Is ebiking “giving in/up”?

So, @argee, which area(s) and/or which trail systems did you study this? And over how many years did this (scientific) study take? 

Even where I live, which admittedly isn’t that muddy, plenty of lanes/trails/bridleways, etc are cut up and knackered already so more riders on any type of bike won’t make it any worse. Others, eg. Doethie or Black Mountains peaty routes,  are more sensitive and maybe best avoided… but I wouldn’t blame an ebike for riding where I can no longer go… I know I have contributed to local churn up myself.

Mine too, whatever relevance that has got to this thread 🤷

But sorry for your loss nonetheless

My point being. If some super fit XC rider who puts out twice the power output of your legs comes flying past, do you judge?

You have a perceived level of what ‘damage’ is allowed to the trails and you set that at leg power. Ergo leg powered damage is fine, but an ebike that may be putting out only as much output as a very fit rider isn’t?

I thought you might like to know the reason I’m being ‘boring’ tonight, since you were the one who started with the personal insults.

The point I was making, was if you can’t/wouldn’t ride a churned up trail on a normal bike, why is it OK to ride it on an eBike?

The point I was making, was if you can’t/wouldn’t ride a churned up trail on a normal bike, why is it OK to ride it on an eBike?

Some sections on our last outing, some people could ride, some couldn’t, regardless of what bike they were on.

Just because YOUR legs can’t make it through a section, why does it make it wrong that an ebike can? If you can’t make it through a section of a churned up trail, why is it ok that the next fitter bloke on a leg powered bike can?

Point missed completely.

If YOU can’t ride a section on a normal bike, is it ok if YOU then opt to go and blast through it on a eBike?

The point is, if a section is that questionably rideable, should anybody be riding it at all?

No, you’re making your point and you don’t like anyone questioning it.

You don’t know what sections weeksy rode when you chose to have a go at him

A thousand horses could have trampled through a section of bridleway making it hard to ride on a normal bike, but it might be passable on an ebike.

You don’t like ebikes, I get it. Don’t set the levels at what you deem acceptable and judge anyone that doesn’t stop at your imaginary line.

If you are that precious, don’t ride any trails in winter

Happy New year 😘

Just been for a ride… started at 11:44 so as to avoid NYE stuff and at the same time start the year as I hope it will carry on… riding a bike along the beach and through the woods.  It was great.  

Anyway.  Got me thinking… I am lucky (as pointed out to me a few threads go) I have good riding on my doorstep and I have reasonable motivation to ride .  I know loads of people, many on here, aren’t so lucky.  For some of them, if they have the cash, an ebike may well make the difference between never riding and riding.  Between having fun and feeling good, OK, or even less bad.  We all have opinions on e-bikes.  I feel that it is best if we express them with just a modicum of sensitivity and focus on encouraging people to ride and feel better.  Yes we should look after the trails as appropriate, no they may not be for everyone, but they are for some and for some they are a game changer.

hmmmm. Will probably get shot down for expressing riding generated thoughts but there we go. I thought I’d say it anyway. 

The point is, if a section is that questionably rideable, should anybody be riding it at all?

Good luck raising that with the equestrians

No, you’re making your point and you don’t like anyone questioning it.

Pot. Kettle. Black. 😘

Pot. Kettle. Black

Strong

Argument

Difference being, you’re judging people without substantial basis. I’m not…

Good luck raising that with the equestrians

Yeah. eBikers have nothing on entitled pricks on horses. Was a major issue locally years ago, until a local estate put lots of new fences and gates in due to it.

4 feet wide mess. Walkers were having to weave in and out the trees. One even asked my brother’s mate if he wouldn’t mind stepping into the mud so he didn’t have to get his horse’s feet muddy. Needless to say words were had.

4 feet wide mess. Walkers were having to weave in and out the trees

Can’t say I really enjoy riding through horse trodden tracks, whatever the bike – or on foot.

But I’m all for open access for all. There are places for walkers, bikers and equestrians to all enjoy the countryside, it’s a big space.

There will be pricks amongst all those disciplines, but they’ll probably be pricks whatever they are doing

Strong

Argument

Difference being, you’re judging people without substantial basis. I’m not

I merely questioned weeksy’s decision, and I’m sure he’s big enough to respond himself.

Yet you’re the one that started the personal insults, missed the point about if a trail is that muddy, should you be riding it on any bike, and now you’ve deflected onto bridleways, which I wouldn’t personally class as a trail.

And you appear to be judging me without substantial basis…

Can’t say I really enjoy riding through horse trodden tracks, whatever the bike – or on foot.

But I’m all for open access for all. There are places for walkers, bikers and equestrians to all enjoy the countryside, it’s a big space.

There will be pricks amongst all those disciplines, but they’ll probably be pricks whatever they are doing

Although I do agree with this.

Put your big boy/girl pants on if you think I’ve really been chucking personal insults about FFS

So if we aren’t riding bridleways, what, footpaths? Oh goodness me how dare you 🤣

I ride footpaths btw.

I’m not judging you, I’m just responding to your drivel

But I’m all for open access for all. There are places for walkers, bikers and equestrians to all enjoy the countryside, it’s a big space.

There will be pricks amongst all those disciplines, but they’ll probably be pricks whatever they are doing

+1 If we all had more access it would be better for all of us. Loads of horses where I live in the SE of England and the churned up trails can be pretty miserable but we are all just out trying to enjoy ourselves.

Although I do agree with this.

We can agree on something then. I think. You don’t seem that open to people using the countryside in the manner they choose to though, so I’m a bit confused

I was thinking about the <em style=”box-sizing: border-box; –tw-translate-x: 0; –tw-translate-y: 0; –tw-rotate: 0; –tw-skew-x: 0; –tw-skew-y: 0; –tw-scale-x: 1; –tw-scale-y: 1; –tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; –tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; –tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; –tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246 / 0.5); –tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; caret-color: #ffffff; color: #ffffff; font-family: Roboto, ‘Helvetica Neue’, Arial, ‘Noto Sans’, sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, ‘Segoe UI’, ‘Apple Color Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Symbol’, ‘Noto Color Emoji’;”>electric motorbike thing…

Good god man, let it go…

What percentage of current ebike users would happily use a more powerful engine/battery? I know a fair few have already modified there’s to make them illegal, but I was thinking in more general terms. If the power limit was, say, doubled (and assuming battery technology kept up) then I reckon close to 100% of users would use it, even if only for certain occasions. Tripled? Quadrupled? Same response I think. All the arguments about having to still work hard would disappear and all the benefits of getting out into the countryside would still exist. There is definitely a group of riders who aren’t that interested in the fitness benefits.

Some would I’m sure… Many wouldn’t… The last thing I’m thinking about when I’m riding my eBike is “I wish this had more power”… If you think eBike riders, even the ones that do fit all of your stereotypes, are riding along shouting “powwwwerrrr!” like a 2 wheeled Jeremy Clarkson or even that they aspire to, you are wildly mistaken! I, like many I suspect, use Eco and Trail almost all the time, never touch Boost mode. Eco just feels like me riding a normal bike but with a mild tailwind, Trail is more noticeable but I’m still putting in a lot of effort for my reward. Using both combined I can roughly double my climbing (thus doubling my number of descents) for the amount of effort I put in. It’s merely there to help achieve a bit more of the fun stuff (the descents) as and where I can. Given I have a combined 400bhp worth of 2 wheeled power (over 3 motorbikes, 2 of them with more power than your typical family car has), the very last thing in the world I am concerned with when riding an MTB is trying to get it to feel like some feeble 1970’s 50cc moped by multiplying its current power output!

As I come from an MX/Enduro background the Stark Varg I linked to earlier holds real interest for me and also the EM trials bike.

Though I don’t have the MX/Enduro background that Stu has (I have had a brief play at both, but 99.9% of my motorbiking thus far has been on road), I am similarly interested by the Stark Varg too… More to see how it is pushing the technology and the market forwards to be honest (electric motorbikes on the road don’t yet make anywhere near as good an argument as for off road yet) as it is making some real waves in the world of off road motorcycles. The unbelievers will note that this is indeed an Electric Motorbike though, the throttle, the 100kg+ weight and the enormous power output give the game away even if the lack of cranks and pedals don’t… Also those that would plan to use it, wouldn’t expect to be able to ride it anywhere they might be able to a bicycle… A HUGE part of the bicycle still!

Everyone that I know that’s still racing MX/enduro and riding trials also own ebikes and pedal bikes.<br style=”box-sizing: border-box; –tw-translate-x: 0; –tw-translate-y: 0; –tw-rotate: 0; –tw-skew-x: 0; –tw-skew-y: 0; –tw-scale-x: 1; –tw-scale-y: 1; –tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; –tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; –tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; –tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246 / 0.5); –tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; caret-color: #ffffff; color: #ffffff; font-family: Roboto, ‘Helvetica Neue’, Arial, ‘Noto Sans’, sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, ‘Segoe UI’, ‘Apple Color Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Symbol’, ‘Noto Color Emoji’;” />They can differentiate between them all and have no problems with any of them.<br style=”box-sizing: border-box; –tw-translate-x: 0; –tw-translate-y: 0; –tw-rotate: 0; –tw-skew-x: 0; –tw-skew-y: 0; –tw-scale-x: 1; –tw-scale-y: 1; –tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; –tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; –tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; –tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246 / 0.5); –tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; caret-color: #ffffff; color: #ffffff; font-family: Roboto, ‘Helvetica Neue’, Arial, ‘Noto Sans’, sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, ‘Segoe UI’, ‘Apple Color Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Symbol’, ‘Noto Color Emoji’;” />Seems it’s just a few MTBers that get all hung up on what someone else is doing.<br style=”box-sizing: border-box; –tw-translate-x: 0; –tw-translate-y: 0; –tw-rotate: 0; –tw-skew-x: 0; –tw-skew-y: 0; –tw-scale-x: 1; –tw-scale-y: 1; –tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; –tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; –tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; –tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246 / 0.5); –tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; caret-color: #ffffff; color: #ffffff; font-family: Roboto, ‘Helvetica Neue’, Arial, ‘Noto Sans’, sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, ‘Segoe UI’, ‘Apple Color Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Symbol’, ‘Noto Color Emoji’;” />I find it all a little odd TBH.

Certainly backs up my experience…

 I feel that it is best if we express them with just a modicum of sensitivity and focus on encouraging people to ride and feel better.  Yes we should look after the trails as appropriate, no they may not be for everyone, but they are for some and for some they are a game changer.

Another newbie…? Coming in here, talking sense, encouraging people to be reasonable…? Who do you think you are?!?! We’ll have none of that thank you.

So if we aren’t riding bridleways, what, footpaths? Oh goodness me how dare you

I regularly ride footpaths, but then north of the border that’s not an issue. I also ride (and dig) plenty official and unofficial trails.

As per the Scottish Outdoor Access Code, I believe the countryside is for the enjoyment of everyone, one key tenant of which is to act responsibly.

Another newbie…?

I guess so… only joined the forum about 15 years ago.

Coming in here, talking sense, encouraging people to be reasonable…? Who do you think you are?!?! We’ll have none of that thank you.

Well it’s worth  try. I guess posting what comes into your head while riding round in the dark is a bit like posting when you’re drunk.

Regarding the erosion thing, I remember years ago spending hours clearing out a pit of slop before a jump (top tabletop on Badger’s in Delamere), then scraping a borrow pit of good soil and filling the hole then tamping it down. Probably 4 hours work in total.

Along came a bunch of maybe 15 middle aged typical STW riders up the trail (a known downhill trail section) who all ploughed through the newly repaired trail without even acknowledging me stood at the side with my spade looking on is disbelief. Huge rut churned in the fresh soil.

I spend at least half of my riding time doing repairs, drainage etc, made a lot easier by using the ebike to get around carrying tools.

Trail erosion has been happening for years, way before e-bikes were invented, I suspect most of the “wheels on the ground, ebike hating proper cyclists” on here have never done an hour of trail work.

Oh dear, hasn’t this all got a bit ranty.

I expect there are people out there sitting in front of their computer and stamping hard on the carpet.

Trail erosion has been happening for years, way before e-bikes were invented

Yep, in the summer I ride on some single track that cyclists are not allowed to ride on (all singeltrack in New Forest!). Pretty much nobody rides on it but each year it just gets worse and worse. That erosion appears to be rain and horse related rather than bike.

I wonder if on a horse forum somewhere there are horse riders throwing insults about to other horse riders.

But I’m all for open access for all. There are places for walkers, bikers and equestrians to all enjoy the countryside, it’s a big space.

I beg to differ. Lockdown showed us that when all the proles couldn’t do anything else.

But thats for a different discussion.

one key tenant of which is to act responsibly.

Because the public is renowned for that.  What could go wrong?

There are places for walkers, bikers and equestrians to all enjoy the countryside, it’s a big space.

Mmm.. yes, in theory, but most of it is fields which aren’t much fun for anyone. The good bits tend to be concentrated in relatively small areas, which is where everyone ends up wanting to go.

Looks like Sagan’s given up as well!

So, @argee, which area(s) and/or which trail systems did you study this? And over how many years did this (scientific) study take? 

About the same sampling population as the study on ebikes are ‘destroying our trails’ discussions on here.

As @Colp has said above, erosion is pretty much how we have trails back in the days, now with trail building erosion is the bedding in, but most trails suffer damage more from riders using trails in poor conditions, it’s not exactly rocket science, currently i stick around FoD, Gloucestershire and so on, this time of year the same trails get knackered because of over use in poor conditions, not if it’s an ebike or normal bike, erosion in the main is also more down to more usage as well, FoD as an example is getting more and more popular every year, same as mountain biking is becoming more popular.

Increase in erosion I think is less to do with the type of bike, but the increase in users.

Though yes, ebikes maybe are part of the increase. It’s attracted many who would otherwise not ride a mountain bike.

But it’s a general increase in riders whatever the bike. Things like Trailforks exposing the quieter and cheeky trails to the masses hasn’t helped either.

Though I do feel ebikes promote sessioning on trails that would have previously just seen one run on a typical ride.

Frankly I’ve ended up going a lot more XC to find areas to ride that aren’t a mess, though that means bridleways to get to and from places and as said, horse churn is the problem there.

it’s strange logic to suggest more erosion is fine because erosion has always been there.

It’s a shame weeksy is selling his rise as I would be interested to see how long his lasts in those riding conditions. 

It’s a shame weeksy is selling his rise as I would be interested to see how long his lasts in those riding conditions

My Kenevo has been fine for 5 years

Tbh for experienced riders an ebike can cause less erosion than a regular bike.

I spend a much larger proportion of my time sat down on the ebike maintaining constant grip, even on my fat bike with 4″+ wide tyres I much more regularly loose grip and slip about.

Blaming Ebikes for trail erosions again shows the many misconceptions and bias of those on here who are sceptical.

The discussion on here is much like we had when gravel became a thing, and before that when fat bikes became popular, again when 29rs became more popular etc. The sceptical will remain sceptical and will try to shame, point the finger and ridicule the newcomer that is ‘ruining’ everything.

That’s not bad going, any rebuilds or replacements in that time?

Meh, trail erosion has been talked about as being a huge issue by ebikes, but in many years of riding i’ve never really seen a huge increase in trail damage in years

i think it depends on what kind of trails we’re talking about. In my local woods, the steeper, loamy trails cut in to the hill are riding very differently this winter and last. Could be the additional rain, could be additional use, but logic says a 10kg heavier ebike, often dragging a back brake to counter the momentum, and carrying more weight and momentum through the corners on tyres generally a bit fatter have to cause more damage. That doesn’t mean I think somebody on an ebike has any less right to be there or any more responsibility to the trail than a regular bike.

To a walker who walked the woods 30 years ago we’re both pricks cutting up the hillside. 

who all ploughed through the newly repaired trail without even acknowledging me stood at the side with my spade looking on is disbelief

Sadly that’s not an uncommon thing. Thankfully most riders will say thanks, with the occasional one even stopping to help out. I even get free beers at certain events due to one of my trail creations.

However if you want to experience the full entitlement, try closing a popular trail for an official volunteer dig, and having the audacity to ask riders to walk past the work site. I’ve witnessed the full range from barging past avoiding all eye contact, to the poor person on banksman duties being ranted at and threatened.

Not wanting to join in tribal warfare but a trend in the past few years is for much narrower tyres – one extreme to the other.  Narrower tyres dig deeper and I really have noticed this effect when out and about.

When it comes to wet ground, there is a lot of scope for the judicial application of Rule 1.  That goes for when you are on foot too.

Those of you who ride in Bringewood, Wyre etc – take a look out for all those parallel gullies.  That is hundreds if not more years of erosion, when one road got too deep they would take another.  There is also a particularly good example above Lucknow on Lothian Edge in the Lammermuirs.  Now there is a place where I could do with a little assistance.

I have had few bad experiences when out taking photographs for Geograph. One of them was from a group of mountain bikers on downhill trails.  Always a bit nervy when out and about in Englandshire, but was taken aback by the degree of friendly fire experienced here.

That’s not bad going, any rebuilds or replacements in that time

No, lost a bit of battery health, but that happens to all batteries. To be honest, some years it hasn’t done mega miles, but it’s definitely been used and abused

TAFKAS, that’s good to hear👍 The warranties have looked a little tight for me so it’s good to hear real experiences.

Monkeyboy. Good to hear the eebers cause less erosion👍 I’m not totally convinced by that one tbh.

What’s the general feeling about the extra environmental concerns on battery production and recycling?

It doesn’t look great currently but I guess things will have to improve with more use of batteries, is there a silver lining?

“What’s the general feeling about the extra environmental concerns on battery production and recycling?”

Production is definitely a big issue. There seems to be an increasing industry in battery recycling – there’s a small business local to me making power banks for phones etc using old ebike battery cells. I suspect we’ll see more of this “easy” recycling, using old batteries from vehicles (where energy storage vs mass is critical) to make home power storage banks for solar or off-peak power.

it’s strange logic to suggest more erosion is fine because erosion has always been there.

Don’t think anyone is saying that, in my post i’m saying that MTB trails are basically there because they are erosion, same as footpaths and so on through time. I find erosion is more down to overuse in poor conditions and poor riding, like every trail you go to has braking bumps in berms and so on, those are down to rider + bike weight + speed, ebikes are not really adding huge amounts to that type of issue and many more you see all over the trails.

Spend more time fixing trails, avoiding them in bad conditions and the usual stuff will do more than blame ebikes, when i see trails getting torn apart it’s usually a group ride all hitting a trail and doing stuff like shralping and slingshotting round berms and corners or running down a trail that’s a mud bath over and over again because it’s got a line carved in it now.

My Kenevo has been fine for 5 years

How many miles? My borrowed 2017 Levo needed a motor overhaul after 1600 mostly dry ones ones. No jet-washing and hardly any wet rides. That would be around five years too. I’m not sure ‘years’ is a good measure of anything apart from time.