All frontline NHS to be double jabbed to keep a job

I work for the NHS one of my roles is manning the Covid desk for staff. I can tell you that’s not going to happen, unless staff have broken the PPE and socially distance regulations.

Drac – a workplace contact for nhs staff won’t count as a reason to isolate IF they were wearing PPE etc, although presumably does between colleagues in the mess room or same vehicle just as it would between my non NHS staff?

However household contacts, people you met down the pub etc are all proper contacts and do require you to isolate/test regardless of profession.

Out of interest, are you implying that a vaccinated person who has been exposed to a Covid case should not need to isolate?

You need to familiarise yourself with current guidance buddy.

You need to familiarise yourself with current guidance buddy.

It is indeed surprising that someone would have to ask that, but I guess in their defence the guidance/rules have changes so many times it is hard to keep up.

Yeah, agreed, that’s why I followed it up with buddy, it’s easy to miss out on the details sometimes, I think we’re all a bit covid beaten really.

Drac – a workplace contact for nhs staff won’t count as a reason to isolate IF they were wearing PPE etc, although presumably does between colleagues in the mess room or same vehicle just as it would between my non NHS staff?

However household contacts, people you met down the pub etc are all proper contacts and do require you to isolate/test regardless of profession.

Yes that’s correct only in the work environment. No, mess rooms should still be socially distant and they should wear ppe in work vehicles. Car sharing to work then PPE is asked to be worn.

Drac,

How good do you think compliance with mess room etc stuff is? Are you saying that if two people share the same vehicle – so potentially in the same cab for 4 hrs out of a 12 hr shift? just disposable surgical masks and one tests positive the other is not required to test/isolate?

Do you think compliance is higher in NHS/Amb Sev and do you think staff will feel able to say – well no we both took our masks off in the cab when on our lunch? or there were six of us in the mess room – there’s no way we were all 1m apart ? I’m pretty sure in my private sector world people would say “of course we followed the rules” especially if the alternative is the risk of effectively 10 days in house arrest – quite a sanction for crowding over the paper to look at the crossword.

Ah yes got me on that one point. No, I don’t really bother trying to keep up to date with all the changes.

Well yes you can only go off trust to a certain extent. However, despite that, speaking for trust, staff are pretty compliant it’s not all staff of course but certainly a majority.

I can tell you that’s not going to happen, unless staff have broken the PPE and socially distance regulations.

Sorry, what’s not going to happen? The story as I told it, or having to isolate if you test positive? I am certain both are true. I’m sure you have got some idea of my position on this, and I have had many disagreements with relative in question, which should give you some idea of their position. Point is – I have no idea why they would make that up.

So, Austria have taken this a step further

Deja-vu?

So, Austria have taken this a step further

Those of us that are worried about the way forced vaccination is being dealt with from sacking 100,00 NHS workers, to only the vaxxed being allowed to leave ther houses in Austria are labelled nutters

having to isolate if you test positive?

That they don’t test in case they are positive because their colleagues and patients will have to isolate. Like I said they’re rules in place so they won’t need to isolate

Point is – I have no idea why they would make that up.

Maybe you misunderstood or they didn’t even say that.

That they don’t test in case they are positive because their colleagues and patients will have to isolate.

I think you misunderstood what I said. This relative tells me that NHS staff where they work avoid testing, because they themselves isolating would place an undue burden of work on the remaining staff at the site.

I did not misunderstand what they said, and even remonstrated that it’s preposterous that staff can arbitrarily make such choices about what is best for patients and other staff, while I am required to jump through all sorts of absurd hoops to continue some parts of my life (and a life that does not involve caring for vulnerable and elderly people on a daily basis).

Then again, this person works in a new Welsh hospital that has come under a lot of scrutiny, and some of the tales they tell certainly adds credence to my idea that we are living post-collapse of the NHS (at least here in Wales).

Here we have an example of how stupid compulsory vaccinations are for the NHS

Now we all may think these staff refusing the jags are stupid but its still real and which is worse – a maternity unit with unjagged staff or no maternity unit?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/dec/20/england-hospital-units-may-close-as-staff-revolt-over-jab-mandate-says-nhs-leader

There will be no maternity staff when they’re all isolating due to Covid. Then again, maybe that’s still better than their stupidity resulting in the deaths of mothers and babies.

That story will be complete fiction so you don’t even get to the point of needing to consider the what’s worse question.

Does it really seem likely that medical professionals don’t see the value in a vaccine? Highly unlikely but not impossible.

Does it seem likely that there are 40 of these people with this unlikely view all working in the same location? Virtually impossible

Right – its an inconvenient truth so its must be made up?  unfortunately these people are real.

“If sufficient numbers of unvaccinated staff in a particular service in a particular location choose not to get vaccinated, the viability and/or safety of that service could be at risk.”

From that article. ” If” is doing a lot of the heavy lifting in that sentence to make the headline.

I’m not entirely sure how comfortable I am with mandatory vaccination, I accept it’s a morally dubious area.

But I’m pretty sure I know where I am with healthcare professionals deciding they know better than all the scientists and chief medical officers around the world and refusing to be jabbed without a valid medical reason. If they want to risk their jobs on a point of principle, I’m sorry, but good luck to them.

If they want to risk their jobs on a point of principle, I’m sorry, but good luck to them.

Even if that means closing services?  Seriously which is better – unvaccinated staff or no staff?

In blunt terms, I don’t want health professionals that are too stupid to understand the overall benefits of a vaccine programme to deliver my children.

Sounds harsh, but that is the reality.

Seriously which is better – unvaccinated staff or no staff?

Seriously, I don’t want to be treated by staff who think they know better than the scientists and chief medical experts. Whether it’s arrogance or ignorance, I don’t want someone that blinkered caring for me or my loved ones.

I want someone who can understand and follow the science. Because if they can’t follow it for their own care in the middle of a pandemic, I don’t trust them to follow it when dealing with my and my family.

Actually, that’s clarified it in my own head. It’s a trust issue.

, I don’t want health professionals that are too stupid to understand the overall benefits of a vaccine programme

Is this the benefits of the first two doses that are now of no benefit against omicron?

Do you believe that the first two doses are of no benefit?

So many of you would rather a service closed than stayed open with unvaccinated staff?

I agree its stupid and I agree these folk are probably not that good at their jobs – but this is an issue I said would happen and now it is.

Even if that means closing services? Seriously which is better – unvaccinated staff or no staff?

Fortunately it looks like the evidence is that is not a decision that will need to be made once a theoretical situation becomes reality.

Mrs C (until Jan) works in care sector in house recruitment but in Scotland. Talking to associates working in England the compulsory jabbing did the trick. All the resistance melted away once the options ran out. The number of staff no longer working in the care sector because of it can’t quite be counted on one hand but is vanishly small numbers in an industry that employs tens of thousands*. Employee poles also show a significant improvement in staff morale of those jabbed who had previously been uncomfortable working closely alongside unvaxed colleagues With many now saying they are now more likely than they would have been to stay in their roles longer term. Families of residents are also showing high satisfaction rating after the measures went live.

The conversation about the morals can still be had, but from a practical perspective it has worked – safer residents and happier family members and previously vaxxed employees.

Only caveat – social care has a massive staff retention problem and always has. 40% pa is common in most homes. So the staff employed 6 months ago only bears some similarity to now. Vacancy rates are still massive as they were before the vaccine requirement. Bizarrely there has been an upturn in applicants for unskilled jobs as, bless them, some applicants who are jabbed provably meet some of the job requirements.

Edit – oh and the unvaxxed have not been given non frontline roles in vast numbers – care sector work on too tight margins (and are money grabbing bastards):to get into that sort of charity compromise.

Yeah! I’m really finding it hard to believe 40 staff on the same unit are refusing to have the vaccine. I see your point TJ, to a certain extent, but struggling to believe this. I’m also amazed if it’s true that all 40 are still refusing to continue to put vulnerable patients at risk.

So what are these people going to do for a living once they resign? There are limited opportunities in the private sector. Its bluff on their part. Once the option is a vaccination or unemployment the vast majority will take the jab.

Seriously which is better – unvaccinated staff or no staff?

While I’m not a fan of compulsion, whoever’s running that unit (if there is indeed such a place) needs a bloody good talking to if all the staff in it are actually completely unvaccinated. That is shameful.  Which leads me to suspect it’s probably not true. I can’t get 6 GPs to agree on anything, I doubt there’s a unit in any hospital where 40 staff agree to this level of idiocy.

I doubt there’s a unit in any hospital where 40 staff agree to this level of idiocy.

Whereas I am sure there are many such units!

Its bluff on their part

I very much doubt it.  these are people who are mainly following fundamentalist religions I believe.  given the choice ( in their heads) of getting vaccinated and then being condemned to hell or losing their job which will they choose?

Not being vaccinated is not a rational decision so we cannot expect these people to behave rationally

@MoreCashThanDash

Actually, that’s clarified it in my own head. It’s a trust issue.

Put far more eloquently than myself, but yeah, EXACTLY this.

I very much doubt it

well, they’ll be losing their jobs, won’t they?

Is this the benefits of the first two doses that are now of no benefit against omicron

what, no benefit… says who…? Booster vaccines are a timing issue. The protection that any vaccine gives you dwindles with time. Call it a booster, third shot, MAGIC OMICRON SAVIOUR, whatever you want, but there’s not something magic in the booster the fights Omicron, it just strengthens your immune system against infection.

I know this slightly simplifies it for mRNA vs non-mRNA vaccines, but I fell keeping it simple here might be best for some people.

Put far more eloquently than myself, but yeah, EXACTLY this.

You phrased it how I was originally thinking it! 🤣

Whereas I am sure there are many such units!

93% vaccination up take by NHS staff. Seems unlikely you’d have one unit let alone many.

Not being vaccinated is not a rational decision so we cannot expect these people to behave rationally

But that to you only applies if it’s their religion. Interesting.

It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out. In some cases what you’ll get is the mandate to get vaccinated crashing head long in to religion as a protected status. How the courts sort that clusterf**k out who knows.

In terms of care workers our neighbours care home just lost 12 of it’s 26 staff due to not getting the vaccine. They are now using agency staff who are travelling between many homes. Given all permanent staff were doing LFTs every day and PCRs twice a week as mandated by the company and the agency staff aren’t; which was the greater risk, unvaccinated daily tested staff working in a single location or agency staff only required to test once a week and working in many locations?

well, they’ll be losing their jobs, won’t they?

and tbhen units closing leading tomore deaths?

Drac – its concentrated into hotspots not evenly distributed.

I cannot think of how to write this without coming over a bit racist but I’ll have a go

Vaccine refusal in healthcare workers is mainly in first generation African immigrants.  I suspect because of fundamentalist religious groups and their strong influence / control

These folk tend to get concentrated into areas both within services and within localities.  If you have a unit with a high concentration of such staff then you have a real issue.

To me this is the old ” beware of secondary effects”

Jon above outlines one clearly

the other being this could lead to unit closures.

But that to you only applies if it’s their religion. Interesting.

Where on earth did you get that from?

and tbhen units closing leading tomore deaths?

Having unvaccinated staff leading to death any better?

Which course of action creates less risk?   I get the moral position – I think its unutterably stupid not to have the jag.  what I am cautioning against is not seeing the unwanted secondary effects or dismissing them as meaningless.

Its absolutist v pragmatic