anti anti-cycling petition petition

The sensible solution is to provide a safe and effective alternative.

That’s fine.

But we’re talking TTs here. Is the state really responsible for providing race tracks?

But we’re talking TTs here.

The original petition was titled

“Stop cyclists using the counties dual carriageways”

But we’re talking TTs here. Is the state really responsible for providing race tracks?

No, you said that banning cycling, not TTs specifically, was a “sensible solution”:

You can tell from this thread many serious cyclists think riding on dual carriageways is not something they would do. I would imagine pretty much all non-cyslists think it’s a dumb thing to do. So the *sensible solution* to “manage that situation better” is to ban bikes from dual carriageways.

Is the state really responsible for providing race tracks

They built the dual carriageway didn’t they :wink:

But it’s not that there’s a Dutch style, wide, smooth, safe, direct route and the TTers are ignoring it because they don’t want to be held up by kids. There is zero provision, for any type of cyclist, on most roads and virtually all dual carriageways. It’s not about TTing, it’s about only thinking about and building for people in cars.

No, you said that banning cycling, not TTs specifically, was a sensible solution.

Actually I said be careful what you ask for as that would be seen as a sensible solution. Like most cyclists I don’t want to see any ban.

With lovely cycle lanes TTists would still use dual carriageways as the cycle lanes would be full of normal people pottering along at low speeds.

The old main road that the A41 bypasses for most of its length seems like a more sensible option than insisting on the right to cycle on the nsl dual carriageway.

Edit: cross-posted

Actually I said be careful what you ask for as that would be seen as a sensible solution. Like most cyclists I don’t want to see any ban.

Oh, I see. Sorry, somehow missed the subsequent paragraph. I don’t think the randomly changing typography on here helps make things easy to follow :$

There’s a difference between cyclists using DCs for access and 60+ riders set off at 30s intervals effectively closing one lane of the road.

Yes, you’d think with the warning signs, marshalls and presence of lots of cyclists the TT riders should be much safer than a non-racing cyclist who’s unlucky enough to need to use the DC just because there’s no alternative.

If cyclists are banned on dual carriageways then the government is closing a right of way, does this mean they would be obliged to build pedestrians, cyclists and horse riders their own road that ran in parallel?

Sorry but so long as there are viable alternatives available or provided I actually think cyclists should be banned from nsl dual carriageways too

I’d actually be happy to be banned from using an NSL dual carriageway if there was a viable alternative provided but I’m not aware of *ANY* parallel infra the UK that’s good enough. Segregated, direct, well maintained so smooth and fast. Priority over side roads and entrances etc etc.
https://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2016/02/22/cycling-along-a-new-highways-agency-scheme/

is what’s just been put in alongside just 2.5miles of the A23 as part of a hugely expensive scheme and it’s still crap.

I’m a time triallist and race on dual carriageways. Not all dual carriageways are equal. Some are fine and there are others that I wouldn’t choose to race on again (Etwall).

I actually prefer spocos to drag strips and wouldn’t mind if racing moved away from DCs (that said the only race I’ve done where there has been an accident was on a single carriageway course). But while the DCs are there some of our club championships involve riding on them, as do any club record attempts which you’re not going to get close to on a sporting course. So I do race on them more than I’d like.

Actually, ban racing on DCs tomorrow, as I currently hold the 10 and 25 records ;)

I usually feel safer in a race because of the other riders and signs. I’m unlikely to be the first cyclist a driver sees. And it will have been risk assessed unlike my training routes. Scariest race I’ve done was as last rider off on V718 with no one behind me (plus I’d forgotten to pick up my rear light that day 8O). I should add that I was only last because the rider behind me DNSed, not through a good seeding!

For non-racing I try to avoid dual carriageways out of town although there are some in built up areas which I will happily use. But as above sometimes there is no alternative provision so there’s no choice.

I think that even if there was effective alternative infra, so effeactive that norms would actually use it, the TTers would still use the dual carriageway because they’d soon get sick of families and kids and dogs and RC cars and the like. I don’t think there is an answer that would please everyone, (some) drivers have a bad attitude, roads are crap, the country is getting cosy, cyclists are an easy target.

Can’t they just do the TTs on Zwift :wink:

With lovely cycle lanes TTists would still use dual carriageways as the cycle lanes would be full of normal people pottering along at low speeds.

They would use the road regardless, see it all the time. We have a lovely cycle track that barely gets used because the road warriors are more concerned about exercising their rights. The A77 is another classic example (got upgraded to M77 so the old 4 lane carriageway became 2 lane with a decent sized cycle track). Answers above too.

We have a lovely cycle track that barely gets used

Got a Google Maps/Streetview link?

A77 – thought i’d have a quick look

https://goo.gl/maps/a2gikXDqXXJ2

Shows a road cyclist using it in both directions (if you turn around). Still too narrow – I’d guess 2m https://goo.gl/maps/XuwfTVBeBC42

Not entirely clear priorities at side roads and the kerb protection shouldn’t be that wide open. https://goo.gl/maps/RBSEqFxUu8Q2. Why not coloured tarmac right across?

I wonder how they’ve handled roundabout and big junctions? Oh no surprise – just give up.
https://goo.gl/maps/YiTfxLHieMT2

Quite a few cyclists shown as you pan along, all using the off road lane.

Can’t help myself.

So it’s marked as shared use. That makes sense – Dutch do it – few people walk alongside a cross country A road so build it for cycling and allow walking. But they haven’t. They’ve really built a footpath and allowed cycling on it.

At the recycling centre – massive splays, cycle track gives way to traffic accessing site.
https://goo.gl/maps/EfccyYaWaxk

They’ve just not bothered with the junctions – you have to stop, cross the road at 90 degrees, restart.

https://goo.gl/maps/XeTcY2tLrPE2

and then when you’ve crossed the bridge, cross again and then use the narrow painted gutter lane
https://goo.gl/maps/6WqXZ73W1FG2

I’m sure I’d use it – I bet the A77 is really unpleasant – but while it’s better than most UK infra it’s not a ‘lovely track’ and since it fizzles out to on road before it gets anywhere the only people using it are going to have to be happy riding on the A77 anyway.

The responsible authorities are Bucks and Herts County Councils.

Quite right, the A41 Aston Clinton bypass was indeed detrunked, my mistake.

Someone has to give way, to expect otherwise is just deluded, you’re not going to get grade seperated junctions out in the sticks.

Maybe my definition of lovely is lacking (not the track I was referring to anyway) but I’d certainly count something with a vastly superior surface to the road as lovely. Riding with 28’s it’s still white finger waiting to happen…

You can tell from this thread many serious cyclists think riding on dual carriageways is not something they would do. I would imagine pretty much all non-cyslists think it’s a dumb thing to do. So the *sensible solution* to “manage that situation better” is to ban bikes from dual carriageways.

If you do that I can’t cycle to work any more. OK I’ll close my business and put 40 people out of a job. Happy now?
TT-ing isn’t something I intend to ever do again, but thinking carefully – riding along a dead straight good visibility road is almost certainly statistically lower risk than racing on smaller back roads.
I’ve marshalled and was part of an organising committees of a UCI ranked race for about a decade (in the UK), but now just marshal our club’s Sporting TT.
Attitudes of drivers to any kind of hold-up are now worryingly disturbing, with a seemingly more or less complete disinterest to the effects of their driving on others.

Someone has to give way, to expect otherwise is just deluded, you’re not going to get grade seperated junctions out in the sticks.

It depends whether you’re serious about the bike as a means of transport. There’s no excuse for the track not having priority over side roads and the like.

If we did car junctions like these cycle junctions. Looks silly doesn't it?@camcycle @MiltonRoadRA @AlternativeDfT @MiltonRoadRA @SmarterCam pic.twitter.com/CRciaqvIN5

— Richard (@Ri15888634) July 23, 2017

Even for grade separaton at roundabouts and major junctions the cost is incremental cost is negligible relative to the amount the road costs.

If we did car junctions like these cycle junctions. Looks silly doesn't it?@camcycle @MiltonRoadRA @AlternativeDfT @MiltonRoadRA @SmarterCam pic.twitter.com/CRciaqvIN5

— Richard (@Ri15888634) July 23, 2017

I’m not signing any petition for or against cycling, but this I agree with..

andeh – Member
I always thought that time trialers were bonkers riding down dual carriageways. Sure, they can, but why the hell would you want to?

bails – Member
But it’s not that there’s a Dutch style, wide, smooth, safe, direct route and the TTers are ignoring it because they don’t want to be held up by kids..

I think you’ll find ( according to my Dutch Mates) that it’s illegal to hold races on Dutch Cycle Paths.

Someone has to give way, to expect otherwise is just deluded, you’re not going to get grade seperated junctions out in the sticks.

Round my bit of sticks they spent the best part of half a billion quid to grade-separate a mile or so of road from some interesting plants.

Round my bit of sticks they spent the best part of half a billion quid to grade-separate a mile or so of road from some interesting plants

Shouldn’t be there in the first place. Plants don’t even pay road tax!

I would’ve thought that several cyclists at 30s intervals would give ample opportunity for any motorist to see them and act appropriately. What do they do if there’s a convoy of trucks at 50? If someone breaks down? If a (possibly big) animal jumps into the road?

Even on a motorway you should be able to avoid anything in the carriageway with just a tiny bit of care – and believe me, I like to drive like a complete tit sometimes, but wouldn’t put myself in a position not to be able to avoid something like this. Why not ban cars from the dual carriageways? It’d encourage safer and more environmentally friendly travel, and the TTers could use the outside lane whilst the bimblers used the inside?

Why not ban cars from the dual carriageways? It’d encourage safer and more environmentally friendly travel, and the TTers could use the outside lane whilst the bimblers used the inside?

Because the draft of the cars gives a quicker time :-)

Another classic example of somewhere I’d choose to ride on the road rather than the cycle track (based on the links simon gave). Not because I want to piss off drivers, but because infrastructure like that is horrible and inconvenient, and at least some of the links simon gave are examples of stuff which is more dangerous than riding on the road.

Give me a proper Dutch style bike path I’ll use it, until then you can whistle for it.

Not that I’d choose to ride on some of the roads mentioned, but I have TTed on DCs several times and not felt at all in danger – but then the most recent (still not that recent!) were early start Sunday morning TTs with not much traffic on the roads, so not quite what most people here are probably imagining. Sure you might get mown down by a dangerous driver, but I can’t see why that is any more likely than on a single carriageway NSL road where cars are only going ~10mph slower – if anything, given easy overtaking by moving to the outside lane and good sightlines most of the time it ought to be safer. The local clubs did used to run evening TTs on one of the local DCs, but that stopped maybe 20 years ago because traffic got too much.

Where do people stand on dual carriageways with a painted cycle lane in the gutter? Is that legal, under the plans to ban DC use?

I tend to avoid even standing on the painted cycle lane.

Inevitable dadjoke is inevitable.

Where do people stand on dual carriageways with a painted cycle lane in the gutter? Is that legal, under the plans to ban DC use?

There are no plans to ban DC use.

The law is an ass on this. Every time someone gets found cycling on the hard shoulder of a motorway theres a big press/web/police hoo-ha. If you break down on the hard shoulder you’re told to leave your car and sit on the other side of the crash barriers because it’s so dangerous yet we have DC A roads with narrow painted lanes alongside or roads like the A3 and A12 where there are laughable little bits of infra that appear at junctions with you being expected to be in-lane the rest of the time.

Narrow country A-roads with vehicles travelling at over 60mph are what scare me most on a bike yet it’s hard to go far in the UK countryside without having to deal with one. Many of them don’t even have pavements.

Remove the danger not the victims. Build safe infra and make bikes a viable form of transport.

But it’s so, so much easier to remove the victims, because they’re an out group, and we couldn’t possibly interfere with the right of people to drive.