Hardtails rule? Critique my options…

the “spring” in steel (from a vertical compliance perspective) was purely due to seatpost diameter. Now seatposts have all got fatter to accomodate droppers, steel is just a heavier material to make frames from.

this is a good bit of research that proves it out.. https://www.cyclingabout.com/why-impossible-steel-frames-more-comfortable-than-aluminium/

👆 Yeah, but skinny tubes look nice, so steel = betterer.

the “spring” in steel (from a vertical compliance perspective) was purely due to seatpost diameter. Now seatposts have all got fatter to accomodate droppers, steel is just a heavier material to make frames from.

this is a good bit of research that proves it out.. https://www.cyclingabout.com/why-impossible-steel-frames-more-comfortable-than-aluminium/

You’re right about vertical flex, there’s not much of it in an average bike frame, a bit in the front end and that’s about it. But that article is only looking at seated comfort / vertical flex and much of the flex and comfort we feel (imo) when riding some steel road bikes or MTBs hard is the lateral twist, the spring you feel when you load a bike in corners, hit things at odd angles or sprint or climb in a big gear. Steel frames can still have enough flex to feel good for some rider’s tastes if they’re not overbuilt for big sus forks or roadie sprinter stiffness.

That Ra looks lovely but are the chainstays really 410mm? And it’s a full 29er not a mullet?
I’m still riding the last fast forward I picked up for buttons in covid which has sliding dropouts that go from 424 to 444 I think. With them all the way forward you can’t get much tyre in.
It has a habit of eating drive side dropouts though due to the design (and recently the bolt on brake mount cracked too) so although spares are available I’m always vaguely looking at steel hardtails for when it’s time to replace it… that ra is definitely at or near the top of the “if money no object” pile.
Pink moxie looks ace.
But I think I’m the only person I’ve ever ridden with who’s never owned a cotic so I think that might be the answer.

I saw a Bird Forge in the flesh last weekend at Tweedlove and it was really really nice

Ive just built up a Honzo DL and its so much fun

Unsure if its still on display but Bird HQ in Eversley has one of the stainless forges and its utterly gorgeous.

I – personally – can’t currently justify something with 853 labels which I’d hope would provide lower weight and more compliance (I know there’s more to it that that, but it’s a starting point).

I believe it’s often just the downtube which is 853 anyway.

Even when they put the 853 sticker on the seat tube.

I’d add Sonder Signal to that list…

Stealth Ad: I happen to be selling a Small…

Hardtails have to be steel. It’s the law. Loads around to choose from, can’t go wrong with a Moxie or any of the Cotics. Stanton have replaceable drop-outs to change between geared and single speed (I’ve had a Switchback and a Slackline, both great but preferred the Slackline) if you need to change along the line. I have a BTR now, out of budget (even more so price has risen again) but after trying vartious frames over the years it’s the one I’ve never even considered changing. Unless I go for a 29″ version…

https://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/readers-rides-bike-check-james-btr-ranger/

The Solaris Max with 120mm forks is ace for Chilterns riding.
Cotic’s Cascade built up with flat bars and 100mm forks is also ace around here.
The new Solaris looks like it could be the perfect balance between the Solaris Max and the Cascade.

That Ra looks lovely but are the chainstays really 410mm? And it’s a full 29er not a mullet?

I’m out tonight but will measure when I get home. Feels short though. Full 29×2.6.

I think the 410mm is right, but from the geometry table it looks like that’s the horizontal length, so not comparable to a lot of other reported numbers and made shorter by the crazy bb drop (Cotic, Stanton, and potentially Pipedream measure the actual length, which is longer obviously)

Kona Honzo steel is 415mm actual length for comparison

👆 Yeah, but skinny tubes look nice, so steel = betterer.

That’s as good a reason as any for steel. Maybe that’s why I’m not enjoying my alu hardtail – it could all be superficial and in my head…

Coal Pony?
https://www.coalbicycles.com/pony

Singular Swift Mk5 on it’s way. Sam was reluctant to leave straight steerers and 27.2mm seattubes due to the increase in stiffness. He’s relented on the latest Swift, but it’ll be a whippy as it’s possible to be while still being compatible with available forks and droppers. Looks nice, SSable. Budget?

Chilterns is Singular country. Drop Sam a line, he might have a demo available.

Sonder Signal ST?

Takes a 130mm fork, 29in wheels, boost spacing, internal dropper routing

I’ve recently changed my hardtail from a Production Privee Oka to a Sonder Signal ST, and I absolutely love it.

I’ve had a PP Shan and the Oka and they were both amazing frames but you know, just fancied a change and fancied trying 29er.

PP Oka

Sonder Signal ST

It’s a lovely bike to ride, really feels like quality build… quality and my medium feels like spot on geo to me.
I run 150 Revelations on it and it feels good.

I’ve owned a few ALU hardtails in my time but since my first steel one, a Charge Blender a good few years ago now, I will never ride anything other than steel.
Love the look, love the feel.

It’s not a vertical compliance thing as in having actual ‘travel’. Of course not. But there is something in the resonance of the material that makes it feel different to ally and heaven forbid, carbon.

But yeah, the Sonder really is a lovely bike. 😊

It’s not a vertical compliance thing as in having actual ‘travel’. Of course not. But there is something in the resonance of the material that makes it feel different to ally and heaven forbid, carbon.

It certainly is a lovely looking bike. My view, and confirmed by the article posted, is that it’s 100% placebo. And there is nothing wrong with that. It’s the soft stuff that make any difference, tyres and saddle (it used to be the seat post to a tiny extent too) in feel between alu and steel. Carbon will have a tiny damping effect that will amplify the placebo effect.

“My view, and confirmed by the article posted, is that it’s 100% placebo.”

That article is very poor engineering. Humans are heavy, the dynamic forces involved when riding a bike off-road are high, the levers are long (distances from contact patches to BB/pedals & headset/grips) and bikes are really not very rigid in most directions.

The only direction in which they’re pretty rigid is when all loads are applied within the vertical plane, but the only time that happens is when rolling in an absolutely straight line, sitting down, minimal weight on your feet and hands and not pedalling.

Actually RIDE a MTB off-road and there’s a lot of twisting going on, relative to humans’ very sensitive ability to feel tiny changes (even though we’re bad at quantifying this feel).

Pipedream Sirius S6….?

Sirius S6.
A delivery date for the Sirius S6 (CrMo) is yet to be confirmed so we’re considering offering UK or EU-built options in the interim. Information will be posted soon or contact us to register your interest and to be added to the mailing list.

A titanium version of the Sirius S6 will also be offered and we hope to open an order book in March. Specification and photos will be available from mid-March. Contact us to register your interest and to be added to the mailing list.

I have a Pace RC529 and love it as a mullet, 27 5 x 2.8 on the back really takes some of the sting out.

My view, and confirmed by the article posted, is that it’s 100% placebo.”

Yeah, I mean everyone has a view and many people just don’t pick up on certain things I guess, but I can only go by my experience of riding lots of hardtails over the years of aluminium and steel in many different styles of frame. That’s better confirmation for me than some article (which is almost entirely based on measuring physical movement, rather than feel, which is obviously less easy to measure/quantify)

Steel feels different to me (and quite a number of other riders). That’s all I know.

I’ll just drop this here 🙂👍

NBD

But that article is only looking at seated comfort / vertical flex and much of the flex and comfort we feel (imo) when riding some steel road bikes or MTBs hard is the lateral twist, the spring you feel when you load a bike in corners, hit things at odd angles or sprint or climb in a big gear. Steel frames can still have enough flex to feel good for some rider’s tastes if they’re not overbuilt for big sus forks or roadie sprinter stiffness.

Ref 1: your average slow-mo edit on a HT showing lots of sideways wheel and frame flex, twisting if bars etc.

Ref 2: see the compliance.

Just taken delivery of this and I absolutely love it. Can highly recommend a Fairlight Holt. Not UK built, but designed by Fairlight and built with good old fashioned Reynolds 853. The frame is a work of art. As are the Bentley x Fairlight dropouts.

“That’s better confirmation for me than some article (which is almost entirely based on measuring physical movement, rather than feel, which is obviously less easy to measure/quantify)”

You could do it by attaching strain gauges – because it is physical movement but it’s small amounts at varying frequencies.

The other things that I think make a big difference to how hardtails feel on rougher trails are the rear tyre diameter (obvious but it does make a case for full 29 over mullet) and the bottom bracket height – the lower the BB, the more your feet pull the rear tyre into an obstacle rather than over it. And also chainstay length. Basically a hardtail with a higher BB and longer chainstays will be less harsh through the rough than one with a lower BB and shorter chainstays. If you draw the force vectors involved you can see why.

I like low bottom brackets but there’s definitely a tipping point where they’re less good on a hardtail (especially as you can’t dynamically unweight to lift the BB as on a full-sus). This is less of an issue on the steeps where the fork and front wheel take more of the load.

The Moxie with a 160mm fork hits a really nice balance of geometry (-60mm static BB drop FYI).

Those kind of “everyone else is wrong because science” articles really do boil my piss.

We’re all just credulous idiots and we’re imagining that steel frames generally tend to be a bit more comfy and muted in their ride feel than aluminum are we? And this one guy knows the truth because he’s got a physics degree and some graphs.

OK then.

I have never had a steel bike before the Holt. It generally feels a bit more comfy and muted than any bike I’ve had before. Basing this on back to back rides, on the same route that I’ve been riding for years. I’m sold. Steel is real etc.

I really fancy trying a Switch9er ti

But ££££

Might go for the steel version for my next bike, dunno

Another vote for the Cotic BFeMax.
Mine has been awesome! I’ve done everything on it from BPWs to XC epics.
Lots of mounts on the frame for extra bottle cages and accessories/storage.
It’s been my go to bike since building it in January.

“Those kind of “everyone else is wrong because science” articles really do boil my piss.”

The thing is, 99% of the time the article is the thing that’s wrong because it’s BAD science!

To be fair the article on CyclingAbout is only talking about vertical compliance and seated comfort so fair to say a frame’s material is worth ‘not a lot’ there.
What would be wrong is thinking that’s all there is to it in terms of general comfort perception or saying that article’s points mean that material makes no difference in overall ride feel/quality, or steel is heavier for no reason, etc. He’s also talking about touring bikes rather than a singletrack/XC MTB – it’s not far off the mark to say much flex anywhere in a loaded ‘proper’ touring bike frame isn’t a good thing.

@Chakaping – I think a good steel HT that’s been made well from the right tube set and meant to be forgiving will be, but a steel hardcore HT for blasting down the rough and hitting jumps and drops probably won’t be very compliant. I expect a BFe or Moxie feels stiffer than a Sherpa as they’re made for different things.

The same can be said for the old On-One Summer Season bikes, they were quite heavy and ‘dead-feeling’ compared to the Charge Blender at the time (which was a great bike)

I’m out tonight but will measure when I get home. Feels short though. Full 29×2.6.

@legometeorology has it. If you measure horizontally between the BB and the rear axle, it’s 410. If you measure along the chainstay, it’s about 415 due to the BB drop.

He’s also talking about touring bikes rather than a singletrack/XC MTB

Fair enough, didn’t realise it was so specific. I’m not really interested in steel road bikes myself, carbon is easily the best for my needs. But I’ve got a steel gravel bike and it definitely brings the same benefits we enjoyed on our old-school steel MTBs.

The same can be said for the old On-One Summer Season bikes, they were quite heavy and ‘dead-feeling’ compared to the Charge Blender at the time (which was a great bike)

I had a Blender briefly. It had an amazingly soft ride for a 4130 frame. Shame it was so horrible to pedal with that slack seat tube.

Yeah, I had the same problem. I loved the Blender, but because it was only in one size it meant that by the time I had the saddle up high enough to actually pedal it anywhere I was right off the back. Awesome fun on the downs, jumps and pump tracks though. Would quite like one now as a spare bike, but they’re like hen’s Terry and those that are for sale are more than I want to pay for a bike.

Would highly recommend the Stif Squatch, wasn’t shopping when I had a ride on my mate’s and bought one when I got home. Wasn’t far off my usual pace on enduro trails and was every bit as happy the next day heading out on an XC ride.

Thought of selling it as my back just cannot take the hardtail at the moment (full sus is bad enough) but it’s the one bike I look forward to riding again when I’ve sorted my back, got fit and lost some weight.

Had a 27.5 Cotic Soul and I find the Stif is a much, much better as an all rounder.

Would quite like one now as a spare bike,

I’ve owned a lot of bikes and it’s one of only two I’d like to still have, just for mucking about on now there are pump tracks all over the place.

That’s exactly why I want one.

I know you’ve listed the Sherpa but have a look at the Slackline, such a great bike and can do pretty much anything depending how you build it.

I’ve had a few and still have my gen 3, it’s awesome.

@tomhoward, how do you find the ride with the bb that low?