Lakes Passes Graded List

funnily enough, that route you describe (Langstrath, Stake, Rossett, Styhead etc) features in the next edition of the mag. It’s a brilliant loop, one of my favourites

Can’t wait.

Can I ask a question?
Is the list position based on difficulty of riding every single bit of the descent, or riding the vast majority of it?

I’m hoping it’s the latter. Ie, which descent should I plan on tackling next and hopefully have a generally awesome but stretched time.

I think it should be a done on what most people will ride when they do a descent. Be worth a note if its a bit that comes up fast or is particularly dodgy. Think that’s what Neilc has done anyhow.

Is the list position based on difficulty of riding every single bit of the descent, or riding the vast majority of it?

I guess a bit of both – i’ve tried to encompass that in the notes. For example if it’s a relatively easy descent with very short hard bits that some people may walk then I’d call that a 2 (e.g. Walna Scar to Coniston), compared to something that’s fairly tech throughout but never super hard I’d call a 3 (e.g. Nan Bield to Kentmere).

Hopefully that’s a logical approach?

Seems logical to me, if a couple of sections are a bit hard it doesn’t ruin the overall experience if you find the whole thing a bit hard it will.

I’d focus more or the order than the number mind it allows people to work their way up the list where as a number becomes arbitrary and you get yourself in the position where the difference between two 3s can be greater than between some 2s and some 3s.

I’ve scored and added notes for the ones I know. If others can do the same then we’ve got a good starting point to order them.

Be interesting to see if there’s differences in opinion of gradings too, maybe discuss on here before changing any on the sheet?

Just to throw an opinion out there, I’d have thought that Styhead to Stonethwaite would come in harder than Nan Bield to Kentmere, I’ve only Ridden Nan Bield out of the two though I have walked Styhead.

I think Neil’s initial list had them the way you listed them but I re-ordered. I don’t recall anything difficult from Styhead though it was a long old day so maybe I just haven’t remembered it well.

I remember a few sections near the top and near the bottom that looked fairly spicy, I was mainly thinking of the rock slabs at the bottom though.

I don’t recall anything difficult from Styhead

Well that comes as zero surprise 🙂

Seems like there’s some great knowledge in here so I’ve also added a tab for people to add their favourite descents that we’re not classing as passes.

I’ve started with Harter Fell as shown to me by @thegeneralist

Is that the Harter fell in Duddon? You could argue that is a pass, goes from Duddon to Eskdale.
Some mentioned Birk side as well, which I’d rate as one of the best descents in the lakes… Maybe open this up to all significant descents?

Thanks to those that have added notes and grades, looking much more complete now.

Is that the Harter fell in Duddon?

Above Haweswater, between Nan Bield and Gatesgarth passes.

Maybe open this up to all significant descents?

I think that would be the best way to do it. I’ve added a second tab to avoid the initial request of graded passes being lost

seems sensible so long as we don’t end up listing every bit of cheeky woods action in the area hahaha

Harter Fell above Haweswater is definitely not a pass, or a Bridleway. Adding that to the list would be the thin end of a very long wedge, involving every cheeky ridge and summit descent in the Lakes, of which there are hundreds.

Harter Fell above Haweswater is definitely not a pass, or a Bridleway. Adding that to the list would be the thin end of a very long wedge, involving every cheeky ridge and summit descent in the Lakes, of which there are hundreds.

I have to reluctantly agree with this PoV. I always feel a little dirty asking on forums about FBWs and then even more dirty posting about then afterwards ( yes I realise how hypocritical I am being). But I can just about justify it to myself.

Given that this list is going to end up being a hit list for many people, well me at least, I think we maybe ought to leave FBWs off it…

Just my opinion though.

Apologies – I thought that was a bridleway, though didn’t actually check.

Agree with not including footpaths and cheeky for the sake of this. Let’s keep it to best of the legal stuff, there’s plenty of it

Agree lets keep it too significant BW descents, if they’re ridges etc that’s fine, if we want to have a best cheeky descent thread as well that’s fine by me but might upset some of the locals.

Edit: when I say BW I don’t mean to exculde BOATs and restricted byways either obvs.

Apologies – I thought that was a bridleway, though didn’t actually check.

That’s what I say when I get called out for riding on a footpath by an Irate rambler 😉

Warnscale’s got to be at, or near, the top of the list for technicality, iirc correctly I’m sure I read somewhere it was supposed to be the hardest descent in the UK?
(it’s got to be one of the toughest to get up to?)

Depends how you define the most difficult…
It’s certainly one of the harder ones, and one of the hardest that mere mortals have a chance in hell of riding cleanly. But even by that definition I’m not sure whether it takes top spot or not

Apologies – I thought that was a bridleway, though didn’t actually check.

Oops. How embarrassing. I knew there was something I forgot to mention on Saturday Mark
🥵😫🥵

Soz.

There’s an out and back be on harter isn’t there?

There’s one on the duddon harter too although I think that comes under the “suicide mission” category

Warnscale’s definitely tricky, but I’d say Nan Bield north to Haweswater, Rossett Gill or High Crag down to Scarth Gap are all harder. It’s splitting hairs though, as they’ve all got their moments

I’ve added a few descents I’m curious about to the bottom of the provisional list in the hope that someone who knows what they’re taking about.
If we’re adding to the main list can we stick them where we think they fit on the list otherwise its gonna get confusing fast.

I also added some to the bottom that appear in guide books but I’ve not yet done. Hopefully someone can fill some blanks and slot them into order.

Can we add numbers? Might make it a bit easier to talk about.

Looking at the list, I’d say Wharnscales could potentially go above scarth gap – the hardest bits of scarth gap are (debatably) harder than the hardest bits or Wharnscales. On the other hard, Wharnscales is on average harder – there’s more nails sections and the whole thing is pretty relentless, whereas with scarth gap the hard bits are very hard but short lived and interspersed with easy single-track.

I’d also say birk side is too far up the list. Personally I’d put it between sticks and scarth gap.

I suspect were likely to find a lot of differences of opinion due to riding style etc. Also for the harder stuff on the list, if you’ve only tried once or twice it may seem harder than if you’ve had a few goes and worked out the best line

New stuff:
Watendlath – between Scarth gap and blacksail pass? The steep rocky bit is fairly hard (though short)
Allerdale ramble – not sure what you’re referring to. Looked this up but wasn’t obvious which descent is on it
Dollywaggon – maybe just above Greenup edge to grasmere. The fix the fells section is steep with some wheel swallowing water bars
Iron keld – there’s like 4 descents here. The bridleway north is maybe between walna scar and gatesgarth
Skiddaw – maybe after Garburn pass to troutbeck?
Skiddaw house to Bassenthwaite – never done it in descent but somewhere round the top of the list
High street to hartsop – never done it in descent. The grassy section from the knott is crazy steep but there’s nothing that technically challenging iirc
Materdale common – not done it
Blacksail to ennerdale – never ridden and unlikely to do so – its a waste of your altitude

Is it worth having a star system like with rock climbing? Zero to three stars depending on the quality of the route.

Maybe have some indication of sections that are normally unrideable? So e.g. styhead pass to wasdale could be graded like 2(U) – its 2 overall but there’s a bit you can’t really ride.

Also some climbing grading systems use multiple grades to give the overall difficulty and the difficulty of individual bits. This is useful as it lets you know if it’s hard all the way, or easy with one hard bit. My suggestions is stick with the 1 to 5 we have, but maybe an overall grade, and a grade for bits that are significantly different from the rest? Or is this too complicated?

If by Skiddaw we mean Ullock Pike, then it needs to be removed as it’s a FP. Soz

Sounds like a great idea, but unfortunately I don’t know enough of the trails mentioned to truly contribute. Keen to tick off plenty more if there’s any rides I can tag along to!

There’ll never be 100% consensus, but I think we’ve all been pretty much in agreement on the 1-4 difficulty gradings so far.

Is it worth having a star system like with rock climbing? Zero to three stars depending on the quality of the route.

I did contemplate this, but thought it leaves it too open to personal taste so opted for the notes instead

If by Skiddaw we mean Ullock Pike, then it needs to be removed as it’s a FP. Soz

I took this to mean the bridleway to the summit (more often used as the climb to do Ullock pike…)

I took this to mean the bridleway to the summit (more often used as the climb to do Ullock pike…)

Correct – I’ve changed the name to clarify

I did contemplate this, but thought it leaves it too open to personal taste so opted for the notes instead

That’s a fair point. Just thinking if people want to use this as a ticklist, there’s stuff on there that would be must-do bucket list descents, and stuff that you should probably actively avoid (or at least things I’d only ride if there’s no other way to join up some better trails to make a loop)

Blacksail to ennerdale – never ridden and unlikely to do so – its a waste of your altitude

Is that because its boring or unrideable just wondering about it as a there and back appraicaite that the “correct” way to do it is as part of the 4 passes.

Is that because its boring or unrideable just wondering about it as a there and back appraicaite that the “correct” way to do it is as part of the 4 passes.

Some steep rock that wouldn’t be rideable, then mellow, marshy fields
Scarth or Sty Head would be better to do in the ‘wrong’ way if you wanted a there and back.

I think someone else summed it up earlier – there’s a couple of tricky rocks, but you’d lose most of your height on boggy grass

Just on a tangent, can anyone tell me if Parkamoor is currently worth the descent. I last did it possibly 10 years ago and had read on here it got sanitised, but that’s a few years ago. Has it gone back to anything like of old??

Some steep rock that wouldn’t be rideable, then mellow fields.
Scarth or Sty Head would be better to do in the ‘wrong’ way if you wanted a there and back.

Which way is the right way for scarth though? Probably gets ridden into ennerdale a lot to do the 4 passes, but I’d say into buttermere is the ‘right’ way, but I do have a mild obsession with borderline unrideable descents…

Easiest way to do scarth that way is start at bowness knot, head down the fireroad then over the pass. To get back go along the south side of buttermere. Then either carry on along crummock for a km or so and follow the boggy bridleway (mostly carrying/pushing up) to floutern tarn. The descent here is nice enough but nothing special. You can also get on the road at buttermere village and ride along the north side of crummock. Cut through langthwaite wood to loweswater, then head up mosedale. This is longer but more of it is rideable. Both ways involve bogs, long tussock grass and some pushing.
Actually maybe just going there and back is easier, plus if you walk up scarth you can weigh up line choice

All interesting what i had been considering was Scarth Gap to ennerdale, Blacksail > Wasdale, Blacksail > ennerdale, back by floutern tarn thus avoiding ending up on the wrong side of Honnister at the end of a long day.

Also some climbing grading systems use multiple grades to give the overall difficulty and the difficulty of individual bits. This is useful as it lets you know if it’s hard all the way, or easy with one hard bit. My suggestions is stick with the 1 to 5 we have, but maybe an overall grade, and a grade for bits that are significantly different from the rest? Or is this too complicated?

Climbing has a lot to teach us – what better way to have an argument then give every trail a (complicated) grade, followed by ethical argy-bargy on how / if one should ride said trail 🙂

Honestly though it sounds like useful stuff – taking an underwhelming route off a mountain really sucks when you’ve worked your balloches off getting up there, vice versa not everyone wants death on wheels in Lakes descents, so having an expectation of tech level is v helpful.

Just on a tangent, can anyone tell me if Parkamoor is currently worth the descent. I last did it possibly 10 years ago and had read on here it got sanitised, but that’s a few years ago. Has it gone back to anything like of old??

I did it last month and it isn’t worth going out your way in my opinion. It’s been filled with very loose rock and fill and isn’t the challenge it once was. Hodge Close/Oxen Fell seems to have also been done with a load of loose rock just making it feel like lumpy scree with hardly any bedrock to ride over.