Is this pollution or steam?

Recently been away to Montenegro and stayed at the Bay of Kotor which daily has big cruise ships arriving. This was the only ship all week to do this

I was out for a jog about 7:30 in the morning and it was already about 25 deg and climbing rapidly.

Yes there is some temperature inversion thing going on, but is this pollution or just relatively harmless steam (as suggested by someone on Imgur) For what it’s worth it hung around in the valley until the wind got up and blew it away

If it is pollution where can I report it ?

Definitely smoke

White smoke from ships funnel, I doubt it’s steam, more like diesel engine fumes, possibly showing as white because the engine is not under load.

Pollution sadly!

Yes that be pollution of the bad kind.

There will be some water vapor, but because they’ll be burning shitty high sulphur fuel oil it will have very bad SOx, NOx and particulate emissions. These can form smog depending on the conditions.

It’s a cruise ship, it’s ALWAYS pollution. Imagine how much liquid shite it’s concurrently dumping into the bay.

Thanks for confirming, so where can I report it ? Or am I waisting my time ?

Which law do you think is being broken? I’m not familiar with the local regulations surrounding emissions from cruise ships in Montenegro, but you don’t even have to particularly cynical to predict that trying to shame them on their social media is probably the only tool available to you.

I can’t think of a reason for steam to hang around like that on a warm day.
Certainly fumes, and it looks like it’s from a main funnel exhaust too.

Cruise ships burn the nastiest of fuels. Shipping is one the worst polluting methods of transport.

One of the most depressing things about the Norwegian Fjords is the smog generated by the cruise ships. With the funnels vastly lower than the land around it, it hangs around like you would not believe. Unless the ship is connected to an electrical shore power supply, it’s basically a community of 4000-5000 people leading the high life all powered by a horrible great diesel generator. You can’t conceive something similar being sanctioned for a land based community.

Imagine how much liquid shite it’s concurrently dumping into the bay.

This ‘probably’ isn’t true though. They will have holding tanks that should be pumped out further out to sea.

Cruising – it totally baffles me why it is so popular and does not get more bad press.

Not condensation/vapours from boiled liquids definitely smoke.

Cruise ships burn the nastiest of fuels.

I thought most run dual fuel systems. Cleaner stuff for inshore where the regulations demand it, dirty stuff in international waters.

It’s a cruise ship, it’s ALWAYS pollution. Imagine how much liquid shite it’s concurrently dumping into the bay.

It won’t be as it would be in contravention of MARPOL. Treated sewage can’t be discharged within 3 nautical miles of shore and untreated within 12 nautical miles of shore.

We went to Dubrovnik a few years ago. There was one doing that for 2 days in the port but black smoke. Disgusting.

It won’t be as it would be in contravention of MARPOL.

Those are the rules, yes, but I wouldn’t trust the cruise industry to be scrupulously observing them. Even being allowed to dump a small town’s worth of untreated sewage 12 miles off shore is a ridiculous proposition. They should be carrying it to onshore sewage treatment facilities.

Looks like startup fumes from a cold engine. Still pretty disgusting. A ship of that age should be fitted with scrubbers to remove particulates and SCR to knock back NoX. I bet though they can be bypassed when not in European waters. Any idea which of the 6 or 7 Mein Schiffs it was? Social media shaming is probably the only way forward.

Those are the rules, yes, but I wouldn’t trust the cruise industry to be scrupulously observing them. Even being allowed to dump a small town’s worth of untreated sewage 12 miles off shore is a ridiculous proposition. They should be carrying it to onshore sewage treatment facilities.

To do otherwise would risk detention of the vessel.
Vessels all over the world dump at greater than 12 miles from shore. It’s not feasible to hold it in tanks. The vessel I worked on could be at sea for months without visiting port.

A ship of that age should be fitted with scrubbers to remove particulates and SCR to knock back NoX.

Out of sight, out of mind.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/12/shippings-dirty-secret-how-scrubbers-clean-the-air-while-contaminating-the-sea?CMP=share_btn_tw&fbclid=IwAR3en_O1ZniPzv419xmBjmthb1gTfrvlRlbbot3leqcFvPAAxEsEaz6EQ3k

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/09/us-cruise-ships-using-canada-as-toilet-bowl-for-polluted-waste-alaska-british-columbia?fbclid=IwAR1z9ZgjnDGZV-uZL1Ep68LgQpLRRmaxqWI1ZPntWyVL33WkAq5aVH1bsZA

Vessels all over the world dump at greater than 12 miles from shore. It’s not feasible to hold it in tanks. The vessel I worked on could be at sea for months without visiting port.

But do they have a crew of 3000 people?

They should be carrying it to onshore sewage treatment facilities.

what? so it can be dumped in the sea…

But do they have a crew of 3000 people?

No, but they operate under the same maritime legislation.

Looks like startup fumes from a cold engine. Still pretty disgusting.

That would be plausible but it was doing it as it came in to the bay and when it was stationary all day.

The only difference later in the day was that the inversion stopped as the temp hit 36 deg and a wind started which blew it all away.

No other ships did it all week and the other 2 ships in the same bay at the same time were not producing such visible smoke….. maybe they are just better at hiding it ?!?

Well, no, so it can be treated just like your onshore turds are. We are talking about millions of gallons of untreated sewage here. Some cruise companies do treat their sewage onboard to varying degrees, but obviously there’s expense involved. Some cruise ships do ‘plug in’ to electricity in port to avoid sitting there churning out pollutants, but obviously there’s expense involved.

I was hoping that one of the benefits of the pandemic would be to cause a serious contraction to this shitty industry.

No other ships did it all week and the other 2 ships in the same bay at the same time were not producing such visible smoke….. maybe they are just better at hiding it ?!?

Scrubbers, perhaps. Many of which turn air pollution neatly into water pollution.

Oh my god @martinhutch I’d no idea that’s how they worked. I thought they were like DPF. That’s truly disgusting.

Well, no, so it can be treated just like your onshore turds are.

badly and then discharged into your local river/sea?

I think some of them hold the pollutants, which include various heavy metals etc, but IIRC, many are ‘open loop’, which means that the stuff they scrub out of the fumes ends up being deposited into the water. Crazy, isn’t it?

The most obvious problem is that they run on far more toxic fuel – ‘bunker fuel’, which is the maritime equivalent of powering your car by burning a tyre under the bonnet.

No, but they operate under the same maritime legislation.

I can walk up a mountain, dig a hole and have a crap in it. No laws broken, very little or no environmental impact. If 3,000 people walk up the same mountain every day and do the same thing, you would expect the law to get changed pretty quickly. But again, 12 miles offshore it’s out of sight, out of mind.

badly and then discharged into your local river/sea?

That may happen here on occasion, but it’s not a comparable situation. Would you really prefer that they puff off out of sight then discharge the tanks a short distance from shore rather than offload it to any kind of sewage treatment facility?

We are talking about millions of gallons of untreated sewage here.

MARPOL may state that you can dump greater than 12nm but I have yet to be on a vessel that doesn’t have an effective sewage treatment plant regardless.

Food waste too. That has to be macerated to X ppm before it can be discharged.

Anyway, thread derail to an extent.

Those commies at Friends of the Earth keep an eye on what the industry is up to. A large chunk of it still uses older, fairly inefficient sewage treatment facilities, so are dumping ‘minimally treated’ waste.

https://1bps6437gg8c169i0y1drtgz-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Cruise-_Report_2021_v5.pdf

Cruise ships in port, can get in the sea.

But:

Scrubbers, perhaps. Many of which turn air pollution neatly into water pollution.

Slightly sensationalist.

The principal bad stuff from bunker fuel (Sulphur and particulates) are already abundant in the sea.

I thought they were like DPF. That’s truly disgusting.

More like a combined DPF/SCR, although some do run SCR. They scrub out any particulates as well as the NOx/SOx by bringing the exhaust into contact with an alkaline solution (sea water).

I can walk up a mountain, dig a hole and have a crap in it. No laws broken, very little or no environmental impact. If 3,000 people walk up the same mountain every day and do the same thing, you would expect the law to get changed pretty quickly. But again, 12 miles offshore it’s out of sight, out of mind.

You’ve answered your own problem though.

1 poo on the side of a mountain is sufficiently diluted to not be a problem.

3000 macerated poos in the pacific, also not a problem.

Similarly a ship in port burning HFO is an environmental nightmare. Just like a city full of cars pumping out SOx/NOx causes smog locally and acid rain downwind.

A ship at sea burning HFO, no one/thing is around in it’s wake long enough to be exposed to a significant level. And because it’s still relatively small, and moving it’s not like the UK dumping acid rain on Scandinavia.

I would have thought that there are plenty of people in Kotor that don’t like this, and I expect that there probably are already movements / political parties trying to address this. However sadly, I expect a blind eye is turned due to the money it brings in.

3000 macerated poos in the pacific, also not a problem.

Maybe (that’s 3,000 macerated poos a day per average-sized ship, though, and the regulations still allow them to dump it within a handful of miles of the coast). And we just don’t know how many of them are actually treating the waste as extensively as they claim, as there is no requirement to report, or any way to verify. Not running the sewage plant fully saves fuel.

It may seem like a few drops of shit in the ocean, but the cruise industry has been accused of being one of the major contributors to the eutrophication of the Baltic. The nutrient content of macerated poo, and that lovely mashed up waste food from the buffet is quite possibly fuelling massive algal blooms that kill everything else.

Should be banned, cruises that is. Reminds me of Wall-E and Elysium films.

badly and then discharged into your local river/sea?

I think you are mixing up sewage treatment and badly managed storm overflows.

I admire your trust in the behaviour of the water companies.

i know it’s an aside from this thread, but some of the hottest, driest days of the year with river flows at their absolute lowest. southern water have been discharging raw untreated sewage this week. Noticed any storms?

It’s true, water companies regularly screw things up even with the massive amounts of regulation they are under. Imagine if they had effectively no regulation or scrutiny whatsoever, like cruise firms.

I’d love to know what the slurry tankers were waiting for when we docked at Southampton after a cruise on P&O’s Iona. Maybe to remove shit from holding tanks?
Or pump shit on to it?
Anyway, Iona uses liquefied natural gas as fuel. I’ve read that it’s reasonably clean as opposed to much else. Same as the new P&O ship, Arvia.
I stand to be corrected.*

*Said the man in the orthopaedic shoes.