All frontline NHS to be double jabbed to keep a job

Drac – if its get vaccinated or lose your job and your right to work then thats coercion

Consent given under duress is not consent.

If experts disagree then they should be talking to each other in order to come to a consensus before taking their findings to the great unwashed. If they aren’t doing that then they aren’t experts,

So no expert should speak out if they believe that the consensus of other experts is flawed? We might all still be smoking 20 a day and Sally Clarke would still be in jail if nobody ever highlighted that not all experts agree on everything.

As a boss, if I demand that an employee either be vaccinated or loose their job, who would be responsible if that employee had a rare, but serious adverse reaction to their vaccination?

The government.

tricky one stampjumper

If you are the boss of a care home you can pass the buck to the government as its legally mandated by them. If not its on your head

And please note the point about consent. Its a real point and that would be consent under duress so no legal consent

who would be responsible if that employee had a rare, but serious adverse reaction to their vaccination?

My mum is a nurse with many decades of experience. She also has a rare condition (Ehlers-Danlos) which makes her very susceptible to an overactive immune response (it turns out, she’s allergic to the alcohol in hand sanitiser, which now means she essentially can’t go in any public buildings.) Given the known effects of both Covid and the vaccines on the immune system, it is not obvious what her best course of action should have been. She was deeply troubled, for the same reasons that @tjagain has expressed, that the only advice she could get was “just get vaccinated”, and said that it was impossible to get any information that would help her give informed consent. She had the vaccine, and had a terrible reaction. She’s only just back in work part-time, after 8 months off.

Yes, I am fully aware this is an outlier of outliers.

Also as @tjagain has said – if the argument that “there is very little known harm, and it’s at least a very little beneficial” (and not backed by any particular evidence) is enough to overturn centuries of medical ethics, then we are in a very bad place already.

The government.

You’ll get a pittance from the Vaccine Damage Payout system.

Edit: As we all know, you won’t get anything from the vaccine developers, as they were granted legal protection.

Why dont we have a vaccine referendum? on compulsory vaccination?

After all my quality of life and rights have been reduced/removed by a referendum…

stampjumper – if thats a serious position for you take proper legal advice

The government.

So technically the boss would be just following orders?

In the case of the NHS and of care homes then yes that would probably seem to be the case, but what about private companies currently outside this mandate? Pimlico plumbers for example where boss Charlie Mullins has publicly stated that “we will introduce a mandatory requirement for all staff to have received a Covid vaccine and will fire staff who refuse without a valid reason”. Who would be responsible in this situation?

And please note the point about consent. Its a real point and that would be consent under duress so no legal consent

So if the employee in question had worked for the NHS for most of their career and had no other specialist skills outside of their current role/training with which to provide for their family, their future or pay their mortgage/rent etc. then realistically they are not being given a genuine choice. Would this be considered consent under duress?

I hate to bring up the “T” word but

that would be consent under duress so no legal consent

But don’t you need to qualify that with an “in my opinion” rather than a straight factual statement to avoid coming over a little bit Trump?

I’m not saying you are not correct, but has there been any case law or precedent yet to ironclad clarify that not being able to continue with your present line of employment constitutes duress when it comes to vaccination? Or is it just your lay, but informed, opinion of the situation?

To spin it – if an employee doing a physical role had a chronic back problem that stopped them doing their job that could only be possibly resolved with surgery they could currently be quite legally dismissed on grounds of capability. Under your definition of duress if that person could only keep their job if they had that surgery that would constitute duress. And thousands of people annually end their employment like that. I’m not aware of lots of litigation off the back of it (if due process is followed).

Well I could say IMO but the quote I gave from the NHS website about consent confirms it, my training I have had made it clear

For consent to be valid, it must be voluntary and informed, and the person consenting must have the capacity to make the decision.

The meaning of these terms are:

voluntary – the decision to either consent or not to consent to treatment must be made by the person, and must not be influenced by pressure from medical staff, friends or family
informed – the person must be given all of the information about what the treatment involves, including the benefits and risks, whether there are reasonable alternative treatments, and what will happen if treatment does not go ahead
capacity – the person must be capable of giving consent, which means they understand the information given to them and can use it to make an informed decision

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/

Would this be considered consent under duress?

yes – ultimatly for the courts to decide I guess

and must not be influenced by pressure from medical staff, friends or family

medical staff, friends or family……

‘current employers’ seems sadly missing from the list.

I think you need more than that quote to be so definitive. What do you think of my late edition example edit?

yes – ultimatly for the courts to decide I guess

So, you do need to start adding IMO then ;-)

stampjumper – if thats a serious position for you take proper legal advice

Thankfully it is not for me but it is for my brother and biking compadre who is an NHS Consultant Ophthalmic Surgeon. Hence quite close to my heart. He’s not sure what to do having worked for the NHS for 18 years. He feels like it’s a massive kick in the teeth for all those NHS staff who have gone above and beyond over then last 18 months to keep the NHS running under some very difficult circumstances.

I think his gut is telling him to resign and concentrate on private work, which ironically could still have him seeing NHS patients. He says that there are many other NHS staff who feel the same, both vaccinated and unvaccinated. Many have simply had enough of government meddling, of focusing everything around Covid at the expense of almost all other types of patient. The crisis in the NHS at the moment is no longer one of Covid. It is a crisis of all of those people who have had treatment delayed in the name of keeping hospitals quiet for Covid, and those who have been too scared to seek treatment or not seen their GP for routine stuff until it is too late meaning that the conditions they are now presenting with are often far more complex and difficult to treat. Yet with the Covid obsessive culture that still prevails, it is very difficult to speak out apparently.

I have had my vaccine but he is hesitant as his best man is now in a wheelchair after an adverse reaction. Therefore I respect his decision. For anyone saying he is selfish then I would ask you to speak to any of the people who’s sight he has saved over the last 18 years. He will be a loss to the NHS if he goes.

Meanwhile for those taking the decision to ‘just get vaccinated’ lightly, please listen to one of our own, Mr Kyle Warner. What a credit this young man is to us all.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CWCOcGlrFMT/

What do you think of my late edition example edit?

nonsense- not a paralell at all

and the quote from the NHS is quite clear its just a shortened form not listing every possible pressure point. would you like my lecture notes around consent?

Its very clear – consent must be given freely and without pressure otherwise its not valid

Bugger – sucked back in!

As we all know, you won’t get anything from the vaccine developers, as they were granted legal protection.

Like all vaccines.

So technically the boss would be just following orders?

No.

nonsense- not a paralell at all

Sorry, not following your logic. Can you explain your thinking. Both situations require a medical procedure to continue current employment. The dude with the dicky back would have a significantly bigger risk factor electing to have the surgery.

and the quote from the NHS is quite clear its just a shortened form not listing every possible pressure point. would you like my lecture notes around consen

😀 You do appreciate how Trump like that sounds! “Yes the evidence I present to you does not actually say what I tell you it says, but it’s ‘clearly’ meant to!” We might need to see your lecture notes, god help us! Or an ‘imo’ until there is case law to make it a bit more cut and dry 😉

I have had my vaccine but he is hesitant as his best man is now in a wheelchair after an adverse reaction.

Surely he can appreciate that there are many more people dead of COVID than there are harmed by the vaccine?

Like all vaccines.

No. Previously, legal protection was provided for those administering vaccines, and those manufacturing them. At the time that the Covid vaccine was released in the UK, one of the legal changes that was made included extending protection to those companies placing the vaccines on the market.

The UK government therefore proposes to clarify the legislation by putting the pharmaceutical company responsible for placing unlicensed products on the market on the same footing as manufacturers of unlicensed products – and the same footing as marketing authorisation holders of products which the licensing authority recommends are used otherwise than in accordance with their authorisation. This will help to give companies willing to co-operate in the sort of mass vaccination programme under consideration for COVID-19, or mass distribution of treatments in other situations, some assurance that they will not be exposed inappropriately to civil liability.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/distributing-vaccines-and-treatments-for-covid-19-and-flu/consultation-document-changes-to-human-medicine-regulations-to-support-the-rollout-of-covid-19-vaccines#civil-liability-and-immunity

I think his gut is telling him to resign and concentrate on private work, which ironically could still have him seeing NHS patients.

So would need to be vaccinated as he’s being paid by the NHS. He needs to speak to the GMC and seek some legal advice, proper legal advice.

and the quote from the NHS is quite clear its just a shortened form not listing every possible pressure point.

Is it? Because that’s not what it says. An expectation from your employer/government is different from Dave who drink in The Winchester saying you should have or there’s no more lads night out.

The UK government therefore proposes to clarify the legislation by putting the pharmaceutical company responsible for placing unlicensed products on the market on the same footing as manufacturers of unlicensed products

But they’re licensed?

Meanwhile for those taking the decision to ‘just get vaccinated’ lightly, please listen to one of our own, Mr Kyle Warner. What a credit this young man is to us all.

Another brand new poster with all this stuff, deja vu again.

One of our own – what a middle aged civil servant? Why is he a credit to me?

But they’re licensed?

Not at the time of their initial release, no. They were granted special provision to be released to the public under section 1 of the link I previously provided. More info here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulatory-approval-of-pfizer-biontech-vaccine-for-covid-19/conditions-of-authorisation-for-pfizerbiontech-covid-19-vaccine

In fact, I can’t find any reference to the vaccines being fully licenced since then.

To date, the COVID-19 Vaccine Pfizer/BioNTech has been supplied in the UK on a temporary basis under Regulation 174 of the Human Medicine Regulations 2012, but as this was always intended to be a temporary arrangement, supply of this vaccine will change to be in accordance with the conditional Marketing Authorisation (CMA).

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulatory-approval-of-pfizer-biontech-vaccine-for-covid-19

Surely he can appreciate that there are many more people dead of COVID than there are harmed by the vaccine?

You mean died within 28 days of a positive test for SARS-CoV-2?

It depends on age and underlying health really. As a fit man in his 40’s with no underlying health conditions he is statistically at incredibly low risk from Covid-19. He’s had it actually, as have I. A very few minor symptoms, that’s all. If he was in his 80’s, overweight and in poor general health then he’d be daft not to get the vaccine. But why should he have to justify his choice to anyone else? It is his body. His health. He’s already had Covid too, yet this counts for nothing apparently?

We also need to consider the rumours that news of vaccine adverse events are being heavily suppressed by the media, not taken seriously or simply labeled as coincidence without proper investigation. My brothers best man has had posts he’s made to FB about his vaccine injury removed by FB as mis-information. See also Kyle Warner link above for an example and also his post here.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CVoEk5sh82_/

I don’t know how true the above is and nor am I qualified to say, but just ask yourself when did the media ever show you any of the really huge protests currently happening in major cities around the world (and regularly happening for many months now) against vaccine passports? They don’t show you this do they. Have you ever wondered why not?

Regardless of who is right or wrong here, there are huge trust issues surrounding our government we need to resolve at the moment who I think we can all agree have been less than transparent.

Sorry, I hope this does not come across as all conspiracy theory. It is not meant in that context.

Meanwhile for those taking the decision to ‘just get vaccinated’ lightly, please listen to one of our own, Mr Kyle Warner. What a credit this young man is to us all.

Never heard of him. I don’t think he’s like me at all, for one he’s spouting about his individual experience like it definitive evidence, yet they is still not proper diagnoses of his issues.

Tell me Stampjumper why have you suddenly joined the forum to post on this thread?

Sorry, I hope this does not come across as all conspiracy theory.

Oh it does.

What do you actual think the 28 days mean?

What rumours and why do you think they’re true over actual data?

You don’t know how true it is, still linked to a guy who has been fact checked.

Last time I heard about the protests, well that would be Saturday, Sunday and Monday.

Never heard of him. I don’t think he’s like me at all

No he’s not a ****.

Well that escalated quickly.

No he’s not a ****.

Who was the last troll who got all shouty when he got called out? There’s so many of them they all blend into one.

Deleted.

I hadn’t realised the direction the thread had gone.

Also deleted, I should know better.

I doubt you’ll hear from Stampjumper again.

Ha, it’s gone they way they often do. Fully the way of the shit-flinging, lobotomised chimp.

Ha, it’s gone they way they often do. Fully the way of the shit-flinging, lobotomised chimp.

Yeah I guess he didn’t see that coming. Sounds like he needs to speak with his brother.

when did the media ever show you any of the really huge protests currently happening in major cities around the world (and regularly happening for many months now) against vaccine passports? They don’t show you this do they. Have you ever wondered why not?

And they still haven’t admitted that jet fuel cannot melt steel!

Yeah I guess he didn’t see that coming. Sounds like he needs to speak with his brother.

Screw you for stealing the joke I was going to make.

Why doesn’t STW maintain – and make available – a list of banned posters and their various new user names?
We need to know.
Stampjumper appears to be the latest example; are they really a brand new member? Freshly minted with so much to
say?