Learn to Manual

Hi Guys,

My first time at this forum and am seeking some advice or tips for learning to manual mtb. Reason being I ambreally finding it hard and seems like am not going anywhere.

I am using FS trail bike, small size. I am small built standing 5’ 3” and weighs 64kg.

I am trying everything, watching videos and with some mates but I think I need some expert advice.

First question is, do I have the right bike size for me or does that really matter a lot? Some said I need a bike with shorter chainstay- mine is 439.5

Second is my bike weighs 14.5kg, not sure if this is a factor as I have seen some much lighter bikes.

Would appreciate any comments or suggestions.

Thanks

Just practice more. There is no easy answer.

Some bikes may manual easier than others but it’s just an excuse really.

Im equally crap manualling on all types of bike despite being a middling ability rider. I’m scared of flipping out which hinders the rear weight shift. I’m getting better having spent quite a bit of time purposely falling off the back.

Long chainstays won’t help, but it’s still possible. Flat pedals, a nice very slightly downhill grassy area, and practice. Film yourself too, the technique isn’t that hard but when you think you’re going a low way down and back you probably aren’t…

If you can get the front wheel up a foot for half a second or so then that’s a start (and is probably enough for most trail situations). Just practice from there.

Normally it’s not the bike…

Yes – like Van Halen bloke stated: …practise …

Best: if you have a biking pal filming you. When watching the video things might get clear and you can try to improve.

Start to train on an uphill slope. Many good videos on youtube.

Thanks guys, I think the bottom line is to keep practicing. Just thought that it might be my bike geometry and weight that is making it difficult.

I will try to film my self and see if doing basics correctly.

Thanks for all the comments.

Have a look on google for the manual machine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZ873rA831o

Was actually thinking of building manual machine. Have you tried one yourself and did it help?

The geo, suspension and weight won’t be helping. Far easier to learn on a lighter hardtail or even a bmx if you can get hold of one.

I built a manual machine it didn’t help but it does make a handy stand for the wifes bike

Do not bother with a manual machine.

Find the “manual madness”thread from a few months back where I explained  how to manual and why a manual machine is pointless

Just thought that it might be my bike geometry and weight that is making it difficult.

It’ll be a factor but if you only ride your bike at the weekend* that won’t help either ;)

* I have no idea how often you ride your bike.

and this-

Do not bother with a manual machine.

Find the “manual madness”thread from a few months back where I explained how to manual and why a manual machine is pointless.

:D

In terms of geometry; it’s a bit easier to lift the front wheel on some bikes than others, but often it’s actually harder to hold it there on those (less stable) bikes. It’s also not as simple as longer chainstays being harder as BB drop is just as important for that first lift i.e. a bike with longer stays but a higher BB may be no harder to pop the front end up than one with shorter chainstays buut a bigger BB drop.

It’s also worth being clear on what you are trying to do and why. Are you looking to pull long manuals to impress your mates in the car park or just get over trail obstacles?

TBH fail, fail and fail again …. then all at once you don’t fail.

It’s really one of those things that most of us just need to set aside time and keep practicing.  For most of us that means we would rather give up trying something we aren’t doing  and ride….

Obviously there are people who love doing and mastering new tricks…  but IMHO they love it just for the love of new stuff… but I think most of us want to manual like a pro etc. but given the choice riding comes first.  In other words it’s easy to try for 10 mins… then just say bugger it… and go riding.. whereas nearly everyone can do it if they are willing to spend the time and practice.

Filming yourself is a great tip…. actually getting a mate to film you possibly better if you both decide, lets just crack this…..

I’m on of those would rather be riding…. right until I think “Oh if only I’d spent a few hours instead of giving up after 10 mins” …. and actually having a kid learning to ride forced me to go back and actually practice stuff I’d never really tried…

Manuals aren’t for impressing your mates. They’re just a lot of fun.

And manualling IS riding. FFS

Surely having fun is the whole point of riding a mountain bike?

To echoe the thoughts of some above.If at 5’3 you haven’t got the bodily reach to get enough of your weight back towards and over your rear axle then your onto a looser. That chainstay for a wee person  is proportionately mahoosive putting the rear axle in another postcode.

Get someone to take a video/picture of you trying and compare it to the many natural manuallers/coaches on the net that make it look effortless. Then get a get a bike to allow you to get into the same position as them-and then you’ve got half a chance.

Short chainstay,short reach,high stack,low bb drop will help you. Borrow a small Stanton Switchback or similar.

Good luck.

Manual machine – ones I have seen concentrate on the fore-aft bit, whereas the difficult bit, for me anyhow, is the need to get both the front-back and the sideways balance right.  If either of them goes wrong too soon, you haven’t had much time with the front wheel in the air to practice.

Anyone tried manualling a trike?  Is it easier?

Wow. now I’ve actually read the thread there’s so much poor advice here it’s fascinating to read.
There’s absolutely no need to video yourself. Many folk on this forum will suggest anything other than actually practicing. When practicing is ALL you need to do.
Also don’t listen to any of the people who are saying you can’t manual your bike because of it’s geometry. it’s total nonsense. I suspect none of them can actually manual a bike any distance. God knows why they’re even offering you advice.
A longer/heavier bike just takes a harder pre-load and harder kick to raise the front wheel to balance point.
Short bikes like a BMX or DJ bike are actually slightly harder to hold a manual on than longer/heavier bikes. (They’re twitchier). People confuse short bikes and short stays with being easier because they are far easier to raise the front on. But they’re not easier to hold that balance point.
Most BMXers can manual well because they’ve put the hours in. Not because their bikes have shorter chainstays.

Hmm, a trike with wheelie bars on the back to stop over-rotation… There’s an idea!

You’re gonna need a toddler.  First things first make sure they can pootle along by themselves.  Then you’re going to think, “Right, now that junior can ride I can go out with them!”, which will immediately turn out to be stupid as junior only pootles as about 4mph.  It’s here that you’re just going to have to say, “F*** it, maybe I’ll try to manual along behind them.”  Give it a week or so and you’ll have it down.  The actual technique is pretty much like what geex said, if you can’t be bothered getting the toddler.

Just out of interest Vilfran and to exasperate GEEX even more-what bike are you riding?Is  it a 29er with that long chainstay?

Exasperated? No. Bewildered. Yes

439mm isn’t massively long for a 27.5 wheel.
One of my 26″ and one of my 27.5 bikes have 444mm stays
Both of those are over 16kg (the 27.5 one is 21kg)
Both Manual fine.

But your not 5’3 GEEX? The best coaches in the world don’t just tell people to do exactly what they do because it works for them,they observe ,analyse, and even  empathise with the people they are trying to help.The worlds not black and white.Whats not an obvious physical limitation for you doesn’t mean it isn’t for others.

I already explained how to raise the front on a larger/heavier bike.
You were probably too busy reading it in a made up exasperated manner to actually comprehend the technique is the same for a smaller/lighter rider.

Comparing yourself to a world class coach when all you’re doing is looking for excuses to hold back the rider is laughable. Nothing you have said here so far even makes me think you can manual a bike.

“Just out of interest Vilfran and to exasperate GEEX even more-what bike are you riding?Is  it a 29er with that long chainstay?”

My bike is 2012 nukeproof FS small. It is 26″ with 140mm front suspension.

I offered no advice,beyond maybe sensing a physical limitation if it is indeed one.Why because it’s something I’ve found to  be problem for me being short and your correct I’m not a good or natural born manualler by any means but having recently sorted a  part of the problem for me – which was bike fit…..  I’m certainly getting better .

So one of the shortest enduro bikes out there vilfran. I’d ignore everything Gravesendgrunt is saying about bike sizing. There is no real physical limitation for you on your bike. I’ve taught kids your height to manual bigger bikes their parents bought them to “grow into”. Lower your saddle as low as it’ll go in the seat tube and practice everything I said on the other thread. and keep practicing. every day if you can.
one tiny bit of advice about your bike. if the shock has a pedal mode you could switch it to pedal while learning, if you’re running the shock soft switching it to pedal mode the suspension will absorb less of your kick forwards and compress less as you hang back off the bars. there’s no need to lock it out. and once you have the timing etc. you’ll be able to get it up to balance point just as easily full open.

Same advice about reading the other thread for you Gravesendgrunt. I bumped it on to the main forum earlier for vilfran to read. I think you might have been absent the first lesson.

it’s cool. Take a seat.

Skills advice from folk who can’t perform the skill being discussed really is bewildering.
Not exasperating though.

Thanks Geex for great advice and for the others as well who shared their thoughts.

I would give a good weeks or months working my manual on my bike and hopefully i can make progress. Will post an update if I made any step forward.

Have read the other thread “manual madness” and my hopes come back alive that I would still be able to learn to manual. I need to persevere and practice more.

My tip would be learn to wheelie first – you’ll get to know your bikes balance point and how to feather the back brake properly.

My other interjection would be you don’t need to be able to manual for miles to get the most out of it riding trails. My wheelie, manual and bunny hops all need work, but I can do them all well enough to get some air off jumps and negotiate drops.

Most decent coaches will teach people wheelies then manuals, then rear wheel lifts and then bunny hops. IMO the better you are at wheelies the better your manuals are and the higher you can bunny hop.

Everyone is different, but one thing which really helped me is some decent 1-1 coaching. It’s worth spending money on that rather than a new fancy bit of carbon for your bike.

If you’re in the North West try these guys out: https://ridemtbcoaching.co.uk

Elliot is currently leading the EWS for his age group and has beaten Sam Hill in some stages this year, most importantly he’s a bloody good coach.

I’ve been on MTB courses with my dad with other coaches recommended on this forum and not got a great deal out it at all – you definitely want someone with decent experience/pedigree not some bearded hipster who can barely ride better than you can…..

Thanks snapperdan.

I am not aiming to manual for miles but just get comfortable lifting the front wheel up whenever needed to negotiate average obstacle and drops at the trail. But one thing I am really wanting to learn as well is to bunny hop, at least be able to hop a bit and maybe progressively improve. And after reading and watching videos, manual skill is sort of the pre-requisite.

I live in the south east but I have also searched for some coaching and there are some available. Maybe if I did not get anywhere with my own learning I would consider one.

My advice would be to listen to Geex then practice, practice, practice.

Don’t be fretting over your bike choice/size, or building weird contraptions, or worrying about flipping off the back (i’ve never fell off the back while doing/practicing – just keep your rear brake covered and it’s all gravy).

One tip i will offer, since no one else has, is to practice at or near the start of a ride rather than at the end when your limbs are potentially shot.

And don’t be put off if it takes ages to get the hang of it – with practice it will come. And when it does it’ll seem effortless :D

FFS Don’t mention bunny hopping on a manual thread ;-)

Thanks Euro, that is very encouraging and Im feeling very positive.

Hoping to spend more time practicing even with the winter coming😊

sirromj, first time in the forum and did not see it violate anything, maybe on occasions you will have to mention something related. But thanks for the reminder😊

My advice is enjoy the process. I go out for rides all the time where all I do is mess around and get better at silly tricks, its fun! But honestly those sessions are actually super valuable because they teach you a lot about bike control. It takes aaaaaages to get good at things like manuals so persevere and just practice as much as you can, and as long as your enjoying the process it will come with time.

Break it down into stages, and just mess around with the floating/loop out point. Don’t be afraid to come off the back, I found it useful (especially when learning wheelies) to deliberately loop out for the first few attempts and realise you can just land on your feet. Takes away that natural fear and allows you to get into that float zone which is actually a lot further back than it first feels.

Also once your getting short ones down, make sure you look far ahead, really helps to hold them for longer.

I learned to manual when I was about 8, if I remember the process went 1. Pull up with your arms, do this for about 10 days straight from out of school until sunset until you can’t lift you arms above your head. At some point you’ll lean back at the same time (to take the strain off your sore arms) and whoahhhh the front just came up….try to repeat, which then moves onto lesson 2, falling off the back of the bike. as you learn technique 1, try not to break your back as you get ejected off the back, at some point, grabbing the brake as you do this brings the front back down again, do this for 10 more days from school’s out to Sundown, until on one day you can roll across the road and smack into the kerb on the other side. Congratulations, you’ve just learned how to manual. BTW I learned on my mums 70’s German shopper, that had a roller back brake and was step through and 20″ wheels, so forget the geometry thing…

I don’t agree that manual machines can’t help, they show very quickly how far back off the bike you need to be, but it’s just one element of the whole and it’s a lot of effort for half and hour’s messing about before you’d probs get a bit bored. If you want to make one,why not?

and the moral of the above cool story is…

Don’t pull up with your arms.

Hang back off the bars. while pushing the rear wheel forwards through the pedals with your legs/hips

10 wasted days saved ;)

Coming down the hill last night after a ride, I had a little go.  Pull up a bit and lean back.. pull up a bit more and lean back, pull up a bit moreeaaargh! Managed to grab a handful of back brake before I looped out.

It’s a silly idea.  But I’m still thinking about it.

10 wasted days saved…

I was 8!

try to a bit more patronising, I’m just not feeling it quite enough yet.

ha ha.. .Sorry. No I didn’t mean you’d wasted 10 days as a kid. I meant following your advice as an adult trying to learn manuals would waste 10 days.

Being 8 was awesome. none of the dumb shit I did back then was a waste. Even the stuff I was lucky to walk away alive from.