Bad actors stoking hate again (Southport Stabbings)

So, all leave will now be cancelled.

Does this just mean future leave for officers or those already away somewhere have to come back to work?

ie – if I’ve booked a holiday a year ago, once a lifetime sort of deal, do I then cancel that holiday & lose that money or is it a negotiable thing

Careful if you’re thinking of removing it, there have been reports of stanley knife blades embedded underneath racist stickers.

Cheers but I removed it and the other one immediately. It was put outside a house where an Indian family lived for a few months, fortunately they won’t have seen it as they moved out recently.

From the desk of Nigel Farage – more dog whistles than Crufts. What a **** he is.

I have been totally appalled by the levels of violence seen in the last couple of
days. The levels of intimidation and threat to life have no place in a functioning
democracy. That so many police officers have been injured trying to keep the
peace is shocking, and we should not discount the use of the army if the
situation were to deteriorate further.

In the short term, we will quell the riots, but deeper long-term problems
remain.

Ever since the soft policing of the Black Lives Matter protests, the impression
of two-tier policing has become widespread. The Prime Minister’s faltering
attempts to address the current crisis have only added to that sense of
injustice.

The majority of our population can see the fracturing of our communities as a
result of mass, uncontrolled immigration, whether legal or illegal. Yet to
attempt to debate this in the public arena leads to immediate howls of
condemnation. A population explosion without integration was always going to
end badly. I have said this for many years.

We must have a more honest debate about these vital issues and give people
the confidence that there are political solutions that are relevant to them. A
recall of Parliament would be an appropriate start to this.

Q: did BLM protests ever have any issues with widespread rioting in various cities around the country?

I genuinely cannot remember. My suspicion is no?

Does this just mean future leave for officers or those already away somewhere have to come back to work?

No immediate future leave can be booked, all officers on rest days will be recalled to duty within working directive rules, many training courses will be cancelled. I don’t know the rules for recalling officers actually on leave,  or stopping them  leaving for the airport tomorrow.

Q: did BLM protests ever have any issues

It’s not important. As @PrinceJohn points out. It’s just a dog whistle.

When Farage says things like

as a result of mass, uncontrolled immigration, whether legal or illegal. Yet to
attempt to debate this in the public arena leads to immediate howls of
condemnation. A population explosion without integration was always going to
end badly. I have said this for many years.

What he means is “I want the black and brown people to all go away, I don’t care how” . You can’t have a sensible discussion with some-one who thinks like that.

The one in London looked much less violent than some of the others, but there were over 100 people arrested IIRC. While the ones in the north and Midlands have typically had single digit arrests each.

There will be many more arrests made. A lot of the trouble makers will already be known to the police.

Are you suggesting Starmer stands at his lectern and tells the country sorry there’s nowt he can do because of the tories? Whether he likes it or not it’s now his job to ensure public order and security, if he can’t do that he’s finished before he’s even started.

Of course he should just snap his fingers a another 10000 trained police officers will appear.

“ It’s not important.”

Very much is important – context. Farage is undoubtedly dog whistling. But it’s much easier to refute his claim of 2 tier policing if you can prove it isn’t so..

A population explosion without integration was always going to

end badly. I have said this for many years.

Which is also an insult to the many people who have come to the UK from abroad and integrated remarkably well in the main.

But **** the semantics. That’s not what Farage is about. He’s a racist **** who has tapped into a long suppressed seam of racism and ignorance in the UK and is exploiting it for all it is worth. Bouncing Call Me Dave into a referendum was his big break and he hasn’t looked back since his side won.

I bet there’s a fair bit of support for the underlying issues

Undoubtedly. And it is entirely reasonable and lawful for people to hold those views and to protest them in a lawful way. That’s the ‘downside’ of a democracy, that those views get airtime, no matter how hateful I find them.

What we see happening currently is not lawful or legitimate – either the protesting of those that genuinely hold the grievances against the rise in immigration; setting fire to a hotel and attacking a mosque is not a legitimate protest. And the scum that have jumped on it to loot and rob, is just pure lawlessness, it’s not even protest.

I don’t know who I have less respect for.

And the ringleaders – the on the ground SM co-ordinators, or the big name SYL, Farage, Grimes, Fox, Tice, etc. No printable words for them.

What he means is “I want the black and brown people to all go away, I don’t care how” . You can’t have a sensible discussion with some-one who thinks like that.

No, but you can properly call it out for the dog whistle and lies that it is. Challenge him for evidence, show the facts that show he’s wrong.

It won’t change the views of many of his supporters, but at the moment his dangerous bollocks spouting is simply going unchallenged in the media and in politics.

His precious freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences. Let’s see comparisons for arrests, injuries and property damage between BLM, pro-Palestinian demos and these right wing idiots and their – let’s be honest – any reason for a bit of action hangers on.

Of course he should just snap his fingers a another 10000 trained police officers will appear.

Don’t be daft, no one thinks that is the case. But as has been mentioned on this thread, there are large metropolitan areas such as London, Wales and Scotland where there is very little trouble which have significant police resources. If they’re not being deployed then they should be. If they don’t have any resources then other options need to be considered. Shrugging his shoulders and saying ‘sorry we don’t have enough police’ is not an option for Starmer, I would have thought that was obvious?

No, but you can properly call it out for the dog whistle and lies that it is. Challenge him for evidence, show the facts that show he’s wrong.

It won’t change the views of many of his supporters, but at the moment his dangerous bollocks spouting is simply going unchallenged in the media and in politics.

His precious freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences. Let’s see comparisons for arrests, injuries and property damage between BLM, pro-Palestinian demos and these right wing idiots and their – let’s be honest – any reason for a bit of action hangers on.

+1.

Q: did BLM protests ever have any issues with widespread rioting in various cities around the country?

From memory, only one BLM march turned nasty when police horses were galloped through them – I think the only other bother came from right wing counter-protests.

But it’s much easier to refute his claim of 2 tier policing if you can prove it isn’t so..

and

No, but you can properly call it out for the dog whistle and lies that it is

Yep, you can if you want, but just as long as you’re aware that it’ll make no difference. Farage and the folks that support him, and the groups of interest he represents aren’t interested in whether you think that their claims or grievances are legitimate, they don’t care what you say do or think.  While you’re busy with “Well, actually…” they’re on to the next thing – Globalists or New World Order, or they just repeat the lie you’ve just refuted as if you didn’t.

But worst of all, if you treat them as if they have actual real grievances that are worth you (a normal person living in the real world) paying attention to, then “Flooding the zone with shit” has worked. They need you to pay attention, they can’t do what they do without you paying attention to them.

Shrugging his shoulders and saying ‘sorry we don’t have enough police’ is not an option for Starmer, I would have thought that was obvious?

Ah, I hadn’t realised that’s what he has said. Anyway let’s see if there’s anything from this morning’s Cobra meeting.

Ignoring them won’t make them go away nickc. It just won’t. The cat is out of the bag I’m afraid. You ignore them & you’ll only reinforce their belief that they are being lied to by whatever group of choice is the flavour of the day.

“the majority of our population can see the fracturing of our communities as a result of mass, uncontrolled immigration Tory policy and my own racist, nationalist BS”

The same old same old “no, no, don’t look over here – look over there, there’s your problem..”. People still falling for it. Don’t know what’s worse, the Farages of the world or the fools who can’t think who become their puppets.

Typical Farage move bringing BLM into this. What a POS.

Is it such a vote loser for a politician to come out and say it’s not uncontrolled immigration, it’s actually controlled via work and study visas? Is it election suicide to say we need these people to fill jobs that we don’t have enough skilled workers for? Why doesn’t someone point out the obvious that we stopped being allowed to let European people in for work with no issues, so we have to go further afield to bring people in?

Ignoring them won’t make them go away

Farage and the folks like him don’t care whether you and I ignore him or argue with him. If you’re not the audience, you can either be safely ignored, or used by him. those are the choices he’ll make for you.

Again, I agree that Farage is dangerous, but he;  like Carlson, Trump, Bannon, Robinson, Alex Jones, Nick Fuentes even David Icke if you’re sufficiently down the rabbit hole don’t live in the reality you and I do, and if you start to argue with them, you’ve just moved into theirs.

Ah, I hadn’t realised that’s what he has said

Obviously it’s not what he’s said, but some of the recent posts on this thread seem to be suggesting that’s the case. Yes we all know the tories cut the number of police, but that’s not an excuse for them failing to protect people from far right mobs.

But worst of all, if you treat them as if they have actual real grievances that are worth you (a normal person living in the real world) paying attention to, then “Flooding the zone with shit” has worked. They need you to pay attention, they can’t do what they do without you paying attention to them.

100% this. Anyone with half a brain can see through it and no-one’s going to convince otherwise the morons who don’t. They’re a minority and always will be. We shouldn’t feed it all. What would I gain by arguing for the ‘my’ side on Twitter? Nothing, I just waste my time with their BS. It’s probably like those oddballs who live online in 4chan or gaming communities that turn into weird RW cults, the only people who should be paying any attention to them are the FBI.

The trouble is there does need to be a sensible debate about what is the right level of immigration into the Uk and who qualifies. There should also be a stronger deterrent to those who arrive illegally. The problem is that with the extremes of both sides just rioting, both sides did in mu home city over the weekend, then no debate will happen

When you’ve got priti patel coming out to criticise farage’s comparison to BLM protests, you know he’s really in another league.

Guardian article

The trouble is there does need to be a sensible debate about what is the right level of immigration into the Uk

But we just had a sensible debate and a general election to decide this and loads of other issues.

How does one get invited to the serious debate – just keep doing dog whistles or is there more to it?

Blimey this thread is depressing with recurring defeatism running through it. Suddenly the actions of a small handful of thugs who have been waiting a long time for an excuse to engage in mindless racist violence becomes somehow representative of the nation as a whole.

And just like Nigel Farage says “don’t say I didn’t warn you” they too say “don’t say I didn’t warn you”, apparently it’s all a reflection of just how racist the UK has become. Different sides using the same appalling events for their own agendas.

And to top it all the defeatists claim, completely falsely, that there is no point in challenging Farage because it won’t change anything.

The 8 minute clip of Darren from Reading on this thread the other day really cheered me up and gave me hope, the stuff being posted now is just depressing soul destroying defeatism.

Obviously it’s not what he’s said, but some of the recent posts on this thread seem to be suggesting that’s the case. Yes we all know the tories cut the number of police, but that’s not an excuse for them failing to protect people from far right mobs.

Ah so it’s police you’re having a pop at not Starmer? Sorry, I misunderstood you.

We had a sensible debate nationally, with a result at the polls last month; a section of society – whipped up by certain characters – refuses to accept the path the country is now on. They lost, so they’ve got to get over it, right?
Can’t remember many riots and acts of thuggery in 2016 as a result of that collective decision. If knuckle-draggers don’t get what they want, they’ll kick & scream for it.

Apparently wheelie bin woman told the court she only got involved when the pub shut? ?

For clarity, both Starmer and Yvette Cooper have said that the police DO HAVE SUFFICIENT RESOURCES

Interesting that there are large metropolitan areas with loads of spare police officers doing nothing @dazh

Can you inagine being a divisional commander in places that haven’t yet been mentioned, Cardiff, or Bradford, or Leicester, Oldham or Birmingham and thinking it would be a good idea to send all your officers to Stoke, Rotherham or Tamworth ? What happens to your division where you no longer have resources to protect the Islamic Institute, or the Mosque, and the locals start to feel really vulnerable? There’s every danger that you’ll find lads like you saw in Bolton mobilising and taking the fight out to them.  That this hasn’t happened (yet) just shows the value of meaningful community engagement

policing isn’t just about hitting folk over the head with a stick.

This raises another point I’ve been pondering.  So far we’ve seen smaller towns and cities with a visible minority of Muslims and migrants. In the grand scheme of things they’ve been pretty soft targets.  There have been no such attacks or “protests” in cities with a higher percentage of settled migrants.  Bolton is the only place where we saw Asian males counter-protesting.  I can’t imagine the carnage if the same were to happen in Manningham, or Dewsbury, or Leicester, or Ward End, or Small Heath

And to top it all the defeatist claim, completely falsely, that there is no point in challenging Farage because it won’t change anything.

It’s not defeatism, it’s caution about giving someone like Farage an uninterrupted platform at a crucial point.

As this thread shows, the ‘Rivers of Blood’ speech remains a powerful rallying call for the far-right, 70-odd years later. No-one remembers the consequences for Powell in terms of his sacking, or any of the doubtless fine speeches and editorials made in response.

The NF was defeated in the 1970s by a mass movement of social action by young, motivated antifascists and antiracists. Sadly this duty will probably fall to our younger generation again.

The groundswell of public support for Powell was immense following his speech – and it took significant political bravery to ram through the Race Relations Bill in the aftermath, bravery which would most likely not materialise these days.

The bright note when you compare the two is that public support for the racists appears to be much lower these days – still much higher than we’d like – but we are in a better place.

But, it is clear that Farage sees himself as a Powell-like figure, and is seeking the opportunity to deliver his own remix of the Rivers of Blood speech if Parliament is recalled. If he is allowed to do this, no-one will remember him being taken down eloquently by other politicians. They’ll just remember what he said – and it will be used repeatedly to harm race relations further.

Apparently wheelie bin woman told the court she only got involved when the pub shut? ?

In her very small world I imagine she probably views this a mitigation.

“But ah were pissed, like”…

Looking at what has been unearthed about her, this isn’t her first violence/assault rodeo.

For clarity, both Starmer and Yvette Cooper have said that the police DO HAVE SUFFICIENT RESOURCES

Didn’t look like it in Rotheram and Middlesbrough. Or are they acceptable ‘losses’ to protect more important places?

If you’ve been to either of those places, you’ll know the answer.

If you’ve been to either of those places, you’ll know the answer.

Wow!

For clarity, both Starmer and Yvette Cooper have said that the police DO HAVE SUFFICIENT RESOURCES

AIUI, the police (not sure if that is operational commanders or PCCs) were asked if they needed help and they said they had the resources needed. I don’t think they are saying this without input.

If you’ve been to either of those places, you’ll know the answer.

Wow!

I think (hope) that the poster means that those places have already been deemed acceptable losses or not important by successive governments, as can probably be seen by the state of their public services, healthcare, high street etc

Didn’t look like it in Rotheram and Middlesbrough. Or are they acceptable ‘losses’ to protect more important places?

I covered this in a post earlier, but to make it absolutely clear, if the officers have not yet been told to rush in and arrest the people smashing the window then they will stay put. In a volatile situation, officers acting impulsively or individually are a far greater risk than someone entering a hotel.

Someone somewhere will have a reason why those officers didn’t rush in.  You and I don’t.

As for some places being more “important than others” we need to stand back another step and think the following. Yes, it’s absolutely awful that the Holiday Inn and its occupants were targeted, and there is no place on our streets for thuggery……… but this is potentially only the build-up to what could be far more impactful on all of our lives. The Far Right have stated they want a full-on Race War.  So far there has been some very considered statements made by Islamic leaders and community representatives. The very, very real danger lies in towns and cities with a much larger muslim population. I tried to allude to it above, but there is a very real potential that the fear and feeling of vulnerability will lead actors within those communities to take matters into their own hands. I can absolutely guarantee that the male muslim population of Leicester, Birmingham, Bradford, Dewsbury, Oldham, Luton and others will already be considering whether they too need to mobilise. This of course is what the likes of Farage, Robinson et al want.  So far they’ve got the “normal people” out of Wetherspoons, and most of those will go home if the real trouble starts, but the hard-core EDL, Britain First and others from the footy firms are just waiting for the real thing to start.

The groundswell of public support for Powell was immense following his speech – and it took significant political bravery to ram through the Race Relations Bill in the aftermath, bravery which would most likely not materialise these days.

The Race Relations Act was actually 3 years before Enoch Powell’s Rivers of Blood speech.

But, it is clear that Farage sees himself as a Powell-like figure, and is seeking the opportunity to deliver his own remix of the Rivers of Blood speech if Parliament is recalled.

The Rivers of Blood speech wasn’t made in Parliament and it had the complete and total opposite effect of what Enoch Powell had hoped for. Enoch Powell had been an extremely senior politician with huge ambitions, he had wanted to be the last Viceroy of India, and certainly UK Prime Minister.

By 1968 he saw his political career in decline, his Rivers of Blood speech was a desperate attempt to revive it. As far as I am aware Enoch Powell had no previous record of high profile racist comments, in fact I believe that he was considered a rather compassionate Tory, which is one of the reasons that the speech caused such a stir.

But for whatever reasons Enoch Powell decided that a crass appeal to bigotry and idiotic racism would revive his flagging political career. It had the complete opposite effect and basically killed it off. He was instantly sacked from the Shadow Cabinet and from then on his political career went into a death spin as he became evermore irrelevant. He spent his final political days a bitter old man in the company of his fellow Protestant bigots in the Ulster unionists.

More race relations legislation followed Enoch Powell’s political decline.

If Farage wants to follow his footsteps I would welcome it.

Clearly dazh has more knowledge of the intelligence being gathered by the Police than we do. And as it stands, yes we have had enough resources. They might not have done what he wants them to have done, but until he shares his qualifications in public disorder control, I’m not seeing reason to suggest that those who do know have got it wrong.

I agree with Ernie – again, dammit – that we’ve got very negative about this. While this is the worst trouble we’ve seen in the UK for 10 years, it’s relatively small and relatively contained. Have a look at what Bangladesh is going through right now.

But I disagree with nickc about not engaging with these idiots. We have to. We have to engage, and challenge, and put out the alternative viewpoints and options and try and take ack control of the narrative. Because if we let it go unchallenged,  it will spread. And grow. For evil to prosper, all it takes is for good people to do nothing.