All frontline NHS to be double jabbed to keep a job

Javid is also a clown here. a basic rule of politics – never ask a question if you are not prepared for an answer you do not want. He should not have been in that ITU anyway – managment should have not allowed him to be there to grandstand

Why what did Javid do? My understanding was that he listened politely to Steve James but respectfully disagreed. I thought even Steve James acknowledged as much?

And of course he should have been in an ITU, as long as all the correct protocols were followed, he’s the bleedin Health Minister ffs!

We are at a particularly critical point in an extremely serious and deadly global pandemic. It the duty of the Health Minister to be proactive in the extremely important goal of advising, informing, and educating, the general public.

Visiting an ITU to emphasise the importance of vaccinations in keeping vulnerable people out of ITUs is precisely what I would expect a Health Minister to do. I would be less than impressed if he spent all his time sitting on his fat arse in some plush office. And I’m sure that you would be the first to criticise him if he did that.
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the mandatory vaccination is a tory political stunt.

And yet from what I have read in the right-wing press it is far more like to piss off Tory voters.

Javid asked a question that he was not prepared for an answer he didn’t want.  Basic rule of politics.  Never do that

Of course he should not have been in the ITU.  They have much more important things to do than waste time on political stunts / photo ops

I have actually been part of a group that threw a politician out of the unit I worked in and also turned my back on one and walked away when asked a question because you know – I had people to look after

Politicians using hospitals for photo ops stink

the political stunt is another attempt to stir up trouble and find an enemy within.  Multiple attempts to find scapegoats for the horrendous death rates we have in the UK – which are 100% the tories fault

the royal colleges and the unions did not take the bait tho leaving the tories with this absurd and counterproductive policy.  Note its England only.  compulsory vaccination is ruled out in Scotland and Wales – for the very ethical reasons I outlined

Javid asked a question that he was not prepared for an answer he didn’t want. Basic rule of politics. Never do that

What question did he ask?

According to one report :

“I wouldn’t say he agreed with me,” Mr James said. “I had the feeling he was listening.”

Sounds reasonable to me…… listened but didn’t necessarily agree – what’s wrong with that?

Btw if the hospital management agreed I don’t see a problem with the Health Secretary visiting an ITU during a period of intense public concern, but are you actually sure that he visited an ITU?

You are the only one who I have heard make that claim, and if don’t mind me saying you have been known to have been factually incorrect before.

Javid asked him what he thought of the mandatory vaccination policy.  Thats a stupid question to ask if you do not want a negative answer.  Like when Brown got caught out by a bigot answering a question honestly

i thought he was in an ITU but wherever he was he was wasting the professionals time by being there.  These folk were on duty and are busy

“Mr Javid asked staff members on the intensive care unit about their thoughts on new rules requiring vaccination for NHS workers”

From the sky report on it.

I loathe politicians of any type using hospitals for photo ops and wasting staff time.  I have had to deal with them in the past and its an utter pain which is why I will turn my back on them and walk away.  Its not for me to provide some nice back drop for their photo op which is all that is.

Many many moons ago Ken Clarke visited our HQ at the time. It was about the ambulance strike, he actually took his time to talk to whoever he could. Came across as a genuine person, especially for a Tory and wanted to find a resolve to the strike. Turning my back on him would have made me look silly and unprofessional.

Javid asked him what he thought of the mandatory vaccination policy. Thats a stupid question to ask if you do not want a negative answer.

According to this article it was Dr James who was questioning Javid, not the other way round :

https://www.google.com/amp/s/inews.co.uk/news/health/covid-19-vaccine-medics-fury-over-deluded-doctor-who-questioned-sajid-javid-nhs-mandate-1391677/amp

You will notice from the article that Dr James appears to have received a lot of criticism from other healthcare professionals, Javid doesn’t appear to have received any.

Although iNews could be in the pocket of the Tory Party, that usually seems to be the explanation.

I have watched the original interview.  Javid asks ” what do you think of the vaccination policy?”

I think James is a tosser.  This is not about the rights and wrongs of the vaccinations – to me its about the ethics of mandatory vaccinations which all the unions and royal colleges and many senior managers ( as far as I can see) are against but will not outright say so because they do not want to fall into the tory trap of creating an enemy within to blame

I am really astonished how few folk here seem able to understand what a serious ethical issue this is.  also that it will cause staffing issues – it already has done in care homes.

here you go ernie – a direct link to Javid asking the question

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-sajid-javid-directly-challenged-on-mandatory-coronavirus-jabs-by-unvaccinated-nhs-doctor-12511224

they appear to be in the staff base of the ITU and all be on duty so he has just wasted several hundred pounds worth of staff time to thousands of pounds worth.  consultant, band 7s and 6s – half a dozen staff standing around with a politician rather than getting on with what they should be doing.

Drac – whereas in the case where I did I had a patient waiting for me for care.  It would have been unprofessional of me to delay that persons care to speak to a politician.  It was also purely an election photo op.

Okay he asked them a question on a contentious issue, I can’t see much evidence that he couldn’t handle the answers, even Dr James, the other protagonist in this story, freely admits that Javid listened to him.

Obviously you believe that it was a waste of money to allow Dr James to express his views to the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, but many people take the view that senior politicians should step out of their ivory towers and connect and listen to people who experience the consequences of their decisions.

I have no problem with him meeting folk to understand what is going on and I agree Javid handled it well

what I object to is two things – wasting valuable staff time when hospitals are bursting and using the NHS for photo ops which is all this was.  He wasn’t there to find out anything – he was there to get his face on the news.

Like when Brown got caught out by a bigot answering a question honestly

Who was this? During biggotgate Mr Brown publicly apologised to Mrs Duffy and she had a seat of honour at a subsequent Labour party conference. So it can’t have been her.

Who do you think her remarks were about in the first place?

he was there to get his face on the news

And could have been turned away by the hospital or the ward clinicians if they wanted. Nobody will override either if they really object.

But they didn’t

So it’s just more faux outrage

I have no problem with him meeting folk to understand what is going on and I agree Javid handled it well

So you have no problem with him meeting people as long as it’s not face to face. Well that’s an interesting argument although not the most convincing that I’ve heard recently.

Btw I see no reason to assume that Javid might have problems getting his face on the news. He is a senior Cabinet member and everything and anything he says or does is likely to be reported in the news.

Many many moons ago Ken Clarke visited our HQ at the time. It was about the ambulance strike, he actually took his time to talk to whoever he could. Came across as a genuine person, especially for a Tory and wanted to find a resolve to the strike. Turning my back on him would have made me look silly and unprofessional.

There is an uncomfortable reality that many politicians are trying to do what most would accept is the right thing. Many may not agree with the decisions or reasons but it’s hard to argue that some really don’t try. It applies to politicians of any mainstream party. It’s why the vitriol that is blindly spouted is often really misdirected.

So you have no problem with him meeting people as long as it’s not face to face. Well that’s an interesting argument although not the most convincing that I’ve heard recently.

Nope – I do not want politicians taking up staff time when they are on duty in the middle of a pandemic that causes huge workloads.  I do not want Politicians using NHS facilitiesd for photo ops for personal publicity.

When staff time is limited and under huge pressure to use up hours of staff time ( half a dozen staff for 10 – 15 mins) then that is wrong

I am astonished you do not see this.  Staff time is limited and under huge pressure.  to take staff on duty out of work is wrong.

There is an uncomfortable reality that many politicians are trying to do what most would accept is the right thing

Utter nonsense.  To the tories its all a game about power and control.  If they wanted to “do the right thing” they would not be tories.  tory policy is to destroy the NHS

If this was about “fact finding” why the TV cameras?

I am astonished you do not see this.

And I’m astonished that you have “no problem with him meeting folk to understand what is going on” but castigate him for doing precisely that.

Presumably you would have been happier if the Secretary of State for Health had met Dr James down the pub after work?

Are you being deliberatly dense?

the problem is taking staff away from their work to meet him – and of course doing it on camera which shows its a publicity stunt not a fact finding mission anyway

If he wants to meet up with staff then he needs to set up a meeting where he is NOT taking staff away from their jobs to do so.

ITUs are under huge pressure.  to take staff out of their work to speak to politicians means someone somewhere is not getting the care they should.  You really think its more important to speak to a politician for a publicity stunt that looking aftert those very sick people?

Care work is unlike other work.  It cannot wait.  Someone has received sub optimal care because the politician took up staff time

I am really astonished how few folk here seem able to understand what a serious ethical issue this is. also that it will cause staffing issues – it already has done in care homes.

Maybe you’re confusing what you think with what we think?

For me I don’t have a problem with mandated healthcare, when it’s been through the proper checks & balances. This is how infectious diseases have been dealt with for centuries.

Personally I’ve had to take injections to enable me to do my job (international travel) as otherwise I wouldn’t be allowed into the country I was working nor would you want me to return to the UK carrying the diseases if I caught them.

Staffing-wise, it may/will cause an issue but TBH do we actually want people with this view in our healthcare system?

Are you being deliberatly dense?

the problem is taking staff away from their work to meet him

I wasn’t there. I don’t know if Dr James left the patients he was attending to express his views to the Secretary of State.

You presumably think he did. So that’s another criticism that can be leveled at Dr James….. not only does he apparently talk shite about the covid vaccine but he also abandons his patients to talk shite to the Health Secretary.

Are you sure Dr James shouldn’t be facing disciplinary action?

Ernie – there is a difference between care work and other work – care work is delayed it harms people.  Other work is delayed it did not

its not just the doctor who had their time wasted – its all the nurses and ancilliary staff.

IN hospitals and ITU especially there is always more work than time available.  So to take staff out of work reduces the amount of care they can give

because of Javids visit somone received less care that day than they would have done without Javid being there

For me I don’t have a problem with mandated healthcare, when it’s been through the proper checks & balances. This is how infectious diseases have been dealt with for centuries.

Nonsense.  Mandated care before has been only used in extremis and only with a court order.  there has never been mandated care like this on a politicians instructions and of course this is without those “checks and balances

Staffing-wise, it may/will cause an issue but TBH do we actually want people with this view in our healthcare system?

Which would you rather have – care from non vaccinated or no care?

care from non vaccinated or no care?

That’s not the the choice on offer though is it? It’s care from people who’ve been vaccinated and some units more short staffed then usual (if folks actually put their weird beliefs about vaccine over an income, which I doubt). Given the parlous state of staffing in the NHS will barely make any difference to the overall performance anyway.

I’m with tjagain on this point:

If he wants to meet up with staff then he needs to set up a meeting where he is NOT taking staff away from their jobs to do so.

He would also go without a camera crew and his hangers-on, go in quietly and on the agreement of the people who he wishes to talk to.

Javid seems to be courting controversy to keep him in the media’s spotlight and for alterior motives.

He would also go without a camera crew

Why would he go on a publicity exercise about the covid vaccine without a camera crew?

If he wants to meet up with staff then he needs to set up a meeting where he is NOT taking staff away from their jobs to do so.

A meeting probably takes them away for longer.

because of Javids visit somone received less care that day than they would have done without Javid being there

The counter argument is because of Javid’s visit some staff got more resources or felt more valued/listened to and therefore every patient for the rest of the year was better off! Or some people at home decided to get vaccinated and didn’t end up in hospital and the whole system was better off. Now I don’t rate Javid, but if you want better care in hospitals etc its probably best not to treat them as secret institutions that public and politicians never see inside, and who’s front line staff never meet the top man even briefly.

They politicians can meet staff so long as they are not taking them away from their work

Having had experience of politicians visiting units its hugely disruptive and damages patient care

I also object to them using the NHS for personal publicity

Poly – I also refused to go to useless meetings.  Got threatened with disciplinary for doing so.  I quoted the NMC code of conduct to the management and pointed out that to go to their useless meeting when I had patients to care for would put me in breach of the NMC code.  they dropped the threat and stopped trying to make me go to useless meetings

I also had a non NHS emplyer try to tell me that my primary loyalty was to the company.  I pointed out to them that under the code it was actually to the patients first, the NMC code second and then the company ie that if the company told me to do something that was against the code not only did I have the right to refuse but also a duty to refuse.  they didn’t like it one bit.

My patients came first,

Poly – I also refused to go to useless meetings.

So you think that Javid should listen to staff but only at a special meeting which you would condemn as useless.

I think it’s fair to say that whatever Javid were to do, whether it’s stay in his office, go to a hospital, speak to staff either in a special meeting or not a special meeting, you will oppose it.

The problem for you is who Javid is, what he has or hasn’t done isn’t really relevant, it’s all going to be wrong. You should have said that from the start, would have saved some misunderstanding concerning what you were on about.

As someone who works in a hospital, I would value politicians coming in and interrupting my work day, if that meant a) My opinion was heard b) I felt valued c) the NHS / my specialty got national publicity.

I’m happy to see the health minister on the shop floor, seeing for himself what’s going on. It’s very short-sighted to see it only as taking healthcare workers away from their patients and grandstanding on the part of the politicians.

No Ernie.

Its purely about Javids actions here

1) using the hospital for a personal publicity stunt

2) taking staff away from their duties which damages patient care

If a meeting has some purpose and does not damage patient care i would go.  I would certainly meet with a politician as long as the meeting did not take me away from my patients

I think the concepts outlined in the NMC code are hard for layfolk to understand

make sure that any treatment, assistance or care for which<you are responsible is delivered without undue delay

https://www.nmc.org.uk/globalassets/sitedocuments/nmc-publications/nmc-code.pdf

Superficial – so you are happy to breach the code?

Poly – I also refused to go to useless meetings.

who got to decide whether the meeting was useless?

Me – its my responsibility under the code.  Its my duty and obligation under the code.  Again if you are not ( and even sometimes if you are) its hard to understand a professionals obligations under the code.  You have to refuse an order from management if it means breaching the code of conduct.

its a simple 2 part test test.  “will this improve patient care?”  ” Will patient care be delayed if I go to this meeting”

The fact the management dropped the threat of disciplinary shows I was right.  they also change the meeting times so it did not interfere with patient care.  I was not the only one to refuse

There is an uncomfortable reality that many politicians are trying to do what most would accept is the right thing. Many may not agree with the decisions or reasons but it’s hard to argue that some really don’t try. It applies to politicians of any mainstream party. It’s why the vitriol that is blindly spouted is often really misdirected.

In part they have “themselves” as a group to blame for that. Partisan political point scoring and an inability to stamp out sleaze within their ranks means that the public don’t see politicians as people trying to solve problems for the good of society/country but as manipulators trying to make themselves successful. I dare say that many who pushed the “democratic will of the people” even believed they were doing the right thing – although you have to wonder if they are intellectually qualified in that case…!

This is how you lose the fight though. The consultant gets top billing and his views get churned out again.

They politicians can meet staff so long as they are not taking them away from their work

I 100% get your logic. On the other hand if 90% of the organisation are moaning about things that are wrong, and they are the ones who are too busy to meet the leadership the leaders get a biased view from the 10% who aren’t at the coal face.

Having had experience of politicians visiting units its hugely disruptive and damages patient care

Having experienced it in other settings I 100% am not surprised. HOWEVER, I’ve also seen that the department that did host the politicians was front of mind when the budgets came to be set, and when the politicians came up with funding initiatives. Is it a greater good question? The 20 patients on the ward today are delayed for half an hour, but theres a small chance that life improves for all patients this year, versus best possible care for that 20 today but possibly worse care for all future patients (as your obstructive department gets budget cut to support more helpful ones).

The fact the management dropped the threat of disciplinary shows I was right.

A common misconception! That just means they decided it wasn’t worth the argument.

By the way I also have a policy of not wasting my time in meetings I add zero value to and get nothing from. My current manager is on board with that. I am perfectly aware its probably career limiting. I am also aware that sometimes decisions will be made without me being there and I may have to live with them and have no right to complain because I was invited and decided I was too important for the meeting.