All frontline NHS to be double jabbed to keep a job

Interesting that he’s a consultant anaesthetist because i know a few medical professionals and the only one who has refused a vaccine is a…

…consultant anaesthetist!

Maybe there has been a scare story on the Anaesthetist-track World forum?

FFP3 masks in all clinical areas for all staff and everywhere for anyone with increased risk score (immunocompromised etc). Surgical masks mandatory on site for all staff and mandatory in the buildings for everyone. Shared offices are avoided where possible and where not possible the perspex screens are still in situ from previous waves. Don’t know about other trusts but I expect their measures are similar.

FFP3 for procedures of aerosol techniques or a dynamic risk assessment by staff, FFP2 for moving around, close contact, when sat down socially distancing, screens and open windows.

I would argue if the GMC don’t pull him in for an interview without coffee they aren’t fit for purpose

Not a chance and it would be badly wrong to do so.  thought crime?  come off it

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/08/end-mass-jabs-and-live-with-covid-says-ex-head-of-vaccine-taskforce

Interesting that he’s a consultant anaesthetist because i know a few medical professionals and the only one who has refused a vaccine is a…

…consultant anaesthetist!

Maybe there has been a scare story on the Anaesthetist-track World forum?

There is unfortunately no such equivalent to STW for Anaesthetists – although given that most of them only talk about coffee and road bikes they would fit right in here.

I know quite a lot of anaesthetists – in that I am one – and can confirm that the one you know plus this one in Georges are barking and are definite outliers. We have all seen so many die of Covid that we were desperate to get the first jab in our arms. ITU whilst still busy, given the community case numbers is like night and day to how it was, the vaccines are having a massive effect.

Yup all the A&E consultants I know, GPs, Anaesthetists and other consultants all have been jabbed, very pro-jabbed and happy for it to be compulsory. A few have been quite vocal about this guy and his very different views, which go against the science he’s ignored.

thought crime?

No, challenge to non medic with technical medical questions on national TV during a global pandemic, he’ll know he’s the now the anti vax poster boy and used to justify not getting jabbed

He didn’t need to do it that way

His crime is not a “thought crime”, it’s a deliberately vocally undermining national public health strategy crime during his paid hours working for the same organisation that is promoting vaccination on national TV.

He could have just gone to the loo and avoided the whole thing

I dont think he’s that alone though in saying people who have had covid wouldn’t need to get the vaccine. The antibodies from having it cover you.

The antibodies from having it cover you.

But they don’t. Having some antibodies from previous infection(s) do not protect nearly as well as also having the vaccine on top of (or before) infection. There was a time when it was hoped that existing antibodies from infection would mean vaccination isn’t needed to ward off reinfection (and possible ill health), but it hasn’t turned out that way unfortunately. He’s very out of date as regards medical knowledge if he maintains that is the case now.

It’s worth remembering when considering whether disciplinary action against Steve James would be justified that when orthopedic surgeon David Nunn embarrassed a NHS trust on national television he was disciplined.

Despite the fact that unlike Steve James the issue David Nunn was making a point about in front of TV cameras was actually the NHS trust’s policy.

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2011/jun/22/surgeon-pm-hospital-leave

was Nunn disciplined – article says he went on indefinite leave, which might have been sensible, stress related, whatever…..

I have a small amount of sympathy – it’s an opinion, it’s (IMHO) incorrect but not totally crackpot, and it’s not just policy but it is a matter that affects people personally more than a directive on tie wearing or car parking charges for example. It’s an opinion and discussion he’s entitled to have.

But sympathy evaporates when you grandstand it to make a point, slightly tempered if you consider that this might be the one chance to have the conversation, IMHO should have asked to speak to Javid off camera to avoid undermining policy and then no-one would have known.

Some of you guys are getting totally hysterical about this.  Point out what the doctor has actually done wrong that he could be disciplined for?  You are allowed to question.

Nunn was not disciplined

Should Dr Dix be disciplined for saying “end the booster campaign?

No, challenge to non medic with technical medical questions on national TV during a global pandemic,

The challenge came from Javid, The medic was asked a question and gave an honest answer.

I don’t think he should be disciplined in any way for raising his concerns. The manner of the reporting worries me, and the fuelling of antiVax sentiment coming at a time when the UK is shifting to a pandemic response that is basically vaccinations (and treatments) only. Spreading doubt about our medical response at a time when we are leaning on it so heavily, and watering down social responses (in England) to next to nothing, isn’t responsible, in my opinion.

Anti-vax are all over this response with the typical “Well if our Dr’s, who are experts, won’t have it then it makes you wonder what’s in it.” Completely ignoring the fact he’s represents a tiny amount of NHS Drs.

Should Dr Dix be disciplined for saying “end the booster campaign?

I not sure he needs to be disciplined but a chat a behaviour and perceived attitudes would be beneficial for all parties. Of course Dix shouldn’t be disciplined, he comments are worlds apart. He’s saying as it stands at the moment after this booster it’s looking like, for now, no more or needed. That is far from anything like the other guy.

So in your NHS Drac no one can challenge policy?  Please point out what the doc said that merits disciplinary action?

Its worth noting that the trade unions, the professional bodies and the NHS management do not want this policy of mandated vaccines

https://www.rcplondon.ac.uk/guidelines-policy/rcp-response-government-consultation-mandatory-vaccination

https://www.rcn.org.uk/about-us/our-influencing-work/position-statements/rcn-position-on-mandating-vaccination-for-health-and-social-care-staff

etc etc

His crime is not a “thought crime”, it’s a deliberately vocally undermining national public health strategy crime during his paid hours working for the same organisation that is promoting vaccination on national TV.

Phrased much better than I tried last night.

If I undermined HMRCs tax policy to the Chancellor on the TV news I’d be out on my ear, no doubt about it.

So in your NHS Drac no one can challenge policy?  Please point out what the doc said that merits disciplinary action?

Absolutely nothing like I said. I mentioned behaviours and perceptions, he came across badly, he looked just like an angry individual rather than discussing opinion calmly. Perceived attitude as I say, nothing to do with the vaccine.

was Nunn disciplined – article says he went on indefinite leave, which might have been sensible, stress related, whatever…..

Well maybe disciplined isn’t the correct term to describe how they reacted to his embarrassing behaviour in front of national TV cameras, what would you call gardening leave?

But it has ended badly for 57-year-old David Nunn, the orthopaedic surgeon blamed for startling the Prime Minister and his deputy, who has unexpectedly gone on leave, and for his NHS patients who now face longer waits to be seen by Mr Nunn’s hard-pressed colleagues.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/gardening-leave-for-surgeon-who-railed-at-clegg-and-cameron-2301353.html

And btw I’m not necessarily suggesting that Steve James should be disciplined, I am simply pointing out that a NHS trust can be expected to be concerned about the behaviour of their staff in front of national TV cameras.

And that applies to all employers btw.

In his interview this morning, the sum total of his argument was that he didn’t want to be vaccinated and that duration of protection from transmission was about eight weeks. There was really no substance to his message. The former is a position that will be incompatible with employment, and the latter is very poorly estimated.

Will the numbers leaving the NHS due to the policy be more than offset by the now reduced absence due to full vaccination? It’s an obvious question. At a time of high infection I would expect this to be the case.

Dix used the wrong argument. Omicron is a different beast to wild-type, alpha, beta and delta C19 with the key points being it’s much less pathogenic for the vast majority of people but very, very easily spread. The main issue for the NHS is not of staff dying of Omicron but vast numbers having to isolate with a sore throat and runny nose. Being vaccinated largely makes no difference to spread but reduces the risk of serious illness – so the issue of all NHS staff being vaccinated is now out of date. I’m pro-vaccination, triple vaccinated and was quite literally first in the queue at my hospital for it and a few weeks ago was all in favour of the change in law for NHS staff to have to be vaccinated given how many have died. That was before Omicron, now in my view is mandatory vaccination is a non-issue and the right PPE and infection control is the one we should be most concerned about.

Turns out Mr James may have an ulterior motive for downplaying the effectiveness of the vaccine. – Isn’t it always the way? He may be a bit of a quack. Lots of “functional medical detox” horseshit on his website…Once again your occasional reminder that completion of a medical degree does immunise one from the profit available through the wellness culture

Can’t say I’m shocked.

Me neither – anti vaxers generally are bampots.   Thats not the point tho – the point is the moral and ethical issues around mandatory vaccinations and the staffing issues this will cause

As above – the unions and the royal colleges are against it as are many senior NHS managers

Mandatory vaccination is a moral and ethical issue

Undermining your employers very important public health message is another one entirely.

Unions are very cautiously worded, encouraging all members to get vaccinated but also saying they’re discussing the issue of compulsory vaccines.

Unions and the royal colleges make their opposition clear in carefully worded statements – carefully worded so as not to upset the government

Javid is also a clown here.  a basic rule of politics – never ask a question if you are not prepared for an answer you do not want.  He should not have been in that ITU anyway – managment should have not allowed him to be there to grandstand

I’m not really understanding the opposition here- when I started training I had to get all kinds of vaccinations including hepatitis and the like, and there was a good clinical reason for this- it was to protect my patients. This is the same clinical reasoning that applies to the covid vaccine- but this time there is an added and very obvious need to protect the community added in too. So why are we getting shitty about it? Just let us get on with it and stop all the anti vax bullshit, I’m sick of hearing it tbh

Shermer – as explained before there are huge ethical and moral issues over this ( mandatory vaccination).  Its a massive departure from normal medical practice,  consent cannot be given under duress and the threat of dismissal is duress and its going to cause staffing issues.

Its turning centuries of medical ethics on its head.  Note its only in England – Scotland and Wales hare not doing this

all those vaccines you had were voluntary and not to protect patients anyway but to protect staff and they are NOT mandatory

Being anti vbax is stupid yes – but making vaccines mandatory is not the answer here.  anyone who is sacked for not having it will have an strong case for unfair dismissal

I am astonished how few folk on here even in the trade have so little understanding of medical ethics.  I find that really concerning.  How can yo stand up for your patients without a basic understanding of ethics, consent and autonomy.  Read the NMC guide on autonomy – a keystone of nursing practice.

all those vaccines you had were voluntary and not to protect patients anyway but to protect staff and they are NOT mandatory

Mine were, my eldest is just going through the last steps to start her training with the NHS. She has to have the same vaccines and covid or they’ll not take her on.

NOt so Drac.  suggested, encouraged, perhaps even made a condition of starting employment but that is very different from mandatory vaccination of existing staff.  I know this for a fact as I refused some they wanted me to have ( rubella, hep and flu)

The managment may make it sound like its compulsory but a[part from a very small number of specialist units there is no mandate on vaccines.  Its not a part of your T&C to have them

Having said that – in your job I would have had the lot in an instant

that is very different from mandatory vaccination of existing staff.I know this for a fact as I refused some they wanted me to have

We’ve covered this. I had to have additional vaccines after I started, as did many staff some of which more vaccines then myself. The option was have them or redeployment to a none frontline emergency care position if there as a suitable one.

You’re in different countries… so can both be right without it being contradictory.

Its worth noting that the trade unions, the professional bodies and the NHS management do not want this policy of mandated vaccines

Is that though because they’re actually more bothered with staffing levels than whether those staff could pass on Covid to patients?

devbrix

That was before Omicron, now in my view is mandatory vaccination is a non-issue and the right PPE and infection control is the one we should be most concerned about.

Worth remembering that Delta hasn’t gone away but is running in parallel to omicron to one degree or another.

Are there now enough anti-vax NHS people to exclusively staff a hospital for the sole use of anti-vax COVID patients?
Kill two bird-brains with one stone.

Like the idea big John!  might be a slightly odd staffing mix given that midwives ad anaesthetists seem to be over represented :-)

Is that though because they’re actually more bothered with staffing levels than whether those staff could pass on Covid to patients?

I suspect that its also the ethical considerations as well as the practical on staffing levels

the mandatory vaccination is a tory political stunt.

You’re in different countries… so can both be right without it being contradictory.

Of course, but look who are doing the arguing! 🤣

You’re in different countries… so can both be right without it being contradictory.

Yup. I work for NHS England who are implanting this.

Of course, but look who are doing the arguing!

:)