All frontline NHS to be double jabbed to keep a job

Then that’s not forcing them to take the vaccine, but to make a choice. Which is still pretty murky.

Its not much of a choice! Loose your job, your entitlement to benefits ( cos you were sacked) and thus be in huge financial difficulties as a result.

its certainly strong coercion and to me its forced because of the huge penalty for non compliance

A key thing with consent to medical treatment is it must be freely given. If you are being coerced under threat of dismissal its not freely given therefore consent is invalid

Have the government produced anything that states their case for making it mandatory? I agree with TJ on the practicalities/legalities. This can’t have gone unnoticed so I was wondering how it was justified in writing with some science backing it up.

If they follow through and dismiss people it will create a shortage amongst other issues. You wonder what models have been created to understand if this will give people cause to be vaccinated who aren’t already. I can’t see it to be honest, if you are a front line medic who’s deliberately decided not to take up the vaccine at this point it is going to take a lot to change that position.

I actually think the number of anti vaxers who would lose their jobs over this to be insignificant

I think its about creating a political narrative that ” the NHS staff are to blame for spread”

However, a quick bit of Googling suggests that this concern is probably not valid and, in fact, the opposite is probably true.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2101765
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2106757

What those papers show is a reduction in hospitalisations, etc, in addition to the primary effect of reducing symptoms.

Granted, I’m not sure the effect (that is, that getting vaccinated increases your chances of having an asymptomatic case of Covid and unknowingly passing it on) is very big, but then for the under 40ish age group, all of the various effects (side and otherwise) are quite small.

I would love everyone to be vaccinated in the NHS and social care.
The question to ask is will more harm be done by unvaccinated staff or from having not enough staff in the sector.
There are already tens of thousands of vacancies at every level and any loss of staff will make it even harder to deliver the care that we all want. A mandate is very blunt where a more open discussion with people that haven’t been vaccinated would be better.

There are already tens of thousands of vacancies at every level and any loss of staff will make it even harder to deliver the care that we all want

All the more reason to protect the staff from illness and death caused a result of having to work with unvaccinated colleagues.

I can see why you are taking this position TJ, from a both a theoretical and moral stand. I’m sure it could be argued until the cows come home – especially by a bunch of rank amateurs with no legal qualifications between us! :-)

But lets strip this right back. You said early on that, as a nurse, you had the vaccine ‘instantly’ as soon as it became available. I’m assuming from that you said that because, as someone caring for ill people having the vaccine was the right thing to do. The compassionate thing. The caring thing.

Given that, could you try and make a case to us for why we should care particularly about the treatment of those given the same situation you were in – indeed with a years worth of extra evidence that billions across the world are not dropping dead after their vaccines available to them – still refusing to do the compassionate, caring thing. Not those that can’t have the vaccine for medical reasons but those that just won’t. why would I want to give more than a gallic shrug if they had to move on and a find a new career? Is it just a ‘line in the sand’ moral issue for you or is there more to it?

Follow up question – to a former health care worker – in your opinion after a full career in nursing, is someone who works a frontline role and still refuses to be vaccinated fit for purpose? Not from a ‘are they a covid danger’ perspective, but from a do they possess the compassion and caring nature or the basic trust in modern medicine to be intimately involved in the care sector?

This approach has been used in Queensland (where Covid is still barely present). Our NHS equivalent has said you either get jabbed our apply for an exemption. Anyone that does not is asked to show due cause and moved to a non-clinical role where possible, or has to take leave until it expires upon which they will be suspended. Great idea IMO. It makes me sick to think of staff that won’t adhere to such a logical approach. In my district there are ~400 out of 8,500 employees currently not doing the right thing.

Who cares what contraryTJ does or health workers who will not get vaccinated, they’ll get moved to pencil pushing or managed out /retirement and somebody more suitable who understands the duty of care involved in the job will take his place.

Just a cog in a machine, if it no longer fits or the teeth don’t mesh then it’s time to replace the part.
It’s a business decision, sentiment doesn’t come in to it.

However if somebody cannot take the vaccine for health reasons then they deserve to be found other roles in the organisation.

Convert – its nothing to do with compassion or caring – I took the covid vaccine because I believed it the right thing to do. I still do and I think healthcare workers who refuse it are off their heads

However its to me ( and I studied medical law and ethics to a decent level) its a huge legal moral and ethical minefield indeed its just wrong under medical ethics to coerce peiople into vaccinations

to me this is an moral and ethical issue

Bodily autonomy is a cornerstone of medical ethics. Consent to treatment is very important

On your follow up – its nothing to do with compassion or caring. I loathe that way of describing my profession

Maybe they are incapable of following the medical argument. maybe they have other reasons. Who knows and its irrelevant to the issues around autonomy and consent.

basic principles of medicine that have been developed by our best minds over centuries are being ripped up here. Its really serious from that point of view

I am really frustrated how lay folk are just dismissing these key concerns around the ethics

more suitable who understands the duty of care involved in the job will take his place.

Ah well – this is the bit you do not get. a nurses duty of care includes respecting bodily autonomy and respecting the principles of consent. So to coerce vaccinations in this way actually goes against our duty of care. We actually have a duty to report any cases where these two things are not respected and can be prosecuted for not doing so

I am really frustrated how lay folk are just dismissing these key concerns around the ethics

I’m not dismissing them – I’m saying staff face a harsh choice, but they have a choice.

Other than those who have been offered a medical exemption, the only reason for not having the jab is because you believe internet hysteria over the expert opinion of health professionals around the world, or you are just being contrary to prove a point. Either of those reasons means I have little sympathy for that position, frankly, and I’d extend that opinion to other job roles, my own colleagues, and the wider population.

Strange nobodies brought up wearing masks and keeping your distance, all seemed to come in and not many objections. and worn in most care settings still.

That means you are dismissing the bodily autonomy and consent issues tho as they are inextricably linked to this

Less so if you would compulsory vaccinate everyone I guess

Edit – a key point around consent is that a persons decision does not have to appear rational to be competent ie valid

Doesn’t it say somewhere in the hipocratic oath that you must not intentionally cause harm to another, so by not having a vaccination which is proven to help stop the spread of a virus would you be breaking that oath?

2so by not having a vaccination which is proven to help stop the spread of a virus would you be breaking that oath?”
Excedpt it isn’t.
It is proven to help reduce the spread of Covid, by about 25%. Far less than the reduction in spread by wearing a mask. The main benefit from being vaccinated is to protect yourself – even though we have been told it protects others. Protecting yourself seems to be an unacceptable concept these days…
I’m happy to wear a mask but being told what to stick in one’s body? A very slippery slope!

IIRC its “first do no harm” not that anyone does that oath any more again IIRC

Which means before you do anything ensure it will not harm the person. vaccines have side effects so “do no harm” is far too simplistic when its all about balance of risks

there is a large body of medical and nursing ethics and standards to adhere to which include respecting bodily autonomy and always obtain fair consent which this coerced vaccination breaches clearly.

Doesn’t it say somewhere in the hipocratic oath that you must not intentionally cause harm to another, so by not having a vaccination which is proven to help stop the spread of a virus would you be breaking that oath?

Problem is it doesn’t stop spread, it reduces the risk of hospitalisation and severe disease in the recipient.

This announcement is entirely political posturing. Why for example is it going to come in to full effect in April 22 when we are expected a surge of cases through winter, hospitals are on their knees coping with peak winter rates already and why is the flu vaccine not included when it does reduce spread and has been a major killer for decades and could be this year? More to the point why was Boris Johnson seen this week without a mask in a hospital full of sick vulnerable people?
If Govt was interested in stopping spread then it should look at making masks mandatory in all crowded spaces and schools like in the rest of the sensible world. Hospital workers catch Covid from somewhere and very likely from their kids, on the bus or tube.
BTW I’m a triple vaccinated healthcare worker who has been responsible at a very senior level in a Trust for trying to manage this Govts ineptitude, dithering and lies eg “protective ring around care homes” and am fed up with more of this nonsense.

More to the point why was Boris Johnson seen this week without a mask in a hospital full of sick vulnerable people?

even more to the point why did the management let him?

even more to the point why did the management let him?

Exactly what I said when I saw the picture.

Anyone interested in the code of conduct for nurses here it is

https://www.nmc.org.uk/globalassets/sitedocuments/nmc-publications/nmc-code.pdf

it includes such as:
2.5 respect, support and document a person’s right to accept or
refuse care and treatment

20.2 act with honesty and integrity at all times, treating people
fairly and without discrimination, bullying or harassment

so to me any nurse involved in this coerced vaccination would fall foul of these two provisions

I’m a pro-vac and have argued in the streets with anti vac protesters.

This action is predicated on the assumption that the vaccine has a significant impact on the spreading of the virus and I’m not sure it does I’m sure TiRed would be able to comment on that.

The best way to protect the vulnerable is to ensure a comprehensive booster program, I suspect that this is a smokescreen to divert the narrative away from the fact that is not going as well as it should. By next April this wave will have passed, we may have prophylactic antibody treatments for those who can’t get vaccinated and a number of oral antivirals that are looking very promising. It will be a different world so im not even sure if it makes a difference now it will then.

A few ago my son caught covid at school and before was he symptomatic he managed to infect 11 people out of the 13 people in an afternoon, all the 7 adults were vaccinated. Only me and a his 83 year old diabetic great uncle who has had a booster didn’t catch it, a year ago we’d have worry that he’d survive. But everyone including his grandparents had nothing but a sniffle. That’s the success of the vaccine not preventing transmission.

Written in parallel to Devbrix post above.

deleted

Ooft – thats difficult.

personally I would have had the vaccination by now in your shoes and would be going for custody of the kids if she wanted to divorce over it. Horrible situation to be in.

even more to the point why did the management let him?

Raab was defending him this morning, saying he followed the procedures in that hospital. Which made me think they were lying.

it will most likely end up in us splitting up if i get it.

Sounds an awful situation. Is there any way of saying “either I have it or we’re homeless, I have no choice”? Or having the jab and her not finding out?

Ed, How does your missus think your getting a vaccine affects her or your kids?

sorry various issues but ive decided its best not going into them on a forum

Did ed’s wife just look over his shoulder and insist he deleted?

My instinct says everyone should get the vaccine or be put on home duties, but tj is making interesting arguments.

ed – plenty folk on here to lean on and I have found it helpful. Im not really the right person for you but sharing on anonymous forums can be helpful

It’s Hobson’s choice tbf the policy making machine cannot win. mandatory and they get hung over human rights do nothing and get hung next spring when the covid winter figures are crunched.
I guess that’s why it’s been kicked down the road untill April

Seems sensible. Don’t see what the problem is? I’m assuming to work in healthcare you need a level of intelligence sufficient to understand what’s going on.

When I worked as a forensic scientist we had to get certain vaccinations to work.

Strange nobodies brought up wearing masks and keeping your distance, all seemed to come in and not many objections

You’d think that was the case but it wasn’t.

so to me any nurse involved in this coerced vaccination would fall foul of these two provisions

If you’ve reached the point of administration they’ve given consent.

Also, unless you live in the hospital, you need to travel to work. The risk involved there is greater than the vaccine side effects.

Some People just don’t like being told what to do.

not really Drac. If the consent was obtained under duress then its invalid and also the nurse will always get consent again at the point of administration – this can be verbally and informally but you still get consent for EVERY procedure. absolutly 100% drummed in to us. consent at every stage

it could just be in the form of ” you are here for your covid jab – right arm or left?” thats obtaining consent.

not really Drac. If the consent was obtained under duress then its invalid and also the nurse will always get consent again at the point of administration

That’s exactly my point the nurse administrating the jab will ask and get them to sign, therefore gaining consent. They’re wouldn’t know about the lead up to that, any hearing would have to have proof they knew, proof the person was coerced or forced into and that they hadn’t changed their mind therefore wilfully having it.

Yes thats fine – I agree with that. hence my use of “could” and “potentially”

And would. 😉

Only me and a his 83 year old diabetic great uncle who has had a booster didn’t catch it, a year ago we’d have worry that he’d survive

In February my 83 year old diabetic grandfather died from it. He hadn’t had the chance to get vaccinated yet. I blame the negligence of the NHS Trust that discharged my grandmother without checking her test results.

What a difference 9 months has made.

did I Drac? – dagnammitt i was trying hard!

tj is making interesting arguments

The story of the government’s ineptitude in managing this whole shit show. Stop pontificating and take action.