All frontline NHS to be double jabbed to keep a job

Just to add to my last; even for me who approves of vaccine mandates, it’s galling to see it coming from a government that can’t even be bothered to wear masks at work.

There is no compulsion or legal requirement for the staff to have vaccines there Nickc – you can make it a part of pre employment requirements if you want – perfectly reasonable. You can make it a requirement to be employed there but nothing in that actually is a legal requirement to be vaccinated – quite rightly as well as there is medical ethics to consider and bodily autonomy – concepts folk on here find hard to understand.

Surely a vaccinated person has a higher chance of being asymptomatic if they do still catch Covid, and thus spread it without knowing it?

Possibly, I’m not sure if that’s been shown.

The efficacy of the vaccines was measured in terms of a reduction in severity of symptoms, so I would argue that yes, it has been shown. The test protocol for the Pfizer vaccine is here:

https://cdn.pfizer.com/pfizercom/2020-11/C4591001_Clinical_Protocol_Nov2020.pdf

It’s long and a tough read, but it would indicate that participants were required to self-report Covid symptoms before a lab test confirmed the presence of Covid.

PCR tested every 2 weeks and DEFINITELY isn’t carrying covid

No, your wife is 98-70% unlikely to have Covid at the time of the test. PCR tests can deliver a false negative result (FNR) in 2-30% of cases (depending on the study you look at); for example this large study found 9.3% FNR https://virologyj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12985-021-01489-0 (see also reference to other studies in the discussion)

p20 had Covid (tested positive having come in contact with patients at work), 3 days later I became ill stuck isolating in the same house as him (Nov 2020, pre jabs etc); but tested negative twice, but have had long Covid for a year! The PCR tests do not DEFINITELY mean anything.

Should all hospitality workers and shop workers be compulsory vaccinated? How about transport staff? Police?

Can those of you that are so keen to forcibly vaccinate healthcare staff against all law and ethics please answer this

Cougar yes I do know all that

You hide it well.

it seemed a simple way to put it as for lording it over the net that’d your job isn’t it, plum

Ah, a robust rebuttal and watertight counterargument.

@sc-xc

i don’t understand what you’re getting at. could you elaborate?genuine request

the main resistance is apparently that the majority of NHS staff understand the argument that the vaccine is still in trial phase until 2023

No it isn’t.

I’ve had mine and many other vaccines too to do my job. As despite what TJ says an employer can refuse you a job or let you continue without them.

I wonder what the actual figure is for frontline staff, it’s less than 10% that haven’t been double jabbed,

They can refuse you a job if unvaccinated but they cannot sack you once employed for refusing unless its written into your contract

You cannot be sacked for refusing covid vaccinations if you were employed prior to covid. Basic law

@sc-xc

i don’t understand what you’re getting at. could you elaborate? genuine request

Lamp said this:

that the majority of NHS staff understand the argument that the vaccine is still in trial phase until 2023

I found it an unusual comment, as my wife (experienced Lead Nurse managing 48 Covid beds) is all over this and doesn’t know a single person that agrees with the statement above.

You can make it a requirement to be employed there but nothing in that actually is a legal requirement to be vaccinated

I will follow the advice and guidance of the CQC, and as ultimately they’re the people that regulate my activity and not you. I’ll abide by what they tell if that’s all the same with you.

The efficacy of the vaccines was measured in terms of a reduction in severity of symptoms, so I would argue that yes, it has been shown.

That part has indeed been shown, but the next part of your statement “and thus spread it without knowing it” is the bit I take issue with. I don’t know of any data looking at if, in some scenarios, vaccination could somehow increase transmission due to an increase in asymptomatic spread.

However, a quick bit of Googling suggests that this concern is probably not valid and, in fact, the opposite is probably true.

Here are some sources:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2101765
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2106757

Nickc – by all means do so. the advice is perfectly correct – which is why it uses “should” not “must”

The practice “must” have procedures in place. the staff “should” be vaccinated

that wording is important

the reason for it is the respect for bodily autonomy and medical ethics right thru the profession – two things that lay folk on here are just ignoring

tj, my view is that being in hospital isn’t usually an option, where as going to the pub or to the shops are options. people also interact with the NHS to be healed, not made ill.

cops and bus drivers, more complicated, but if NHS staff need the vaccination to keep their jobs, why not every other public servant?

i’m not sure i’m entirely comfortable with forcing vaccines on people, especially when there is a risk associated with it.

the whole situation another event creating a pickle as we race ourselves towards a grim future. without wanting to become completely maudlin, while not doing anything about global warming, does covid vaccination really matter? (to me it does, for what it’s worth) it is another way to drive folk into “camps”. i suspect covid antivax folk also deny that institutionalized racism exists or that global warming is caused by humans.

Thanks for the answer LAT – its a tricky question. why single out one group of workers for action? Its really hard to make a case that NHS staff must be but other workers who can spread it do not have to me – whats the moral difference?

Genuine Question for you all. Would you rather be treated by a highly skilled, highly dedicated, highly experienced nurse who is unvaccinated but has Covid antibodies in their system, and therefore no different to a vaccinated nurse

Can you point to the study that shows that Covid antibodies due to infection persist longer than those present due to double vaccination and subsequent booster.

Just to sum up issues with compulsory vaccination ( and remember I am pro covid vaccines)

1) to retrospectively change peoples T&C would automatically be unfair dismissal – loads of case law on this

2) consent to all medical procedures must be freely given without coercion ( statute and case law) so if its vaccinate of be sacked then this is not consent freely given

3) without consent the person doing the vaccination would be guilty of assault so any healthcare worker who gave vaccinations to people in this situation should refuse to do so as there is no consent and if they do give it they are potentially in a lot of trouble.

4) compulsory vaccinations go against “bodily autonomy” – a cornerstone of medical ethics

This should have been done at least 12 months ago.
What would happen if hospital patients requested evidence of vaccination status of any staff treating them – and insisted on only being treated by staff who could prove they have been fully vaccinated.

What would happen if hospital patients requested evidence of vaccination status of any staff treating them – and insisted on only being treated by staff who could prove they have been fully vaccinated.

They would be told where to go – that tricksy concept of ethics again. Staffs medical records are private and legally cannot be disclosed to third parties

ACAS make it quite clear.

https://www.acas.org.uk/working-safely-coronavirus/getting-the-coronavirus-vaccine-for-work

Makes what quite clear?

It will be interesting when the first cases reach tribunals that will be for sure.

Bigndaft currently the nhs siren study is showing positive antibodies present from previous infection have lasted 19 months so far (the study has been running 19 months)
How long the vaccine lasts who knows as it appears no one is actually testing this and boosters are given without any data

Makes what quite clear

It will but as it stands unions are saying dismissal is a last resort not it can’t be done. I’ve seen this with staff who started before some vaccines came in, they went for years allowing them to continue. They then set a timeline, if staff still didn’t get it where they could they were offered alternative roles. If there was no alternative they were dismissed, it was backed by unions although reluctantly. Most just had them for their own good.

do the boosters cater for new variants?

do antibodies from infection infection by one variant protect against infection from another?

More annoying is my wife has to deal with pregnant women who refuse a covid test on arrival at ward, so they are defaulted to having covid  as its not compulsory and they bleat that they can’t wear a mask when in the ward yet my wife has to wear full PPE treating them . Also having to treat covid positive women due to refusing the vaccine, 6 of them last week.

Anyone who refuses a test just shouldn’t be allowed treatment. Singapore gov stopped paying for those unvaccinated through choice    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/11/08/singapore-unvaccinated-medical-costs-health-care-covid-19/

How long the vaccine lasts who knows as it appears no one is actually testing this and boosters are given without any data

Yes they have that’s why boosters have come about, I’ve no idea where you’re getting your information from.

Whose ethical concerns matter more – the staff who don’t want there records exposed or the patients being placed at greater risk by unsafe staff?

Not as easy as that – you have medical ethics to deal with, compulsory vaccination is against the human rights stuff. all sorts of shizzle.

Mmm… except that mandatory vaccinations are legally required in some EU countries and the European Courts has just refused interim suspension of French and Greek rules requiring healthcare workers to be vaccinated. Whilst that’s not to say a final decision won’t be in the favour of the workers the court has clearly decided that the balance of leaving the rules in place whilst the cases are fully considered is better than suspending the rules and “protecting” the human rights.

Should all hospitality workers and shop workers be compulsory vaccinated? How about transport staff? Police?

In my opinion if hospital and care home staff need this then yes police and prison officers should too – any occupation where being in direct prolonged close proximity to members of the public is unavoidable, and where members of the public have no realistic choice – whether because you are in custody, in need of urgent medical care or unable to leave your (care) home. I wouldn’t go as far as hospitality staff or transport staff because social distancing and/or not going to those places is a viable alternative for the users.

(I should say I’m not convinced its necessary or justified even for NHS staff / carers but if the assessment is this is the only way to get to >95% uptake I could be persuaded)

Can those of you that are so keen to forcibly vaccinate healthcare staff against all law and ethics please answer this

You are getting a bit het up TJ. Nobody on this thread or on any other I’ve read here is suggesting forcibly vaccinating people. There may well be an issue about whether it is genuine consent if your job depends on it, but lets not imply that reluctantly agreeing to a vaccine to keep your job is comparable to holding someone down and injecting them. I’d also suggest that unless the person walks into the vaccination centre and says “I’m only doing this because otherwise I’ll lose my job” that the vaccinator need not worry about being pursued for assault or misconduct by vaccinating someone.

You are also adamant that case law means this can’t be done – but unless you cite case law that is directly comparable to this then it’s not directly relevant case law, and the courts will determine each case on its merits of the facts and circumstances. Even if someone wins a case – it won’t necessarily mean that a different organisation with a better thought-through policy and procedure will lose its case. There must be case law for situations where government policies, national guidelines, industry best practice, etc have changed and employees have been required to follow those rules without them actually being written into contracts originally and where people have been dismissed for failing to update. Now I appreciate being injected with something is different from your working practice changing but it debunks the idea that every contractual requirement must be in the contract on day 1. I think it is far from clear cut where the law will sit on this – and its likely that some cases will be lost not on the principle of no-vaccine no-job but on how they go about that before any actual decision is made on the fundamental idea itself, because we all know many employers are spectacular at screwing up processes to manage HR policies. I predict by the time the courts (and likely appeal courts) have concluded that Covid will no longer be the headline news!

1) to retrospectively change peoples T&C would automatically be unfair dismissal – loads of case law on this

I’m quite sure there will be precedent for this that can be used.

For example in my line of work, PPE is a Must be worn when on site. Refusal to wear adequate PPE can lead to dismissal. However there are folk in my org who have worked for decades and would have started / contracts originally written before PPE was ever a thing.

The current Health and Safety in the workplace regulations will have been brought in and changed during the course of their employment, but they must still adhere to the same current rules.

I predict by the time the courts (and likely appeal courts) have concluded that Covid will no longer be the headline news!

:-)

Aye – maybe its not as black and white as I said but its very concerning to me from the medical ethics point of view especially the coerced consent.

If I was in a Trade Union then I’d expect them to be looking after the welfare of the majority of their members.

Nobody on this thread or on any other I’ve read here is suggesting forcibly vaccinating people.

Yes they are – under threat of dismissal.

Scruff – PPE does not violate medical ethics. Big differnce

Scotroutes – I would expect a union to represent ALL their members.

Scruff – PPE does not violate medical ethics. Big differnce

Appreciate that, but you specifically stated that terminating employment as a result of changing t&c’s of employment after they were employed/ contract signed would be unfair dismissal. I was pointing out there is precedent to counter your claim.

Yes they are – under threat of dismissal.

That’s not being “for” forcible vaccination. It’s a harsh way of saying you have freedom of choice which has serious consequences of you choose to not get vaccinated.

You may not like that position, but it is not “for” forcible vaccination.

Scotroutes – I would expect a union to represent ALL their members.

But this is a situation in which they could be forced to take sides and if the majority of their membership refuses to work with the unvaccinated then I would expect them to honour that position.

….actually…..

But this is a situation in which they could be forced to take sides and if the majority of their membership refuses to work with the unvaccinated then I would expect them to honour that position.

I have actually been involved in this sort of situation over a different issue – what the union does is represent both sides using different officers