All frontline NHS to be double jabbed to keep a job

I’ve no time really for Javid, but he turned up to a GP practice near me where a patient had inflicted some pretty serious injuries to more than a few members of staff. No TV, no reporters, just him and a member of his team. The folk who were there all said that it felt pretty good to have had his time, that Javid’s staff has followed up asking about GP staff members health, and some money for repairs and extra security turned up pretty sharpish.

Superficial – so you are happy to breach the code?

What code we talking about here?

GMC duties of a doctor:
2a) Engage with colleagues to maintain and improve the safety and quality of patient care.
2b) Contribute to discussions and decisions about improving the quality of services and outcomes.

Literally no one (apart from you) is suggesting that a patient was left waiting for analgesia / antibiotics / a commode while the staff chatted to Javid. You’re being incredibly shortsighted.

You’re being incredibly shortsighted.

TJ? Really…

I am really astonished how few folk here seem able to understand what a serious ethical issue this is. also that it will cause staffing issues – it already has done in care homes.

Interestingly I saw someone elsewhere making that argument about a paramedic in Canada who just got fired for now being vaccinated. Someone countered with an argument that was something like this:

If 90% of the workforce are vaccinated voluntarily, and 3/4 of the rest do so under mandate, you lose 2.5% of the workforce. If you don’t introduce mandatory vaccines and the virus is so prevalent that everyone who is not vaccinated gets sick over a 2 month period, each off sick for 2 weeks more than a vaccinated person would be – you effectively lose the same amount of available work – but with the higher risk of people being very ill and or dying. That’s before you consider the implications on the wider messaging that 10% of medical staff didn’t take the vaccine despite being on the front line – so either must be a dangerous vaccine or covid can’t be that bad.

As I’ve said before in this thread I’m not convinced about mandatory vaccination, but these things are never as simple people would like them to be.

superficial – the NMC code of conduct for nurses which states as above that delays to patient care are unacceptable

so you really think the staffing on that ITU is such that they can lose a couple of hours ( at a bare minimum- probably much more) of staff time without it having any effect on patient care? ( half a dozen staff for 20 mins = 2 hours of staff time)

In the case I said above where I turned my back on a politician and walked off when they wanted to speak to me I had a patient that had shit themselves and I was the only staff member free to deal with it.  Every minute I spoke to that politician was a minute longer that patient waited to be cleaned up.  Under the code did I not only have the right to ignore the politician but a duty to do so.  Stopping to speak to them would have put me in breach of thre code

Yes, and if you have some evidence that a patient on that ITU was lying in their excrement because their nurse was shooting the breeze with Sajid, then you should probably present it to any of a number of newspapers who would have a field day.

I have no evidence of course but I simply do not believe a ITU in london at the moment had 2 hours od staff time that could be used for political purposes without affecting patient care.  Of course they could be having a quiet period and the time be available – ITU workloads tend to vary widely even hour by hour but given the current state of the NHS in london I doubt it

GMC page is down right now so I cannot see the fullcode for doctors but in the summary the first duty is “make the care of your patient your first concern”

As I said – I have had this argument with senior NHS and non NHS management several times and won every time because the NMC code trumps management instructions

As I said – I have had this argument with senior NHS and non NHS management several times and won every time because the NMC code trumps management instructions

Badgering people into submission with persistent self righteousness is not the same as winning an argument on merit.

Badgering people into submission with persistent self righteousness is not the same as winning an argument on merit.

Wonderful! I don’t often genuinely laugh out loud but this is one of those times. Thank you MSP.

Its funny MSP but really not true.  You really think the board of a  housing association or the management 3 levels above me in the NHS give up just ‘cos i am being a self righteous prick?  :-)

Actually it was when i asked them to put in writing that they wanted me to break my code of conduct they backed down.   Its funny how they will not do that.  In the NHS one they totally changed the format and time of the meeting so that it did not compromise patient care.

I must have been a right pain in the arse to them :-)  All in the name of defending my patients

I wouldn’t want to be treated by someone who works in the NHS, has seen the chaos and misery that COVID-19 has wrought on the public – specifically the unvaccinated – and who has actively chosen to refuse a vaccine themselves.

If they’re ignoring their colleagues, scientists, and the overwhelming evidence in favour of vaccination then their professional abilities should quite rightly be called into account, followed by dismissal on those grounds.

And stop calling it “compulsory vaccination”. If anything it’s making anyone that visits an NHS facility in the future safer as these crackpots won’t get their hands on them.

You really think the board of a housing association or the management 3 levels above me in the NHS give up just ‘cos i am being …

… stubborn with clear objectives.

Put it this way, for anything important… I’d be grateful to have you in my corner fighting for what you think is best for me. I know you’d never give up/in.

I wouldn’t want to be treated by someone who works in the NHS, has seen the chaos and misery that COVID-19 has wrought on the public – specifically the unvaccinated – and who has actively chosen to refuse a vaccine themselves.

If they’re ignoring their colleagues, scientists, and the overwhelming evidence in favour of vaccination then their professional abilities should quite rightly be called into account, followed by dismissal on those grounds.

And stop calling it “compulsory vaccination”. If anything it’s making anyone that visits an NHS facility in the future safer as these crackpots won’t get their hands on them.

This. X100

Flaperon – I quite agree they are crackpots.  What I cannot agree with is overturning a long standing principle of medical ethics in that consent for treatment must be freely given.

I am really astonished how few folk here seem able to understand what a serious ethical issue this is.

I’m going to take issue with this claim.

I fully understand what a “serious ethical issue” this is and honestly, it’s kinda patronising that you think that what is happening here is a lack of comprehension from your readers.

What you’re overlooking is, it’s not ignorance, rather I simply don’t care what they believe. It’s an abject irrelevance.

We are in the midst of a global pandemic. If you had a TV you might’ve seen it on the news. If I’m ever unfortunate enough to find myself in a hospital then I don’t want the “vaccine-hesitant” anywhere near me because a) they’re potential plague rats and b) they’re demonstrably morons of the highest order, neither of which are qualities I seek in a healthcare professional.

“Not likely to give me a potentially fatal illness” and “not shit thick” really shouldn’t be a high bar. Because come on, seriously, who the **** is “vaccine hesitant” and yet signs up for a job with the NHS? It’s utter madness. P45s all round and bollocks to them, go and get those nice Europeans back, next question.

I know too many vulnerable people, some of whom are sadly now “knew” rather than “know.” I’m bored of this shit, and I’m so very bored of people making excuses for it. I’m absolutely against mandatory vaccines for many reasons (not least of which is, it’s a fearmongering tabloid fiction) but I’m 100% in favour of compulsory vaccines if it’s part of your goddamn job (unless you legitimately can’t). Go get a job on a building site, exercise your ‘rights’ to not wear hi-viz or a hard-hat and see how long you last. I give you till lunchtime.

consent for treatment must be freely given.

But it is.

You can have the vaccines, or you can find alternative employment. Choices, see?

With respect @tjagain I think you maybe need to take a step back from this thread -you are coming across as a tad fundamentalist and very irrational. I’ve given my opinion on mandatory vaccines previously.
You claim to be be the only one understand medical ethics, that a medic above understands his gmc code less than you and it appears you have never taken a break, attended a teaching session or gave handover during your career.
I’m a nurse and worked itu for 12 years, it is incredibly common for staff to cover each others patient for short periods -lunch break/ handover/ training/ assisting in another bedspace/ transfers- I could go on – not at all as you portray it how you were on constant standby with your lamp and cloak like Florence to mop their fevered brow.
I agree about hte political point scoring bit, but some posters above show valid reasons to engage with these people but you are the only one who can see the truth apparently.
Take a break, for your own health.

Ok I apologise if I have come over too harsh but for me to reverse hundreds of years of medical ethics seems wrong and badly wrong

cougar – for consent to be freely given it must be given without duress.  If the choice is ” consent to a medical treatment or lose your job” that is duress.

I am just surprised at how many folk on here are prepared to throw away medical ethics over this.  To mandate medication in this way is throwing away medical ethics – I have never seen in my lifetime ethics ignored like this.

And yes – its clear many folk on here simply do not understand how fundamental the point about consent is

it appears you have never taken a break, attended a teaching session or gave handover during your career.

Never if it put patients at risk.  But then I managed my time well so as to be able to do this without putting patients at risk.  I had the luxury of working in highly staffed units tho.  I have refused to go off duty until my patients were safe.  Its patients first . second and third to me.

So in the light of this we now need to rewrite the while textbook on medical ethics. No longer is valid consent needed.  Now we can use whatever level of coercion is needed to medicate people with no legal supervision.  I am glad i am retired because this is such a radical departure from the ethics I know that I could no longer work in heathcare under the new coercive ethic

What you’re overlooking is, it’s not ignorance, rather I simply don’t care what they believe. It’s an abject irrelevance.

And that is a fundamental cornerstone of medical ethic gone.  Its a fundamental part of medical ethics that a decision may be irrational but still competent.  I don’t care what folk believe either.  What I do care about is that hundreds of years of medical ethic have gone just like that

so we can now coerce people into taking medication without a court ordering it.  that stinks to high heaven

cougar a choice of take this medication or lose your job is not a free choice.  I will not stink up this thread any further but I can via PM if you like give yo a lot of information about why coercive measures are not acceptable in medicine

It a basic principle that has now gone

In times of extraordinary need (say a pandemic for example) protocol and situations need assessed and processes changed accordingly. If we are to abide by hundreds of years old ethics with no consideration of current day then that’s insane. We don’t live 200 years ago man!

Where is this mythical workplace, and how do I get a job? Or is it just you are a wonder nurse? I used to try and manage time but those selfish patients needing admission, arresting, shitting themselves always ruined my plans – how very dare they. You’re coming across as quite arrogant and beyond reproach here. My patients safety was priority too, however if the option is I piss myself or can make poor decisions due too low blood sugar or dehydration I’ll balance the risks and have a break while someone looks on.

I don’t think I’ve seen anyone say ‘valid consent’ is not needed -that’s you extrapolated opinion and your unwillingness to move from your position – its the TJ and TJagain way it seems.

Final post on this ( sorry I have been out for beers after a bad day)

For consent to be valid, it must be given voluntarily and freely, without pressure or undue influence, by an appropriately informed person who has the capacity to consent to the intervention in question. Some people may feel pressurised, by relatives or carers to accept a particular investigation or treatment.

This is the NMC code on consent

So this and all guides to medical ethics now need to be rewritten in the light of this that pressure or coercion is now a valid way to gain consent

Meanwhile.

https://twitter.com/niamh_f_kielb/status/1480285639912394761?s=21

Sorry I need to answer this

I don’t think I’ve seen anyone say ‘valid consent’ is not needed

actually under the NMC code that is exactly what folk are saying.  they are saying the coercion of accept the vaccination or lose your job is OK – well that is clearly coercion and against the NMC code quite clearly as I quoted it above

Ok chaps – I will not post on this thread again unless someone directs a question at me

I am disgusted that people think coercing people into medication against the NMC and GMC codes of conduct is acceptable.

|I agree these anti vax folk are bampots and its not acceptable.

https://www.nmc.org.uk/globalassets/sitedocuments/nmc-publications/nmc-code.pdf

cougar – for consent to be freely given it must be given without duress. If the choice is ” consent to a medical treatment or lose your job” that is duress.

No it’s not. Duress is decisions made under the threat of physical violence (or worse).

Hair-splitting aside, why is it problematic to expect healthcare professionals to take care of their own health rather than wholly avoidably expose their patients to greater risk?

I am just surprised at how many folk on here are prepared to throw away medical ethics over this. To mandate medication…

Again. No-one is mandating medication. This is not an ethics issue. Would you be shouting about the rights of someone not to have a malaria jab before going working in the Panama Canal?

It’s not mandatory. Absolutely everyone in the country has the right to say no and like you I too will fight for that right. But, actions have consequences, I equally have the right not to let unvaccinated people into my shop (if I had a shop, which I don’t.) That’s how choices work.

And yes – its clear many folk on here simply do not understand how fundamental the point about consent is

And again, this is condescending. We understand. We just disagree.

If they don’t consent then that is absolutely fine. Perfectly within their rights. But by turns then they shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near people for whom their lack of consent might kill.

As a random example my mum is chronically poorly, aside from being a stroke survivor she’s seemingly down now to just the one kidney. I picked her up from hospital after a ‘routine’ operation around Christmas. Contracting Covid will almost certainly finish her off. Are you seriously, as a nurse, going to tell me that “I choose not to have a vaccination for who the **** even knows what bullshit reason I’ve just made up” trumps my mother not being dead? Because if you are then you and I are going to have a falling out. I take your point and I broadly agree with it, but we are in atypical times and needs must.

Get vaccinated or **** off out of the health service. I know you like your black and white, but for once it really is that simple.

I am disgusted that people think coercing people into medication against the NMC and GMC codes of conduct is acceptable.

For the record I haven’t seen a compelling argument to justify forcing healthcare workers to be vaccinated against their wishes. Perhaps it exists but I’m not aware of it. Has the risk that unvaccinated healthcare workers pose been quantified?

I am intrigued to know why someone like Dr James is so opposed to being vaccinated though. He obviously feels extremely passionate about it but the only reason given that I’ve heard is that he doesn’t believe that he needs the vaccine. Which is quite a good reason for not having the vaccine but not a very good reason to refuse to have it. A good reason to refuse it would be if you felt that it might be harmful.

The most common reason given for vaccine hesitancy is “lack of trust”. I can well understand how many people might not trust the medical professions, some people for whatever reason don’t trust what they don’t understand. But is there really somewhere in the region of 10% of health workers who share in this lack of trust? It’s really quite worrying if that is the case.

Duress is decisions made under the threat of physical violence (or worse).

Nah, that’s not true, it’s not restricted to just that. Threatening to sack someone would also count.

Duress is decisions made under the threat of physical violence

Not according to the NMC as quoted above.

“For consent to be valid, it must be given voluntarily and freely, without pressure or undue influence,”

If you want to change the law on consent then fine – do it but do not attempt to pretend that this is a valid consent under the law as it exists

cougar – i studied this stuff under one of Scotlands top medico-legal experts at honours degree level and passed my exams with a distinction

I am disgusted that people think coercing people into medication against the NMC and GMC codes of conduct is acceptable.

I couldn’t give a shite about your codes of conduct and I’m frankly disgusted that you seemingly think that the life of my mother is acceptable collateral damage.

And yes, of course I know you don’t -actually- think that, but. This is where we’re heading. Which is more important, patient safety or the rights of medical staff not to use PPE if they don’t want? Because this is absolutely what this is, it’s a pointless rejection of basic safety precautions for no rational reason. Would you go for an operation with a surgeon who was exercising his rights not to use antiseptic? How about anaesthetic?

I’m frankly disgusted that you seemingly think that the life of my mother is acceptable collateral damage.

I don’t.  I think anti vaxers are stupid and my dad is in the same position – he gets covid he will die

You don’t think the codes of conduct nurses and doctors work under matter?  They are there to prevent abuse

PPE is a different issue – I have disciplined staff for not using PPE properly – no ethical issue at all

cougar – i studied this stuff under one of Scotlands top medico-legal experts at honours degree level

Then you know more about it than me.

But again: I don’t care. Couldn’t give the slightest of shites what people “think” when lives are on the line. They can stuff their beliefs up your arse and grow up, or change career.

Healthcare professionals should be professional about healthcare. Are you denying that?

People in healthcare who are “vaccine hesitant” should be facing some probing questions. Are you denying that? We shouldn’t be trying to change these minds?

Pff. I’m gonna go play some Forza before I get properly cross.

You don’t think the codes of conduct nurses and doctors work under matter? They are there to prevent abuse

Of course it matters. Where’s the abuse here?

People in healthcare who are “vaccine hesitant” should be facing some probing questions. Are you denying that? We shouldn’t be trying to change these minds?

Quite agree and they need to be dealt with.  Note in Scotland and wales where tories are not in charge of the NHS this policy is not happening

medical ethics prevents a lot of abuse.  We are in danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Would you go for an operation with a surgeon who was exercising his rights not to use antiseptic?

Agreeing to using antiseptic is not the same as agreeing to a medical procedure.

Note in Scotland and wales where tories are not in charge of the NHS this policy is not happening

Note in England the Tory government had to rely on support from the Labour Party, otherwise the policy would have failed.

Arrgghh-don’t ask me direct questions!  I was trying to get out of this!  :-)

the whole principles of consent have been worked out to prevent abuse.  Covert medication because ” doctor knows best”  forced sterilisations on people with learning difficulties, covert contraception implants on asian women, medication of  non neurortypical people to make them conform, sedating demented people to make them easier to care for all these things have happened in my lifetime

Jeepers I have seen a non neurotypical man given ECT  to make him “calm” FFS

the abuses like this have diminished greatly over my time in healthcare because we now take ethics seriously

Interesting argument from Prof. Of ethics

Prof Dominic Wilkinson, Professor of Medical Ethics and Member of UKRI Pandemic Ethics Accelerator, University of Oxford, said:
“In the earlier phase of the pandemic, some of the most medically vulnerable members of our community, patients in care homes and acutely ill patients in hospitals, ended up catching coronavirus from those caring for them. Some patients and care home residents died from infections that they caught from their caregivers.”
“That is a tragic and distressing situation that we must do everything possible to avoid repeating.
“First, we should ensure that all those who are high risk have access to vaccination. There are still approximately 10% of older adult care home residents who have not had a 2nd dose of the vaccine.
“Second, those who work in the frontline with vulnerable high risk patients have an ethical obligation to take all reasonable measures to prevent spread of the virus to those they are caring for. They must follow guidance about the use of measures like hand washing and PPE. They should take part in lateral flow testing schemes. And they should be vaccinated.
“In England, as of 10th June, 17% of adult care home workers have not had the COVID-19 vaccine.
“There is a strong ethical case that care home workers (and NHS staff) who have not had the COVID vaccine should be redeployed to areas other than frontline care.
“It would be ethical to make COVID vaccination (in the absence of a medical exemption) a condition of employment in the same way that hepatitis B vaccination is currently for some health professionals.
“If vaccines are made mandatory for health care and care home workers, they should be able to choose from available vaccines. Every effort possible should be made to address any concerns that they have about the vaccines.”

medical ethics prevents a lot of abuse. We are in danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Sure.

Where’s the abuse here?

Covert medication because ” doctor knows best” forced sterilisations on people with learning difficulties, covert contraception implants on asian women, medication of non neurortypical people to make them conform, sedating demented people to make them easier to care for all these things have happened in my lifetime

Jeepers I have seen a non neurotypical man given ECT to make him “calm” FFS

Terrible, of course. But it’s whataboutery. Last I looked, I couldn’t catch sterilisation or dementia regardless of what colour skin anyone had.

Again (again): no-one is making anyone conform. It’s a choice. And actions have consequences. Comparing the choice to be vaccinated (or not) during a global pandemic, against forced sterilisation of people with learning disabilities… well. Really? REALLY? Good grief, I have nothing further.

Sorry – I had been at the beer and its a poor way to make my point about why consent freely given without duress is important

Interesting discussion point Drac.