All frontline NHS to be double jabbed to keep a job

Where on earth did you get that from?

From this.

I very much doubt it.  these are people who are mainly following fundamentalist religions I believe.  given the choice ( in their heads) of getting vaccinated and then being condemned to hell or losing their job which will they choose?

Not being vaccinated is not a rational decision so we cannot expect these people to behave rationally

Hope that helps

Drac – its concentrated into hotspots not evenly distributed.

What is? The uptake.

I get your concern TJ, and I can understand the sensitivity around race or religion, but I’m afraid, based on comments from friends in the NHS and comments from others on here with first hand knowledge, it’s going to be a very few units nationally where the problem is this serious and the majority of people don’t have a problem if it comes to it.

Hope that helps

Yes – I now see you have conflated two statements and added 2+2 to make 3!

The decision not to be vaccinated is never a rational one.  this might be religious based or it might be some other reason.  I believe its mainly religious based but religious based or not its still irrational

What is? The uptake.

Yes

Yes – I now see you have conflated two statements and added 2+2 to make 3!

The decision not to be vaccinated is never a rational one.  this might be religious based or it might be some other reason.  I believe its mainly religious based but religious based or not its still irrational

Not sure that’s made it any clearer but sorry if I’m misunderstanding your point.

it’s going to be a very few units nationally where the problem is this serious

Yes – but if as it appears to be concentrated in specialties and geographic areas then in might cause real issues in those geographical areas

Yes – but if as it appears to be concentrated in specialties and geographic areas then in might cause real issues in those geographical areas

If that were the case then yes but there seems to be no real evidence that’s the cases.

Not sure that’s made it any clearer but sorry if I’m misunderstanding your point.

I get where you are coming from – given my known loathing of religion and i wasn’t clear.

Its the decision not to be vaccinated that is irrational.  It doesn’t matter if its religious or some other reason so i am NOT saying its only irrational if religious.

If that were the case then yes but there seems to be no real evidence that’s the cases.

There is plenty of data on this.

There is plenty of data on this.

Is there? Also which religions don’t support vaccines?

Also which religions don’t support vaccines?

Most if not all of the main religions have sub sects which vary widely in their interpretation of religious texts and practices as well as social controls. Anyone who bangs on about all Christians or all Muslims or all Hindus etc are just showing their lack of understanding of that religion usually due to some antipathy to that or all religion

Also which religions don’t support vaccines?

Of the top of my head?  christian scientists?  Jehovah witness? * Ithink)

As big and daft says tho its more about some odd sects / fundamentalists within religeons

Is there?

Yes – the regional variations in NHS staff take up of vaccines is well documented  Its on the NHS website if you want to dig into to it and has been in many news stories

The latest NHS figures show vaccination rates vary hugely: among hospitals, Dorset County hospital has the highest at 94.6%, while Barts Health NHS Trust has the lowest rate of fully vaccinated staff, at 79.7%.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59215282

I’ll clear up one of those points TJ.

Jehovah’s Witnesses do not object to the Covid-19 vaccines and have supported it’s uptake to prevent serious illness or death.

Just for clarity.

Of the top of my head?  christian scientists?  Jehovah witness? * Ithink)

Jehovah Witness no they don’t refuse on religious grounds. I don’t think the UK has much of a population of Christian Scientists.

Barts Health NHS Trust has the lowest rate of fully vaccinated staff, at 79.7%.

So the lowest at around 80% seems unlikely they’ll be many units with high amounts of unvaccinated frontline staff.

Jehovah Witness no they don’t

Some do. There is a JW chuch group in Ringwood who won’t have it on religious grounds as they determine it to be a medical intervention.

As TJ says, there are subsets of all religions that interpret the “rules” differently.

So the lowest at around 80% seems unlikely they’ll be many units with high amounts of unvaccinated frontline staff.

I’m with Drac. I’m still not feeling this is likely to be a major problem, and if vaccination rates are lower mainly in major urban areas I can’t see any hypothetical unit closures leaving an area with no cover at all – lower availability or quality of care maybe.

I understand your concerns around this whole issue TJ, but I’m not sure the data is supporting the risks that you think it does.

(In true STW fashion, I have no separate data to support my view.)

sorry, that didn’t work as intended!

Well the NHS leaders seem to think it a problem.  and the stats agree

and if vaccination rates are lower mainly in major urban areas I can’t see any hypothetical unit closures leaving an area with no cover at all –

Remember in England trusts are in competition not co operation.

if vaccination rates are lower mainly in major urban areas I can’t see any hypothetical unit closures leaving an area with no cover at all

What about the effect of having large (relatively) numbers of staff unvaccinated on staffing levels when a wave hits (like this winter)?

That ~80% worse case for trusts is very reassuring actually. I thought it might be lower, considering the regional variations in uptake for flu jabs for health staff.

@TJ your interpretation of the stats around this fact fits very well with your ‘state overreach’ narrative. Why do you think this is?

I know I’m trolling a bit here, but I’m not going to apologise. I haven’t looked closely at the stats, and I’m also not disagreeing with the anti-authoritarian concerns. But I think we all have to be mindful of when we are performing mental gymnastics.

Remember in England trusts are in competition not co operation.

Not since the  “Five Year Forward View” they’re not. It comes down to: Is it safer to close a unit rather than have unvaccinated staff running it? I can guess the CQC’s  take on it.

I was wondering how to phrase it, but yes, maybe you are interpreting the figures to support your entirely reasonable concerns about the rights and wrongs of compulsory vaccination.

Even in the article, I’m not seeing data to justify, as I pointed out earlier, a very large “if” in the reported concerns.

I think there is a debate around idealism and pragmatism on the issue but I personally don’t think we want to be justifying what you yourself consider stupidity in health care staff, ever.

Some do. There is a JW chuch group in Ringwood who won’t have it on religious grounds as they determine it to be a medical intervention.

The subset of those belonging to such a church and also working in a hospital ‘medically intervening’ with others is surely (thankfully) vanishingly small, or in fact zero.

The number of extreme JWs – or any other group opposed to medical intervention – employed in health care settings should be small enough to stand out in even the most cursory of audits!

There is a JW chuch group in Ringwood who won’t have it on religious grounds as they determine it to be a medical intervention.

They all must work in the same maternity unit.

I’m not saying they work in the nhs, but there is at least one I know of that has just left the care sector because of the vaccine mandate.

You asked what religions object to vaccines. I provided one example that I know of.

I did and so far we have 2 possible religions, none of which are a high number and one of which is unlikely to work in the NHS. And we have a sample of 1 person leaving the care sector, so they’re not having a significant effect.

Chris Hopson, the chief executive of NHS Providers, said that at one hospital trust in England, 40 midwives were refusing to get jabbed, raising fears that the maternity unit may have to close.

I was wondering how to phrase it, but yes, maybe you are interpreting the figures to support your entirely reasonable concerns about the rights and wrongs of compulsory vaccination.

Nope – I am just seeing this differntly.  some of you are looking at the broad brush figures and seeing no issue.  I understand this is a very concentrated and local effect as in the quote above.  So yes across the NHS as a whole no huge issue but in particular areas or units – a huge issue

NHS providers is a private company, not part of the NHS.

https://nhsproviders.org/about-us/working-for-us/our-team/chris-hopson

Its part of the funny setup they have in england is it not?

Stupid formatting linky no worky.

NHS Providers is the membership organisation for NHS trusts in England, which takes part in negotiations between the trusts and the Department of Health[1] and provides development support to trust leaders.[2] Until 2011, it was a section of the NHS Confederation.

Claiming 90% of trusts as members, NHS Providers is overseen by a board of 20 trust chiefs.[3] The organisation’s chief executive since 2012[4] is Chris Hopson[5] and its chair is Sir Ron Kerr, former chief executive of Guy’s and St Thomas’ NHS Foundation Trust, London.[6]

So, was actually in a London hospital and skirted the conversation over a few visits with a few staff recently. The response: Not too fussed, we have all caught it before being vaccinated, impossible to work in hospital and not get it. Then we got vaccinated, then another other variant came, but it’s not as bad as the one we already caught and have natural antibodies + vaccination against. I simplify greatly but mainly they didn’t much care. Patients with it a few metres away. Just dealing with it with zero panic or judgement. Covered losing key personnel and they said it was a massive problem but bigger worries are retirement, early retirement, going private, moving out of the city, or healthcare altogether. When you add this latest issue to an already stressed system is where trouble builds up. Hope there is good succession planning for key people across the whole country.

Just seen the figures for our trust, it covers all staff. They’re very high which explains why I’ve literally had one person ask what may happen.  I’m still struggling to believe there’s a unit with 40 unvaccinated midwives.

Local trust is now progressing with 1 to 1s with the unvaccinated staff (in the relevant population). As I understand it 1st April is the deadline.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jan/07/ministers-urged-to-delay-mandatory-covid-jabs-for-nhs-staff-in-england

On Wednesday Sir David Nicholson, the former chief executive of NHS England who is now the chair of the Sandwell and West Birmingham hospitals trust, said that it could lose hundreds of staff as a result of mandatory vaccination.

Still think this is not an issue?

Looks like Sky News are about to get kicked off Twitter: https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1479532922952732672

My fiancée is a reporting radiographer and all she’s been doing is reporting covid X-rays, I’ve seen them…. They’re horrific!
What it does to the lungs is truly disgusting, the white patches can be so thick it looks like bone.

All jabs had here, so glad too as it’s the unvaccinated in most of the cases locally who are in ICU

On Wednesday Sir David Nicholson, the former chief executive of NHS England who is now the chair of the Sandwell and West Birmingham hospitals trust, said that it could lose hundreds of staff as a result of mandatory vaccination.

I could win the lottery if I bought a ticket.

Saw that Sky report on last nights news. MrsMC, who is far more relaxed about Covid and “the rules” than I am suggested that the consultant came across as a “proper knob”.

Seriously, I’d rather someone like that wasn’t treating me or my family. I’d have no faith in anything he told me, no matter what his area of specialism.

I’m sorry for his colleagues who’d have to pick up his work, and the delays his loss would cause patients, but that attitude has no place in the NHS.

So to go back to TJs restarting post

On Wednesday Sir David Nicholson, the former chief executive of NHS England who is now the chair of the Sandwell and West Birmingham hospitals trust, said that it could lose hundreds of staff as a result of mandatory vaccination.

Good. They undermine the credibility of the service they are supposed to represent.

Still think this is not an issue?

Though I accept it’s an issue.