All frontline NHS to be double jabbed to keep a job

I have to say I now appreciate it’s a more nuanced problem that it first appears after reading tjagains arguments.

I’m still of the opinion that patient safety trumps those concerns, but there’s definitely wiggle room for how that’s achieved- for instance a kind of honourable discharge with the accompanying no loss of benefits if you feel you have to leave because you won’t get vaccinated.

However, the fertile men argument is bollocks – you don’t get women pregnant by breathing the same air as them or leaving a trace on a surface.

cougar – sorry – should have made that clear “competence” in the legal sense

But your belligerence is startling

apologies for that. Its hard not to react to people not understanding the issues and being belligerent to me because they do not understand the issues

I will drop it now. I think the BMJ quotes show the objections well.

God, there’s some bollocks being spouted on here. If you work in healthcare wash your hands, put a mask on and get jabbed. It’s really not much to ask.

Before I’m accused of double standards, I’d like it to be compulsory in all work places. By all means be an anti vax moron, but do it somewhere where you’re not endangering me and my family.

your beef is about a contractual change?

No – its about undermining a major part of medical ethics and a reversal of centuries of medical ethical development

tjagain
Full Member

Having studied this, perhaps you could come up with a slightly less batshit example?

Read the big long quote from the BMJ

Yeah….. read it….. not a great article to be honest, and I don’t see any analogies in there

I have to say I now appreciate it’s a more nuanced problem that it first appears after reading tjagains arguments.

Thank you

Once the issues are understood then you can make informed comments either side of the debate. without that understanding of the ethical considerations then you cannot.

Do I understand….. can I comment?

The issue you have with this approach, is that the NHS is already understaffed.

If we take your approach and say 5%* of the NHS workforce is forced to leave, then what happens the next time you need treatment?

Yet it didn’t seem to be much of a concern when we told at least twice that number to piss off for the crime of being European. “I went to A&E and contracted Romanian!” said no-one ever.

@Andy_Sweet – but if you’re vaccinated how are the unvaccinated a threat to you and your family exactly?

I will drop it now.

You’ve said that about six times now and you’re still replying to people. (-:

No – its about undermining a major part of medical ethics and a reversal of centuries of medical ethical development

Aha. “We’ve always done it this way.” Always a good reason to keep doing things.

False logic. You can still pass on COVID if you’re jabbed so not sure what the point of the policy is as it is not actually providing any additional protection to anyone other than those who choose not to be jabbed

Not true.

The viral load you receive from someone who is jabbed is the same as from someone who isn’t jabbed.

Also not true.

But ultimately the only person they [anti-vaxxers] are risking or hurting are themselves.

Imagine thinking you can participate in a debate when your understanding is so poor.

Well done for demonstrating the point that one of the larger problems with the whole wider debate is that the internet has enable everyone to have their say, even if they’re talking complete nonsense.

Just picking my way through this thread.

Small point of order that wrankled…

@tjagain

all citizens have a duty to report a crime

No they don’t.

There is absolutely no compunction at all, legally or morally.

As for the rest, it’s no doubt complex and to see the benefits of one side of the argument isn’t ignoring the other. Not sure I ascribe to the ‘coercion’ points.

Ethics cut both ways, and sometimes the rights of the individual have to give way to the rights of society.

There’s no great ethical trump card (let alone a medical ethics one).

Not true.

Was true according to an actual expert on TV earlier today.

Also not true.

Was true according to an actual expert on TV earlier today.

magine thinking you can participate in a debate when your understanding is so poor.

Oh get over yourself man. I get my info from experts. I’m not making this shit up. There might be a problem of different experts saying different things and that is a problem as we don’t know who to believe but the fact is there are experts that are saying these things.

Maybe its the case, like in alot of science, that we don’t fully understand this and that there is different scientific opinion out there.

Anyway would love to understand why the infection rate is as high as it has been before vaccination when 70% of the population are double vaccinated. IF it was the case that vaccinations did reduce infection rates then why is the overall infection rate not significantly lower? Why is the data not impacted by the very high vaccination rate? Why is it that double vaccinated people are catching the virus from other double vaccinated people?

andrewreay

sorry – I thought we did have the duty to report a crime as a member of the public. I am fairly sure healthcare workers do under the codes of conduct but I stand corrected

Ok, I’ve read everything, I’ve thought about everything, I’ve enjoyed the argument, and I’ve ended up pretty much where I started:
Those working in contact with vulnerable people should have the jab. If they don’t want it they should look for new work or be temporarily put on duties where they do not come into contact with patients or those working with patients.

We’ve had this at my workplace. I work with adults with learning disabilities, but many have other issues as well – respiratory problems, Downs Syndrome, diabetes, old age, etc – that leave them especially vulnerable. Like any right-thinking person in this position I got double jabbed and boosted at the first opportunity, as did nearly everyone else. A few casual staff decided they didn’t want the jab and stopped taking shifts.
A friend I’ve known for years is a good guy, but a bit ‘they’re watching, you know?’. He refused the vaccine and left the place he’d worked for 10 years.
It’s a real shame, the service users loved him and he knew his job well. Initially I couldn’t understand why he couldn’t be put on outside non-contact work (we have a big site, and there’s always plenty to do) until this is over. I think the CEO – also a good guy – decided that he had to enforce this or others would ask for similar leniency. We’re also encouraging all of our service users to get vaccinated – we rightly cannot compel those who are competent to make the decision themselves – and if there were unvaccinated staff it would undermine the position.

I sympathise, I really do. I think it’s daft not to take up the vaccination, but it’s up to each person. However, I do not think it is wrong to state “For this role you need to be vaccinated”. Simple as that.

There might be a problem of different experts saying different things and that is a problem as we don’t know who to believe but the fact is there are experts that are saying these things.

If experts disagree then they should be talking to each other in order to come to a consensus before taking their findings to the great unwashed. If they aren’t doing that then they aren’t experts, they’re simply opinionated gobshites like me and TJ.

Joking aside, “expert” is an easy word to throw around but actual experts are few and far between.

the end justifies the means?

Very clearly it does sometimes, depending on what the end is and what the means are. Evaluating this is the key issue here.

I sympathise, I really do. I think it’s daft not to take up the vaccination, but it’s up to each person.

Surely it’s more than daft. It’s potentially dangerous and could result in someone’s death, couldn’t it?

To avoid more people leaving the NHS wouldn’t it be smarter to bring out vaccine passports to get into pubs, clubs, cinemas etc., and maybe also a 1p income tax levy on vaccine refusers to pay for the extra healthcare burden they are creating.

That way you’d likely get the bulk of the NHS staff who have dodged the vaccine to reconsider without risking more leaving, but also get the rest of the population not in the NHS jabbed.

If experts disagree then they should be talking to each other in order to come to a consensus before taking their findings to the great unwashed.

I pasted a large quote from experts. Pollok in particular is a well known expert in medical ethics. I have read a lot of her stuff. well worth reading.

the debate is going on and I agree there is one but its complex and nuanced not simplistic as some folk here would like to see and the government have pushed on without listening to the debate among experts

Is the concern that it all goes a bit Black Mirror?

If the next pandemic results in widespread kidney failure would everyone be happy if forced to donate a kidney “for the greater good”. Whilst I was happy to get a vaccine, I might draw my own line at that point. For others I guess they’ve drawn a line at a different level.

I do have some sympathy with people who might feel forced into this choice and pointing a finger and shouting that they’re morons might not be productive. For many, I would say that the choice to leave a career, not just a job, isn’t really a choice at all.

the end justifies the means?

In this instance, in my opinion, yes.

@mudmucher – would you be prepared to extend that levy for overweight people, smokers, excessive alcohol drinkers, people who participate in DIY, sports….. and mountain bikers who can end up in A&E from time to time too?

the government have pushed on without listening to the debate among experts

the government seem to be experts at that.

@kerley :D

@wobbliscott

Anyway would love to understand why the infection rate is as high as it has been before vaccination when 70% of the population are double vaccinated.

More people are mixing with more other people. Mask wearing is down markedly everywhere, though still higher in Scotland than in other parts

My SO has had three doses so far and employer still expects regular PCR tests. The vaccine doesn’t stop you getting ill or passing covid on. So to enforce vaccination and have the resulting fallout…

But why expect the government to find out why there is hesitency, particualarly when it appears to be linked to certain features such as income/education/location/etc.

I pasted a large quote from experts. Pollok in particular is a well known expert in medical ethics. I have read a lot of her stuff. well worth reading.

the debate is going on and I agree there is one but its complex and nuanced not simplistic

This being the case, is it not reckless and irresponsible for “experts” to be publicly disagreeing in sight of non-experts who are by definition far less equipped to evaluate a conclusion? This is how we got Wakefield’s MMR/autism horseshit. This is how we got brexit.

But why expect the government to find out why there is hesitency,

Why there is vaccine hesitancy is well documented. It’s because we have a nation of cretins.

This being the case, is it not reckless and irresponsible for “experts” to be publicly disagreeing in sight of non-experts who are by definition far less equipped to evaluate a conclusion?

this is how debates in the medical world are done. there is no other way.

I’m well aware of how science works. That wasn’t my point.

More people are mixing with more other people. Mask wearing is down markedly everywhere, though still higher in Scotland than in other parts

This of course makes complete sense, I’m just surprised. If the vaccinations are significantly effective in reducing infections and the infection rates have risen so high then given 70% of the population are double vaccinated, the majority of infections are amongst the double vaccinated. This certainly bears out in my personal experience of friends and work colleagues who are getting positive PCR tests left right and centre despite being double vaccinated, but the majority having no symptoms whatsoever. We’re just crucibles for the virus.

The main thing is that the majority of severe disease, hospitalisations and deaths are amongst the unvaccinated so that should be the biggest reason for people to get the vaccine.

For consent to be valid, it must be voluntary and informed, and the person consenting must have the capacity to make the decision.

The meaning of these terms are:

voluntary – the decision to either consent or not to consent to treatment must be made by the person, and must not be influenced by pressure from medical staff, friends or family
informed – the person must be given all of the information about what the treatment involves, including the benefits and risks, whether there are reasonable alternative treatments, and what will happen if treatment does not go ahead
capacity – the person must be capable of giving consent, which means they understand the information given to them and can use it to make an informed decision

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/

That’s talking about patients, not staff.

cougar – no thats talking about everyone – thats the principles of consent in medical worlds and when it comes to actually giving the vaccination to staff they become the patient as they are being given a treatment

GMC have a view on this and rather unsurprisingly they’re expected to get vaccinated as professional.

https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/regulation/gps-have-duty-to-be-vaccinated-against-covid-19-under-gmc-regulations/

Oh as have the Nursery and Midwifery council.

If the vaccinations are significantly effective in reducing infections and the infection rates have risen so high then given 70% of the population are double vaccinated,

Speaks for itself and you answered it in your last paragraph too. If you have such a high amount vaccinated, I think it’s over 80% in the most vulnerable. Then an infection stands to be likely in the vaccinated. As you go on to say the deaths in the unvaccinated are considerably higher.

There’s some good studies here by experts that haven’t appeared on the TV, TV expert always make me sceptical.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2274202-how-good-are-the-coronavirus-vaccines-at-blocking-transmission/

@mudmucher – would you be prepared to extend that levy for overweight people, smokers, excessive alcohol drinkers, people who participate in DIY, sports….. and mountain bikers who can end up in A&E from time to time too?

@lamp – we already have a levy for smokers and excessive alcohol consumers with billions of extra tax on fags and booze which more than covers the cost of their NHS treatment. Not sure where we are with the sugar tax, but I think we are going down the same road with overweight people too. Sports/MTBing have a net positive health benefit and save the NHS money despite the odd accident.

Any heathcare worker that does not get vaccinated is wrong ( without good medical reason)

However that does not justify the coercion which runs a coach and horses thru the principle of consentand medical ethics

You cannot consent to the vaccination legally under coercion.

@Superficial

False logic. You can still pass on COVID if you’re jabbed so not sure what the point of the policy is as it is not actually providing any additional protection to anyone other than those who choose not to be jabbed

Not true.

The viral load you receive from someone who is jabbed is the same as from someone who isn’t jabbed.

Also not true.

But ultimately the only person they [anti-vaxxers] are risking or hurting are themselves.

Imagine thinking you can participate in a debate when your understanding is so poor.

Well done for demonstrating the point that one of the larger problems with the whole wider debate is that the internet has enable everyone to have their say, even if they’re talking complete nonsense.

Are you sure that is not correct. This is a quote from STWs TiRed (a noted expert in the field) from the other thread (page 839)

Precisely this. The vaccine is doing relatively little for transmission. I noted this when delta first emerged in Israel. It spread at the same rate in a vaccinated population as alpha did in an unvaccinated.

You cannot consent to the vaccination legally under coercion.

You keep saying it’s coercion. For me it is very much a professional responsibility as healthcare worker, if you don’t want then you can’t expect to work in patient contact. So you work in none contact role or leave.

Paramedics has to all become mentors to continue as a registered professional as well as meet other clinical needs. All added in recent years, any who didn’t do this a time frame had to surrender their registration. I know you’re going to bleat on but its not a medication, however this is a sample of how requirements can change whilst employed.

Vaccination reduces transmission – link to New Scientist article that links to papers. ” Effectiveness of full vaccination of the index against transmission to unvaccinated household contacts was 63% (95%CI 46-75%). ”

If you’re not vaccinated without good cause (in a trial, recent infection, unable to be vaccinated for medical reason etc.), you shouldn’t be working with vulnerable people. It’s a “do no harm” thing.

and the government have pushed on without listening to the debate among experts

I would suggest this is bollox, they listened to the debate, the conservatives are remember a libertarian party, they have come down on the side of a mandate. Just because they didn’t side with your preferred experts it doesn’t mean they were not listened to.

Any heathcare worker that does not get vaccinated is wrong

So why don’t the professional bodies suspend the registration of those who don’t other than for medical reasons?