Redundancy experts assemble! Can you reject an alternate job and take the cash?

I have a friend (not in a union) who is in a bit of a quandary. He’s being made redundant and has been messed about by his work, long story short he was asked to interview for another (slightly more junior) role and has now been offered the role with the same T&Cs and salary. Whilst this messing around was going on he was proactive and being an employable type of person, interviewed and has been offered another job somewhere else.

This other job is fairly attractive (comparable salary, something different, can run to work) so he’s quite keen to take it; ideally with his (fairly sizable – much bigger than statutory) redundancy money.

Having looked into it seems (https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/leaving-a-job/redundancy/your-employer-offers-you-another-job/) that you can reject an offer of alternative job if they don’t follow the correct procedure or for another ‘good’ reason.

So a few questions to the more employment law orientated amongst you…

If the company makes you go through a formal interview process, does this still count as an alternative job offer?

Is an effective demotion (previous role has been split into two, one lower and one higher – he is being offered the lower one) a good reason to reject the job? They’re offering the same money as his old role but this means there is pretty much zero head space in the pay band and it’s a dead man shoes type of company. Status is mentioned as a ‘good’ reason on a few websites – I assume this would count.

If he rejects the job, for the lower role reason, can they then change his redundancy to be just the legal minimum?

Is there any downside to asking his employer whether, if he rejects, they’re still expecting to pay him his redundancy? I figure there is no downside, as he’ll find out whether they’re planning to be dicks about it.

Should he ask his employer whether the job is open to a 4 week trial period? If they say no, I assume this means that this isn’t an alternative offer of employment as the 4 week trial period is a key characteristic…

On the face of it non of those seem like a reason to be able to state the job is not satisfactory.

He needs proper advice from someone he can explain the nuances to tho.

Protected salary – hours the same, a bit less status. its suitable alternative employment to me

Ok thanks – so a drop in level isn’t sufficient status reduction?

And making someone interview for a role is still ‘an offer’?

I’ve also suggested he get professional advice.

Just tell him to turn up pissed for the interview

If he’s that disgruntled why not take the stat redundancy and take the other job?

I think the point is as he has now been offered a suitable alternative he can’t take the redundancy so if he chooses to leave he is resigning and will not get a payment.

It does sound like a suitable alternative to me but if the new (different company) job is better why not move anyway?

https://www.gov.uk/redundant-your-rights/suitable-alternative-employment

Gov.uk website in semi-useful shocker.

Status is mentioned. AIUI, if the role is a genuine “step down” then you are entitled to refuse the job.

However, depending on the terms in place at the company in might not be a corporate step down. e.g. if he’s currently a VP and is staying a VP in the new role then that isn’t a status change, despite being in the “junior” role.

If he has a solid job offer, he might as well take it then refuse the demotion and be belligerent about it so the current employer decides it’s better to just pay him to go away. If that doesn’t work, surely a consultation with a proper lawyer would be sensible if there’s a decent amount of money at stake.

Ok thanks – so a drop in level isn’t sufficient status reduction?

Depends…..if they moved him from an executive role to being the cleaner, even if pay and conditions are the same then you’d have an argument. A change to a similar role, probably not.

Even then, demotion of role might still need to be proven as constructive dismissal which is nigh on impossible (although this is different here because it’s part of a redundancy process rather than just reducing a role to piss him off and make him leave)

Having been through similar recently (the latter of the above rather than the former) I’d suggest to the company that he isn’t happy with the demotion, and reduction in job satisfaction and perceived status and value to the company, and see if he can get them to make him a settlement offer. Might not be as good as the previous redundancy offer, but might get something and then he can leave with a reference and go to the other job. Gives the company a get out too, so they can get rid of an employee that isn’t happy any longer.

Of course if they know he already has another job, they can just bluff it out.

Failing all that – if he isn’t happy, then leave for the new job and forget the redundancy he could / should have got…… life’s too short to do a job you have lost the enjoyment of.

Companies seem to find it almost impossible to do redundancy fairly and legally. Usually the best advice is to wait until they cock it up then threaten a tribunal for unfair dismissal and accept a compromise agreement to shut up and go away.

As I understand it all you get if your company get the rules wrong is compensation – mainly for lost earnings – which if you walk into another job with no break will be very low indeed.

Can one of the experts confirm if that’s correct?

Wait so he’s found another job and is wondering how to get the biggest chunk of redundancy pay?

Take the new job, be happy.

Rule 1.

Outof breath – yes that is the case if it goes to tribunaland you win. However going to tribunal costs a company thousands usually and also bad publicity so often one the companies legal bods find out the mess the management have made of the redundancy and that they would lose at tribunal they are prepared to offer a compromise agreement ie a chunk of money to shut up and go away

is he called boris?

It’ll be written into his redundancy contract – he has to have this looked over and signed off by a solicitor anyway, so a solicitor will be able to tell him where he stands on the matter.
Someone on the Internet, who hasn’t seen his redundancy terms as written, cannot possibly advise on the issue!

As I understand it all you get if your company get the rules wrong is compensation – mainly for lost earnings – which if you walk into another job with no break will be very low indeed.

Can one of the experts confirm if that’s correct?

Correct; so instead the usual mechanism is a settlement agreement (used to be called a compromise agreement) where you agree to go away and be quiet about the **** up in return for some cash (and a reference, don’t forget the reference)

To offer a bit more clarity – he’s got the offer from the company – the chance to be drunk in the meeting has unfortunately passed.

From the above it looks like he needs to take advice from a specialist – just wondered if it were cut and dried.

Can anyone recommend an employment solicitor in the south east who will do telephone consultations? (PM me if you can and I will pass on)

Thinking about it, it doesn’t need to be someone in the South East if it’s a phone consultation… just needs to be available to talk to today

A solicitor won’t come cheap, even for a consultation. Try ACAS first, they can’t give you advice on the merits or otherwise of the case but they can give you advice on the actual process and legalities of what company is doing etc.  That might be enough for what he needs to do for now and then he can decide to speak to a solicitor if he needs to afterwards. They were excellent when I spoke to them.

Why does he think the post offered is not suitable? Or is he just trying to manipulate the situation to get more money?

I’d have thought that the time to reject this new role and aim for redundancy was before applying for it and attending an interview. Surely that horse has already bolted

The interview could be to assess if it is a suitable alternative post?

I think tho from what we know it is suitable alternative post and therefore no redundancy

Once again – the only way to know for sure is an employment solicitor – available via your union for free

I’d have thought that the time to reject this new role and aim for redundancy was before applying for it and attending an interview. Surely that horse has already bolted

They tried that approach with us.

Saying you applied therefore you accepted.

Ultimately you don’t know the terms of the new job till contracts issued.

Hr and acas agree that we get paid if we don’t accept at this point. Management trying to dispute that.

Management not from the UK and has only just arrived in the uk so may be basing his knowledge on another countries process.

In our case they are forcing us off UK contracts into international ones. – it’s not happening.

Can anyone recommend an employment solicitor in the south east who will do telephone consultations? (PM me if you can and I will pass on)

If it’s a big enough company (or there are enough redundancies happening) he should be offered free legal advice as part of the available services.

You might consider free legal advice to be worth what you pay for it, YMMV.

Is this not trying to have your cake and eat it?

He’s got a job to go to which is attractive and comparable – why isn’t that sufficient?

Trailrat -thats quite common especially with an american based company.

So he has the choice of a better job elsewhere or stay with the same terms and conditions but less responsibility for the same money. I can see his point, he really should be demanding a guaranteed winning ticket for tonight’s euromillions draw.

I don’t think there is any question, that ideally he’d like his cake and eat it! Nothing wrong with that in my view – the company haven’t treated him in a great manner, he wants to be paid as much as possible – it’s a large multinational, so don’t shed too many tears!

I will ask him about being provided legal advice by the company.

Is there any downside to asking his company if they will still pay him redundancy if he rejects the job?

When I got made redundant we had to formally apply for the ‘new’ roles being offered or risk getting no redundancy anyway, as it would have been seen to be rejecting alternative employment.
I made my feelings known about the new job in that I didn’t want it.
I did the interview for the new job, gave professional but short answers to the questions and ultimately didn’t get the new position.
Whether that was down to me expressing not wanting the new position or just not being suitable or being less bothered than others who actually wanted to keep the job.
I think the OPs mate probably didn’t have a choice in being interviewed if he wanted to retain the option of redundancy although it seems he’s now stuck.
I’d take the new job anyway as it sounds like it’s a better option than the ‘new’ role.
I hope he does get some redundancy, although it sounds unlikely from what the OPs said.

Hypothetically, if his old role was still his. And the new role (that he’s been offered) was created and a new person filled the role. Would he be the new persons boss ?

If that’s the case, then I would say he has reasonable grounds to reject it.

Depends on the redundancy amount we are talking really

I have experienced the same – alternative employment, with less status, but same pay and conditions – however mine wasn’t with any offer of redundancy. Just told area was restructured, and this is your new role. I did talk to ACAS and a solicitor and probably had a case, but felt it was going to cause a huge amount of pain and stress for not much gain.

If its not mentioned above, check your home insurance, you may have access to a soliticor as part of the policy who can provide some free advice.

Turns out he has got a union after all, he’s now in contact with them.

Also he just mentioned that when he got his letter, it said no suitable alternative had been identified, which presumably puts him in a stronger position.

No idea on the legalities and I can understand why he’d want a new job + redundancy but personally I’d be tempted to stay if the new role was 50% of my old one for the same pay :p

Maybe, just maybe, oh judgmental ones, this friend of Ewans got the threat of being out of work over his head “or you can apply for this lower role”… so he did, to like, you know, stay in work.
But in the meantime another, external job came up and he thought, that looks good I’ll apply.
Now, he has the opportunity to take the redundancy cash and move straight into another role, sticking the cash into his bank account.
To me, that sounds like a perfectly normal series of events. Not sure why anyone would think he should doff his cap, accept as little as he can and be thankful. Maybe some of you have so much money that a few extra grand in the bank means little, but we’re not all that well off I can tell you.

Summed up nicely by DezB. We all want the best lives we can have, its a game that the employer started, why not play along!

I suspect the new job will actually be at least as much workload, just with a lower title! That’s the way these things happen.

As DezB says – he was told he was being made redundant, so was proactive, his company have shot themselves in the foot really. Serves them right really…

Also he just mentioned that when he got his letter, it said no suitable alternative had been identified, which presumably puts him in a stronger position.

It certainly does as that shows the company accept this is not suitable alternative employment. My guess is thats just an error in a cut and paste letter and is exactly the reason why many folk end up with a sum of money to shut up and go away

I’d certainly be pushing for the same thing as your friend. And I would certainly ask the question in a way where I would get a written reply.
If it turns out he isn’t entitled to any redundancy, then he has a choice to make.
If he was to be made redundant again in the near future, then the original company would obviously be the best bet. There’s always that possibility that the new company could struggle and he may end up with no job and no redundancy at all…

When I was made redundant a few years ago there was a clause on my contract to say that my employer would cover my legal fees up to £500 for handling the paperwork and netogtiations. I was re-interviewed for the same job (reducing team numbers) but never offered a new position. The employer made an ex-gratia payment and pay in lieu of notice to settle and see me and several other people leave quickly and quietly.

My solicitor claimed his costs back directly, pretty sure it happened to be the maximum he could get away with…. funny that.

Hope your friend gets sorted and is happy with whatever the outcome

…employer would cover my legal fees up to £500

Now you mention it, there was in mine too. Maybe it’s pretty standard practice.