America’s Cup 37

Most telling thing for me was race 4 where Ineos had a great start and forced ETNZ into 2 tacks in quick succession. Should have given Ineos a good lead and control of the beat but Kiwis were even/first to the windward gate.

read (from Ineos team I think) that those 2 tacks only lost ETNZ 20m whereas Ineos would have lost 100m in the same scenario. ETNZ seems to be able to get back up to speed quicker or glide through head to wind better.
Hoping Ineos can pull a few back to make it a better competition.

Great Mozzy Saul’s video on the tacks

Just like you i couldn’t believe how little ground those 2 tacks cost NZ

The most interesting thing he says is that Ineos is faster up wind and down windin a straight line at full speed. But they hardly spend any time going at full speed

It sort of hints at the ai NZ talked about in the last cup where they let a computer run 1000s of visual regattas to see what sort of boat would win

Interesting how the team that gets to decide the design rules of the boat have an advantage!

[angry face emoji]

Interesting how the team that gets to decide the design rules of the boat have an advantage!

To be fair, unless there’s a well hidden loophole they’re exploiting, then it’s the same rules for everyone.

It was more of an issue in previous campaigns where they would deliberately write rules to disadvantage teams they didn’t want to face (budget caps to keep high spenders away, high entry fees that kept small teams away,  different numbers of prototypes allowed for challenger / defender, etc). And RYS/Ineos were the challenger of record, so were involved in the negotiations on the rules, location, etc.  I didn’t keep up with the politics this time round but for AC36 ETNZ designed the mechanicals of the foils, while Prada as challenger did the foils themselves?

It’s not the pre J-class era when the defender could build a lightweight speed machine while the challenger had to sail to the race in an more sturdy offshore yacht. Or the IACC/12M eras when the winner was whoever won the preceding court case over who’s boat bent fewer rules.

Haven’t the first four races been in relatively light winds? Maybe Ineos would be better in a blow.

What happened there? Just started the live stream and NZ are doing 2kt at the start line

Fell off the foils, takes a bit of time to get going again.

Did they have a technical issue or just human error?

Going alright now so I’m guessing a mistake.

guess they’ll be happy that they are probably facing a mere drubbing, rather than the total wipeout!

I think that’s the first obvious mistake from NZ.

interesting that the UK still excelling at……the cycling – avg ~380W vs ~280 for the kiwis

Wow…that was close!

NZ faster and tactically better. Game over. 7-0. F1 analogy is good.

Well this aged like a fine cheap New Zealand wine. plonk 

I might be back in a few days to eat my words, but I’d remind people of the last time Ainsley won the Americas Cup ……

Writing off today as a couple of small but heavily punished NZ mistakes misses the point, match racing is a bit like nougats and crosses, winning is very difficult but there’s lots of ways to make sure your opponent doesn’t win.  NZ need to force GB into a tacking battle, GB need to force NZ into a drag race.

And remember this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-Fod7rvSHQ

Close racing. I was edge of my seat for the last couple of legs.

It’s interesting how many armchair assumptions can be sunk depending on the conditions, developments/learning and boat set up.

Britannia were meant to be better in higher winds, but lost to Luna Rosa in those conditions.

Britannia was observed to struggle for a high mode in early races, but squeezed LR.

NZ were supposed to be stronger in light winds, but haven’t run away on any of the races in the final, which have all been light wind.

Woooo….. well done INEOS – back in it and no longer the whitewash that I feared!

@thisisnotaspoon – glad we made a better effort of it today. I’m just a cynical old GBR fireball sailor at heart and know how much fight Ben has in him. Would dearly love ineos to win so very happy to eat my words on that one.

I went down a rabbit hole on the mid-race course changes and wondered how they moved the buoys:

The cheapest ones go for 5k per mark, but they are quite shitty, they have a single propeller and not very powerful. In 25% of cases, they will make a mess

The first decent ones go for 8k/pop, they have 4 propellers and are more powerful and they have inertial guidance for when GPS fails/they lose contact. They might make a mess in 5% of cases, but usually in really bad weather that is also covered.

The AC ones are probably in the 25k/ mark. Huge numbers for sailing clubs, chump change for the AC.

Interesting how the team that gets to decide the design rules of the boat have an advantage!

Ineos agreed them

Last cup got close to breaking the rules and maybe did. This year they just look to be really good at sailing

The marks are pretty cool.

I guess at the same time they update the competitors race software to give the new laylines.

 match racing is a bit like nougats and crosses

Bit of a nutty analogy if you ask me.

@ampthill

Last cup got close to breaking the rules and maybe did.

Could you expand on that please?

According to mozzy’s analysis last night, Ineos lose about 25m per tack more than NZ. If they’re doing say 16 tacks a race that’s about 400m per race lost to tacking.

It also means that all other things being equal, Ineos are going to lose any tacking battles unless they get a close cover and give NZ dirty air almost immediately the tracking battle starts.

If I were ineos, I’d be figuring those tacks out ASAP.

It also means that all other things being equal, Ineos are going to lose any tacking battles unless they get a close cover and give NZ dirty air almost immediately the tracking battle starts.

But they won the second race yesterday and only cover-tacked twice.

We are in agreement twodogs. Ineos did use a couple of close cover tacks and later on in the race tacked a few times to stay between nz and the mark but didn’t engage in any tacking battles. Ineos got the better start then sailed their own race and generally minimised tacks which kept the boat speed up and reduced their tacking losses. Top speed (actually VMG) upwind on ineos in those bumpy conditions is better than nz but ineos take longer to get up to speed post tack so ineos do better when in the lead to generally hit the boundaries and avoid tacking battles. This tactic can backfire if they get on the wrong end of a big shift or sail into less pressure but it generally pays them.

I think we defined “second best” today

ETNZ sailed beautifully today. The first upwind starboard tacks were crucial in both races

So it seems Ineos likes bumpy conditions (or rather, NZ doesn’t). Light winds forecast for tomorrow, but it doesn’t really matter, cos I don’t think GB is going to win 5 in a row!

Will be interesting to see if Ainsley carries on til 2027, and if Radcliffe wants to keep funding it.  (Assuming they continue the current 3 year cycle)

We won the first start, but they just sailed right past us. Once ahead they rarely make mistakes. They are arrogant in post race interviews though…….

They are arrogant in post race interviews though…….

They are not alone in this though….

They are arrogant in post race interviews though…….

Easiest way to fix that is to beat them on the water.

Ah well. 7-2 in the end

With total investment across the fleet being north of 1/3 billion GBP – everyone has a different value on money but I’m just not convinced its justified in terms of guaranteed spectacle.

Just caught up after a day on the water (far slower speeds). Enjoyed the racing more than I expected to overall. Kiwis seemed to be able to pick the shifts and gusts well overall and didn’t make many (any) errors.
Not long until the Vendee Globe starts to have some sailing  to follow. Some Brits to keep an eye on there. Also a Kiwi but his boat doesn’t have foils.

I think this cup has been great (despite the result), especially with the youths and women’s events included.

Going to miss having racing to watch, luckily the Sail GP series kicks off in Dubai on 23rd Nov with Giles racing against GBR (Dylan, Ben or Hannah on the helm..?)

The AC40 circuit is also planned for next year,  fleet racing is more fun. They have a breakdown of the costs on their site if anyone fancies entering a team – 700 to 900k Euros, but that doesn’t include the yacht or 4 world class sailors!

Disappointed we didn’t win.

I’m of the view that the cheaper youth and women’s was more interesting to watch, and SailGP kicks it into touch from a watching point of view. Sailing was never the biggest watching spectacle though, it’s a sport best taken part in.

The result went the right way. We lost to a slightly better boat and slightly better sailors. I think we should have had 1 or 2 more wins. There were a couple of shifts that put NZ ahead which i think were luck not judgement.

I’ve enjoyed the event, particularly the Mozzy Sails stuff. But it’s just a money pit. There is no way that’s it’s providing a return to the sponsors on coverage.

I think the big question is whether we will have a team next year

There is no way that’s it’s providing a return to the sponsors on coverage.

What? You mean you’re not sat there sipping your Liptons tea whilst the manservant fires up the Sopwith Camel?

It’s always been an expensive project for the obscenely rich to pour their cash into.

£100million to the Emirati, Larry or Sir Jim is probably proportionally no more than one of us buying a budget commuter from Halfords.

Sir Jim literally has more money than he knows what to do with – for him it’s small change and a chance to get himself written into the history books ie the ultimate ego trip.

It looks like ineos will continue to sponsor BAR/ineos for the next cup.

British confirmed as Challenger of Record for 38th America’s Cup: but what next for the Cup?