owning a woodland

there’s some woods for sale a mile or so from me, and we’re half-seriously thinking about buying it – it’d be a great place for our boys to go play with their mates, and most of its on a pretty steep hill so I could cut some decent DH trails into it.

The problem is, its pretty big (20 acres), and I’ve no idea what I’m doing :) We had a wander round today and it seems like its pretty natural, there’s a couple of scabby buildings and a few trees have been chopped up with a chainsaw, but mostly it looks like its just left to grow as-is.

I guess what I’m looking for is an idea of how much time/money it takes to keep on top of something like that, to figure out how much of a silly idea it is. Its in a national park, and at least 150 years old (thats the oldest map I can find), so I’d be surprised if (even if I wanted to) I could do much more than the occasional thinning of trees..

edit : just checked and its on the list of ancient woodlands

Managing woodland isn’t as easy as most people think.

20 acres is a lot if it’s just you and you only have weekends. We’ve had 3 acres for the last 12 years and I still haven’t got on top of it, but it was left unmanaged for about 50 years.

Ancient woodlands still need managing. I actually prefer the older hardwoods to softwood plantations. The upside for you is it’s not likely to be commercially valuable (hard to harvest). Digging an MTB track can be done sympathetically e.g. by using natural materials, making sure you minimise erosion etc.

As a rough example, felling an 80yr old dead oak and removing it would take a few people the best part of a day. Depending on access + ease of removal, a tree surgeon would charge £500+ I reckon.

Main considerations are what condition + age the trees are, any disease e.g. Ash Dieback and access. I would get it assessed by an ecology/arboriculture expert before buying.

it’d be a great place for our boys to go play with their mates

What’s to stop them playing there anyway?

There’s a smaller wood near me for sale. I was also tempted, especially as this one had a couple of fishing ponds within it so could see the opportunity for a bit of income, but in the end I decided that being a woods owner would probably become my only hobby because of the amount of time required to manage it, which I’d quickly resent.

Agree you should get an arboriculturalist to report on it so you understand the ‘state’ it’s in currently. The usual legal stuff applies, legal searches, access rights, restrictive covenants etc. Does it have public rights of way that need maintaining, does it have infrastructure running through it (pylons, cables, pipes). Is there a watercourse / drainage and what are your riparian responsibilities. Has it ever had a domestic dwelling, could it be registered for Council Tax etc? Depending where it is and public access you should buy public indemnity insurance. If it’s priced high enough there is also Stamp Duty Land Tax to pay. Lots of costs unfortunately. But it’s a nice idea.

20 acres sounds fine. I have 8 and although it needs alot of work thats because its relatively new and needs a load of thinning. If it was as old as yours (possibly) I would spend my woodland work-days building bike tracks and the chainsaw could have a rest.

You can apply for small amounts of funding for maintenance etc. Not masses but if you don’t waste it it would pay for chainsaw/quad/trailer over a few years which is pretty much all you need to maintain something like that.

What happened to ancient woodlands before people started managing them? Trees have been around a while.

thanks for all the tips so far

elling an 80yr old dead oak and removing it

any disease e.g. Ash Dieback

so there’s tonnes of ash dieback in the area, a bunch of local woods have been severely thinned, so I’d assume there’s also some in these woods.

With that and the oak tree, does anything *have* to be done, or can the trees just be left to die and fall over on their own, assuming they’re not in the corner where we have a little hut/clearing? I might be being naiive here :)

assuming it has knackered trees vs nice trees (which is what a tree expert can tell us I guess) – how does that impact things? My thinking is the value is down to the fact its an anchient woodland of x size, more than the fact its got 38 oak trees that have £20k in wood inside them – am I wrong?

We’ve had 3 acres for the last 12 years and I still haven’t got on top of it

so I can get an idea of whats needed, how are you not “on top of it”? it is that there are too many trees in places where you want fewer so you need to chop some down?

What’s to stop them playing there anyway?

its a fenced bit of land with a gate. I wouldn’t pop by kids into someone’s back garden without permission, I woudln’t do it here either

Does it have public rights of way that need maintaining, does it have infrastructure running through it (pylons, cables, pipes). Is there a watercourse / drainage and what are your riparian responsibilities. Has it ever had a domestic dwelling, could it be registered for Council Tax etc? Depending where it is and public access you should buy public indemnity insurance. If it’s priced high enough there is also Stamp Duty Land Tax to pay. Lots of costs unfortunately. But it’s a nice idea.

fortunately, its in a bit of an awkward spot eaching up to the top of the hill so almost none of those. No rights of way, no infra, no watercourse, no dwelling (it was once owned by one thats next door, I think, but separated since).

Most ancient woodlands were managed. I would not take managing a wood lightly as although people see them as playgrounds they are part of the ecosystem. The number of species of plants and critters is crashing due to climate change, farming, poor management and presure from access for leisure and housing.

The remaining oasis of trees need to be properly treated.

so there’s tonnes of ash dieback in the area

You have responsibility to sort if it’s on your land. There are/were grants to help with the cost. But you have to sort it. Seller should probably be sorting before selling… shouldn’t they? Or is there a don’t look don’t tell excuse for selling without first removing?

Again something I’d love.  But maybe not all the work 

I want to do this as well.

Neighbours up the road (farmers) bought a 15 acre wood and it’s used as a wedding venue and wild camping / team building activities. They also manufacture charcoal for barbecues which is a 48 hour non stop activity with about a burn a month on average.

It’s a big undertaking to manage any woodland if you don’t want it to get to be impenetrable. Need to fell old and diseased trees, clear areas of undergrowth and replant trees. 20 acres is a large area and if steep it will seem even bigger. Anyone thinking it’s a hour here or there is in for a serious awakening. If you don’t have the kit and aren’t used to serious graft it’s probably not for you.

Isn’t it stuff like liability insurance, that puts a stopper on most of this stuff. It might be ok for your friends & family, but when the locals find out about your trails and start trespassing, & or damaging themselves, you may run into problem. Hopefully some-one with knowledge on this will comment.

PS: Sounds like a great idea.

You have responsibility to sort if it’s on your land. There are/were grants to help with the cost. But you have to sort it. Seller should probably be sorting before selling… shouldn’t they? Or is there a don’t look don’t tell excuse for selling without first removing?

You would have a responsibility if there is a danger to the public – rights of way, boundaries, adjoining roads etc, but otherwise it does not require any ‘sorting’.Woodland does not need any management at all. Of course, you may want to put some management in place depending on what your own objectives are. If you’re not wanting to profit from the timber then it requires nothing. If you’re managing it for wildlife then there’s a whole host of different things you could do depending on the particular site and the particular wildlife that you wanted to manage for, but that would be up to you. You certainly don’t need to be clearing out trees just because they are dead (ridiculous) or removing brambles and scrub for fun.

ok this might be the killer – but it turns out the land is also an SSSI – which seems to further limit what can be done with it.

Don’t suppose anyone on here owns ancient woodland in a national park that’s also in an SSSI? :D

Our little plot is just on the edge of a SSSI. They do seem to do quite a lot of tree work there. Mostly removing the out of place pine trees. Probably depends why it’s a SSSI as to what you can do.

SSSI and national park?
That’s a whole barrel of fun there with limitations on operations due to the SSSI (depends why it is one) and maybe some management prescriptions too to maintain the particular interest. That before any planning issues with your hoped for use of it.

Not necessarily a game stopper but certainly something you need to do due diligence on and it will limit your plans for ‘fun’.

Don’t know about SSSI’s, but when we got ours it was very overgrown with hawthorn and brambles, plus loads of fallen trees. It was impossible to walk a lot of it until it was cleared, and there are some sections that need work, plus brambles keep coming back.

Ours is part ancient woodland part commercial, planted in the early 1950’s (we think), then left. So all the conifers weren’t thinned out and many are starting to die out, but this is good for the log burner!

‘Management’ now consists of cutting up fallen trees, clearing brambles and trying to plant new, native trees.

Don’t forget the cost, apart from the actual land. What’s access like, will you need a 4 wheel drive vehicle? Do you have a chainsaw and PPE? Add training as well.

Still love ours, but just need more time to spend there.

Don’t suppose anyone on here owns ancient woodland in a national park that’s also in an SSSI? 😀

a local community initiative near me  bought 20 or 30 odd acres woodland that is also an sssi (not in a national park)

for £1

who is selling it and why? Often when landowners are faced with inheritance tax bills their first thought is to try and sell their liabilities- land that comes with burdens of ownership rather – rather than  any of their assets that yeild  income.

think about whether anyone would buy it off you if you (or your kids) had to sell it.

the community imitative went bust

its a fenced bit of land with a gate. I wouldn’t pop by kids into someone’s back garden without permission, I woudln’t do it here either

Very wise. I would suggest looking into electric fencing and private security to keep your little ones safe in their ancient woodland.

There isn’t a blade of grass in this country that someone doesn’t own – why can’t woodlands be owned by the council/state and be managed for everyone?  ‘Owning a woodland’ harks back to the Normans, IMHO.

Just went on some buy a woodland website and they seem to start at £50,000 for little ones and rise quickly.

This is a direct cut and paste from a .gov.uk site:

===

Minimum intervention areas

Whilst wildlife generally benefits from management in accordance with this guide, it is not necessary for environmental gains for every part of all woodlands to be actively managed. Awkward or remote corners, steep-sided streamsides, very wet areas and sites with very shallow and drought-prone soils can be left completely unmanaged to grow large trees and build up accumulations of dead wood, which would provide habitats for specialised and often rare species.

===

There is a theoretical possibility of someone imposing an order on you if you have excessive disease and pests present. But in general, you don’t have to do anything, and this form of (no) management is explicitly supported.

(RoW could be another issue, but the OP says not in the area he’s considering.)

Very wise. I would suggest looking into electric fencing and private security to keep your little ones safe in their ancient woodland.

not sure of your point? the woodland already has these things, with only one entrance, and bordered by fields with grazing animals, I’d assume its in the farmer’s interests to keep the fences in good condition.

I found the list of “operations likely to damage the area” – these apply to the whole area, of which the woods are a fairly unusual part (the majority of the landscape is grassland), but include

1 Cultivation, including ploughing, rotovating, harrowing, and re-seeding.
2 Grazing.
3 Stock feeding.
4 Mowing or other methods of cutting vegetation.
5 Application of manure, fertilisers and lime.
6 Application of pesticides, including herbicides (weedkillers).
7 Dumping, spreading or discharge of any materials.
8 Burning.
9 The release into the site of any wild, feral or domestic animal*, plant or seed.
10 The killing or removal of any wild animal*, including pest control.
11 The destruction, displacement, removal or cutting of any plant or plant remains,
including tree, shrub, herb, hedge, dead or decaying wood, moss, lichen, fungus,
leaf-mould and turf.
12 Tree and/or woodland management+.
14 The changing of water levels and tables and water utilisation (including irrigation,
storage and abstraction from existing water bodies and through boreholes).
20 Extraction of minerals, including topsoil, subsoil, chalk and lime.
21 Construction, removal or destruction of roads, tracks, walls, fences, hardstands,
banks, ditches or other earthworks, or the laying, maintenance or removal of
pipelines and cables, above or below ground.
22 Storage of materials.
23 Erection of permanent or temporary structures, or the undertaking of engineering
works, including drilling.
24 Modification of natural or man-made features, clearance of boulders, large stones,
loose rock or scree infilling of quarries.
25 Removal of geological specimens, including rock samples, minerals and fossils.
26 Use of vehicles or craft likely to damage or disturb features of interest.
27 Recreational or other activities likely to damage or disturb features of interest.
28 Game and waterfowl management and hunting practices.

its not looking good :(

Broadly speaking, trees (esp deciduous) can be left alone for decades and if they fall over, so what. If you get a space cleared in the canopy from a fallen tree, new growth should sprout up in a few years. You can help it along by planting a sapling or keeping the brush low (when there is more light, brambles grow too).

As you say, the amenity value will be higher if extraction costs are high and there isn’t much tall, straight 80 year old oak without knots (which is the good value stuff as it can be turned into floorboards etc).

Charcoal burning is a really good option for a bit of fun and quick cash, if you can sell it locally. You need to get a big steel burner and camp out/keep watch for a day or so.

Chances are the Ash dieback will spread within the next 10 years but you can deal with that tree-by-tree and replant with resistant species.

‘Management’ now consists of cutting up fallen trees, clearing brambles and trying to plant new, native trees.

Don’t forget the cost, apart from the actual land. What’s access like, will you need a 4 wheel drive vehicle? Do you have a chainsaw and PPE? Add training as well.

it seems relatively thin under-cover at the moment, but tbh we only wondered up the path in there, didn’s spend a lot of time exploring the whole site. Its on a steep, north-facing slope, so I wonder if that naturally restricts light and stops brambles etc taking over?

Access is good, there’s a road up to the fence, and inside the site there’s a track along one edge I think you could take a Jimny or similar down, that looks in fairly good nick, but (if you’re not trying to get large amounts of wood off-site) it might be fine just on foot within the site. Buying a chainsaw is a benefit, not a cost :) on the training side, the woods is handily about 3 miles from the one agricultural collage in the area, which runs wooland management courses, so I can probably stick myself on a few of those if it pans out

You could also offer the wood as a training area for the college and get some work done by students for free*

*possibly, just guessing really

why can’t woodlands be owned by the council/state and be managed for everyone?

Eh? Loads of them are. Forests all over the place.

Woodland doesn’t need to be managed. There was nature before we came along and it will thrive once we bugger off. Most of this country was forest and woodland before we came along. Who the hell managed it then, badgers?

stops brambles etc taking over?

Brambles are an early coloniser and will normally be shaded out by mature trees regardless of aspect. You may get some of course but they won’t take over a woodland unless you clear felled it.

Any sporting rights to be considered? If not you could make a few bob by renting them out. You may even be able to tie up land management in the deal. I know a few people who shoot in exchange for fencing, access management etc and this will deter unwanted visitors as well. 

You’ll have to decide on an approach to management. Is it just let it go or do you follow a plan which can, of course, have a variety of approaches? I would be removing, gradually any non native softwood and probably hardwood, culling pests such as squirrels and Muntjac and looking at old parkland as a good model. You may differ. 

not sure of your point? the woodland already has these things, with only one entrance, and bordered by fields with grazing animals, I’d assume its in the farmer’s interests to keep the fences in good condition.

This is reassuring but my fear is that it will prove wholly inadequate when it comes to keeping poor people out.

I work on an estate with a SSSI woodland inside a National park… Looking at the restrictions listed above you won’t be able to do much with it. If you do and someone finds out the fines are substantial. Think of it more as being a ‘land steward’ then owning it. 

If it’s not too cheeky, how much are they wanting for it?

I’d love to own a bit of the land near me – mostly ancient birch woods. Romantically the idea of being the ‘land steward’ for it, preserving it for the next generation and providing my stove with an endless supply with the thinnings and windfall really appeals.

If it’s not too cheeky, how much are they wanting for it?

A lot. £200k – we live in the south east in an area full of London commuters. I don’t think they’ll get that, but at £10k/acre, compared to some grassland on the same escarpment that sold for £25k/acre it’s pretty cheap.

Our thinking is more opportunity lost than anything else, our boys are the perfect age to make great use of it for 15 years, and another site is unlikely to come up. The vague idea was to use it then move it on with relatively little loss.

I’m lucky enough to live in a woodland, albeit in Oz.

It was logged about 100 years ago, and there’s still evidence from old stumps, etc.

Our place is 6 acres, but we’re surrounded by 100s of acres of it. The previous owners did a great job of clearing the weeds so it’s relatively straightforward to maintain now. In fact it’s far easier than if we had lawn, etc.

By being registered as a voluntary conservation reserve (about half the land) everything stays on the land. Trees that fall stay put. The council gives us a choice between rate relief or payment for conservation work. This effectively means we don’t **** around with it – aside from having a walking trail through it.

Council has also bought up some large blocks adjacent as conservation reserves.

We also have a wet weather creek that runs through, which is a drainage easement so has to be kept clear. There’s rock marking from Indigenous food preparation which is pretty cool.

On the image the yellow line is our approximate boundary. One of the adjoining properties (~30acres) has been empty for +20 years. The red line shows (very roughly) the secret DH track i’ve considered building – it’s very steep.

Our thinking is more opportunity lost than anything else, our boys are the perfect age to make great use of it for 15 years, and another site is unlikely to come up.

I always think this but I think they take it for granted. It’s the main reason I’d like to build a mtb trail – we have to drive to get to anything and a lot of there mates can ride to trails.

I always think this but I think they take it for granted. It’s the main reason I’d like to build a mtb trail – we have to drive to get to anything and a lot of there mates can ride to trails.

For sure they’d take it for granted, I just think an upbringing with a sense of adventure/freedom/roaming around doing what you like would be pretty sweet. My wife’s worried they wouldn’t get into it and we’d just end up with an expensive asset that’s difficult to sell, which is fair.