Health & Safety Executive, cattle, people, dogs

This example near Frome was posted by Right to Roam recently.
Don’t want to see landowners taking measures like this any time soon 😐

I think the root cause of all this is that our rights of way infrastructure/ legislation isn’t fit for purpose and isn’t funded properly.  Some farmers think that they can get away with discouraging access and some probably don’t take it seriously. Perhaps they will now. Wouldn’t it be great if payment schemes favoured public benefits such as public access and paid for them so that access is much improved? I’ve seen long term well used permissive paths removed from farms when a scheme changed and the farmer no longer got cash for access.

I also think some farmers aren’t taking h&s seriously, not all of them, but I don’t think the industry has caught up with the modern industrial world in that respect. Culture, income levels, isolation all play parts I guess. 

There’s also something about responsible dog ownership as well in that there are seemingly to some, no sanctions regarding your behaviour with your dog. See dog poo trees etc, often the actions you experience as a responsible user of the countryside are the result of those who went before you. 

The amount of land that the public have a legal right to walk on is a tiny % of the country.

Depends which country you’re talking about.

Again, I’ve also ridden through fields of cows plenty of times, I’ve had the daft buggers chasing me only to stop and run away when I decided they were getting too close and stopped to hop over the fence. I can see how that could lull someone into a false sense of security and not recognise the difference.

I agree more education is needed.

I’ve often thought about this with bulls, I’ve seen a few signs over the years at gates to fields which has put me off from entering and finding an alternative route.

If the sign is genuine and there is a genuine risk from being attacked by a bull, is a sign enough to mitigate it?

Or could the sign be fake to discourage walkers?

Who’d a thought it , mud in the countryside , whatever next ?

Sorry couldn’t resist.

As for h&s on farms, it’s one of the most deadly professions in the UK, so I’d hope they were taking it seriously.

Let’s be honest I have walked with relatives close to the urban fringe and who in their right mind enjoys walking along a fenced off path? Obviously done by landowners keen to minimise problems but where’s the pleasure ? I’d rather take my chances in the open , bull or no bull, tin foil hat on.

Rights of way across farmland come with responsibilities…keep dog on lead and

End up squished by cattle.
I would never keep my dog on a lead near cattle. If my dog was likely to try and chase them I would just avoid, but she’s not so she goes off lead. I’d put her on lead around sheep though on the odd occasion she has come across sheep unexpectedly she has not chased them.
She can outrun cattle, I can’t.

There’s a significant portion of “the public” who can’t or won’t be educated. In fact, I reckon the cows are more intelligent than half the people walking through the fields.

Exactly, which is why the onus (rightly) is on the farmer, because they should know intimately what cattle with calves can/will do. The countryside is traversed with RoW and has been since the dawn of time, nothing here as changed, nothing here is new. Protect your livestock by keeping them away (as far as you can) from folks who don’t know one end from the other.

The countryside is traversed with RoW and has been since the dawn of time, nothing here as changed, nothing here is new.

The thing that is new is self-entitled twunts who think that having a footpath through a field gives them the right to use the whole field for exercising their dogs, and the ignorance or arrogance towards livestock.

The logical conclusion is fenced corridors as per the pictures above. Be careful what you wish for.

I’d ban dog owners from fields, as most have less brain cells than their furry friend.  What idiot goes near big animals and their young ? It’s mad we have to protect against idiots.

We were on a bridleway in summer (open field) and one of the lads suspected a foal in the next field belonged to the horse that was stood near the bridleway, so we diverted away from the horse so as to go no-where near it.

and the ignorance or arrogance towards livestock.

Well I imagine that’s going to happen precisely once in each case isn’t it?

This is what I mean about farmers paying attention to this shit. They don’t want the hassle of dealing with stupid walkers and their even stupider dogs , walkers shouldn’t be put in the situation of having to deal with your dumb-assed cows. If, on the other hand you don’t give a shit about money, or being fined, then by all means leave you cows unattended in fields with popular RoW in them, and you’ll soon have won the stupid prize for entering the stupid competition, like the farmer in the article. 

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Who’d a thought it , mud in the countryside , whatever next ?

Cattle?

Ewan – bullocks or bull calves ie do they still have their knackers? Bullocks are not dangerous at all – just stupid bored and inquisitive. they usually have their knackers removed when pretty young

Well I didn’t get that close to check, I just verified they didn’t have udders (one of them was a huge bull, none were cows). Whilst they may be bored and inquisitive they are still dangerous (esp since I had a toddler with me – I turned around) and it’s illegal to have them in a field with a foot path going through it. The land in question is open park land (now slightly less open as the owner has out some fences up) – the new owner is not keen on people walking on the foot path (they have asked me not to!).

From farmers weekly (i’m guessing they’re correct! but ramblers etc also agree):

The general rule set out in statute is that it is an offence to allow a bull in a field crossed by a public right of way, but there are exceptions to this.

No offence will be committed if either: the bull in question is under 10 months old or it does not belong to a recognised dairy breed and is at large in any field or enclosure in which cows or heifers are also at large.

A dairy breed defined by the act is one of the following: Ayrshire, British Friesian, British Holstein, Dairy Shorthorn, Guernsey, Jersey and Kerry.

Since the bulls/bullocks don’t have cows or heifers with them, it’s illegal.

Bullocks are not bulls and not illegal to have in a field next to a footpath.  Neither are bull calves as your quote makes clear.

Bulls it is illegal

Bullocks are not bulls and not illegal to have in a field next to a footpath. Neither are bull calves as your quote makes clear.

Bulls it is illegal

The situation as explained was that there was a mature bull and several males (which may or may not had balls). Since there were no female cows at all and the bull was clearly over 10 months old, it is illegal as my quote makes clear.

Note the legislation make no distinction between a castrated bull and an uncastrated bull.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/69

There isno such thing as a castrated bull.

Collins dictionary would take issue with that: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/bullock

Either way, the legislation recognises bulls, heifers, and cows – if bullocks were ok then it seems likely that they would specify. It also seems likely that the NFU, Farmers Weekly, HSE, ramblers, etc would probably call out this gaping loophole.

This is besides the point, as I’m sure you can see the situation I described is illegal as there is a bull in a field over ten months old that is unaccompanied by cows or heifers.

Bull is illegal yes.  Bullocks and bull calves are not.

A Male that is castrated is a Bullock not a bull

Since there were no female cows at all and the bull was clearly over 10 months old, it is illegal as my quote makes clear.

What breed were they? How old were  they! Were they bullocks or bulls?

Public education as I say.

it’s probably specialist knowledge for many, unsurprisingly, but the situation was likely not illegal. From your quote of the coutryside act:

“… it does not belong to a recognised dairy breed and is at large in any field or enclosure in which cows or heifers are also at large.

A dairy breed defined by the act is one of the following: Ayrshire, British Friesian, British Holstein, Dairy Shorthorn, Guernsey, Jersey and Kerry.”

At first glance, most beef breeds, such as Herefords, Simmentals, Charolais, Aberdeen Angus, Limousin present a much bigger, muscular physique in a mature bull than a Friesian/Holstein but I know I’d rather be in a field with a dopey Angus or Hereford than a lanky black and white beastie…

Limousins can be awkward customers.  Only bad bull I ever worked with was a Lim.  About 20 years ago a gas engineer was killed by one in a road in Lanarkshire by one. Broke out of a field.
I usually looked after Herefords. We used A I for the Jerseys Jersey bulls are evil.

I wonder if Welsh farmer is watching this thread, sniggering at the amateur speculations.

@fasgadh Yes, good point about Limousins, and they can run like horses!

I’m not directly involved in farming nowadays, but my brother is. All of his suckler cows are now Stabilisers, which are nice and placid. Sticking to the topic of cattle-H&S, they are a pretty nondescript brown breed, which look a bit like any number of beef x store cattle, and i’d question most people’s ability to judge them from the edge of a field, with calves or not.

There are a few trend that have affected the situation: Suckler herds have become common since the extensification subsidies until the early 00’s. Beef cattle being less labor intensive, and the collapse of small producers in milk production as well as the recent trend of grass-fed beef as a preference means they are more viable. As a result there are lot more cows and calves in lowland pasture where there weren’t 20 years ago.  Also, since the BSE crisis, there is a 30 month maximum age stipulation for prime beef cattle. (there’s a bit more latitude now, but commercially, it’s under 30 months) Hence, a lot more younger cattle than years ago.

It’s also probably the case that a lot fewer dog owners encounter cattle, so they and their dogs aren’t used to the animals, nor can they identify potential dangers, like cows and calves. As has been noted above, there’s a balance between an uncontrolled dog off the lead, chasing livestock, and an owner being trampled by keeping their dog on the lead close to them and being unable to fend off cattle. Personally, I would avoid cows in a field with cattle if I had my dogs with me, but if I did have a load of cows run towards me, I’d let them off and trust my recall- dogs can usually outrun cattle. Also, cattle will chase you if you run -because, why not!? It’s fun for them. Stand your ground, wave your arms and shout every expletive you know at them and they will generally get scared- they’re not looking for a fight. Carrying a stick makes you a lot more confident, and if it feels bad, whack them across the nose with it, that stops everything but the most determined dairy bull, and you shouldn’t have got near to them at all. -And don’t get behind any heifers or cows, even a little kick in the shin hurts like ****,

In the end though, farming communities, and anyone who wants to see greater public awareness and value in the countryside, needs to encourage access. No-one will care about an environment they have no access to or knowledge of. There is definitely a lot of toxic behaviour by farmers and defintely some massive ignorance by walkers, but it doesn’t have to be a polarising issue.

I wonder if Welsh farmer is watching this thread, sniggering at the amateur speculations.

Indeed. And he is not the only farmer on here.

. The countryside is traversed with RoW and has been since the dawn of time, nothing here as changed, nothing here is new

And yet we’ve managed without fencing off those RoW for all this time….

Anyway, don’t need me adding to the list of folks talking bullocks.

it’s probably specialist knowledge for many, unsurprisingly, but the situation was likely not illegal. From your quote of the coutryside act:

“… it does not belong to a recognised dairy breed and is at large in any field or enclosure in which cows or heifers are also at large.

A dairy breed defined by the act is one of the following: Ayrshire, British Friesian, British Holstein, Dairy Shorthorn, Guernsey, Jersey and Kerry.”

At first glance, most beef breeds, such as Herefords, Simmentals, Charolais, Aberdeen Angus, Limousin present a much bigger, muscular physique in a mature bull than a Friesian/Holstein but I know I’d rather be in a field with a dopey Angus or Hereford than a lanky black and white beastie…

It was a beef breed not a diary breed. A Belted Galloway. Either way, I still think i’m correct. The legislation says:

If, in a case not falling within subsection (2), the occupier of a field or enclosure crossed by a right of way to which this Part applies [F522or a restricted byway] permits a bull to be at large in the field or enclosure, he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding [F523level 3 on the standard scale].

So there was a bull in the field that was not a bullock. Based on the above it’s illegal unless….

Subsection (1) shall not apply to any bull which—
(a)does not exceed the age of ten months; or
(b)is not of a recognised dairy breed and is at large in any field or enclosure in which cows or heifers are also at large.

Exception (a) is not met as it was clearly not less than 10 months old. How do I know? My aunt and uncle are diary farmers and I’m not an idiot.

Exception (b) is not met as there were no cows or heifers also at large.

Therefore illegal. The bullock thing is irrelevant.

Unlike a Holstein this isn’t a black and white issue, it’s more grey like a Belgian Blue.

Farmers are under a lot of financial pressure right now and facing uncertainty regarding what payment are actually coming from the government to replace the EU Payments. This may mean a change in what they are using their land for and little money to make changes (would you trust this Government to be doing the right thing!)

Whilst we have had ROW since dawn of time, most people now have very little connection to farming and thus very little understanding of livestock  animal behaviour.

Yes farmers need to ensure they keep known dangerous animals away from areas with ROW but for some they may have little choice in doing so without fencing those areas off (and being accused of stopping people using their land) given need to rotate land and stock. Yes there will be some who do go out of their way to be obstructive and they should be reported.

However many dog owners also need to be educated that they have reponsilbities beyond picking up the poo and hanging it on a tree too. being aware of behaviour and modifying their own. Sadly many don’t feel that they should as they have RIGHTS but not RESPONSIBILITIES.

Perhaps a joint education campaign with NFU, Dogs Trust, RSPCA, Kennel Club is needed to actually provide some information.

Wouldn’t it be great if payment schemes favoured public benefits such as public access and paid for them so that access is much improved?

Think just now we’re on the ending of the Basic Payment Scheme, which is changing and reducing, and may be disappearing fast, which in turn will mean all those RoWs on farmland will not be worth doing anything with for farmers in another few years, and with governments not caring about this, expect to see a cull of footpaths.

As for the comments about farmers should know better, they probably do, but they’ll have limited grazing land and may be using that field due to disease, toxic risks in fields and so on, say there’s a known badger sett with TB in the one you’re using, do you risk the entire cattle being killed off due to proximity, or just move them, there are many reasons why this could happen, not just down to farmers should know better, most are just one cattle disaster away from giving up!

It was a beef breed not a diary breed.

That’s a turn up for the books. 

It was a beef breed not a diary breed.

So you might not have the same problem tomorrow?

There was an attempted cull of paths in E&W around 1985.  We had CLA membership then and their publication was full of guff about them being anachronisms  and needing “rationalisation”.  Marples and Beeching came to mind instantly. It was considered politically but fell foul of the rural vote – those most affected did not live in inner city areas!  I have been expecting another try over the past few years.

I have never had hassle with cows unless there’s a dog in picture somewhere – we had cows as a kid, and there’s plenty around here, and I routinely use paths running thro’ cow fields, without ever anything much ever happening

But cows really dislike dogs, and will actively, and aggressively deter them.   Dog owners, be aware

“There’s no money in farming”

And they’ll probably start to outlaw dairy/ livestock farming and replace it with something more nutritious…

Cows are quite curious animals – they usually come over to see what’s going on. Best thing is to stay calm, move slowly. Don’t flap or shout – you will scare them + make the situation worse.

Couple of helpful vids here:

Hemp farming looks good, if you’re not in the UK and controlled by strict regulations, and as always, huge costs for everything to do with farming it.

Back to the thread though, still think that dog walkers need to be more thoughtful in this, not sure how many instances there are where there is no other option other than walking your dog through fields with cattle, don’t think i’ve ever gone near a field with cattle with our dog, more through planning than accident.

Maybe the govt pays farmers to grow hemp on the fields, designated to be fallow.

They don’t harvest the hemp, just let it wilt and fertilise the soil.

Hemp can grow nearly anywhere in the uk for pennies?

Not even a century ago, it was our main source for textiles.

We’re going to need a replacement for petrochemicals as our source of textiles.

And we require legislation to reflect the amount of dogs on our streets.
If the farmers were leading their cattle through our streets, cr())@&£ everywhere, there would be a raft of legislation, licketyspit.