; I don’t expect to get anywhere with that, but the survey states the foam was incorrectly installed, so we’ll see.

Look at cost of removal, type of foam (some is much easier to remove than others, it should say which was used on the installation certificate) and cost of a re-roof.

If the property has a 50-year-old roof as it is, then offering half the cost of a re-roof off the price may be an acceptable solution.

If you do accept the £15k drop, make it conditional on absolving you of any further indemnity for the roof, even if there are issues unrelated to the foam.

Also my parents have had this done. They are currently cognitive enough to sort it out themselves… they haven’t done anything yet.

There are probably as many cowboys removing foam as putting it in so tread carefully

I did find a company who vacuum it out. They appear to be credible https://www.vac-xtract.co.uk/spray-foam-removal/

If you can make it their problem, for £15k, I’d say take the hit.

I’m having similar discussions with my mum. She had it put in (after I said not to) and has only just paid off the loan for it (that I said not to take out). Is now being chased by removal companies (none of which I’d trust)… and is settling on leaving it in situ for now… leave it to me and my bro to worry about later.

and is settling on leaving it in situ for now… leave it to me and my bro to worry about later.

Probably the best option if not they are not looking to sell anytime soon.

Give time for understanding of the issue to develop and mortgage lenders may take a more lenient view as they accrue more experience of the issue.

When we bought ours we negotiated based on survey. In a couple of cases they agreed, in some they said it was reflected in the asking price and the rest we met somewhere in the middle arriving at a figure that made us feel better and get the house and them get enough money.

The buyers aren’t being unreasonable, it’s just a negotiation. I’d want to sense check 15k. If that’s from the survey and it’s anything like ours was it will be at the upper end of the likely cost.

Personally I wouldn’t mess around trying to rectify it. Probably a chunk of work and cost.

Give time for understanding of the issue to develop and mortgage lenders may take a more lenient view as they accrue more experience of the issue.

And in the meantime, assuming no leaks etc, should keep the bills down.

It’s all different if selling now though… it’s going to cost no matter what… I’d pick reduced selling price over having to sort it myself though. Others might have someone they trust to put it right… for both buyer and seller… but if not… take the hit… run away.

Take the money.

The scaffolding alone will cost more than you think and that’s before any extra works appear while the roof is off.

….. And even then you’ve got to find another buyer!