20mph in Wales…..

Even if that were true (it’s not), wouldn’t that be ok? Police need money don’t they?

I never understand why this is seen as a valid criticism. It is just an idiot tax after all.

The only way to disabuse people of this nonsense is to replace fines with driving bans.

Fines are a means of keeping the poorer sections of society in their place. A £60 slap is not going deter a rich person.

If only there was a way to avoid driving fines.

I think electric bikes should have their assistance limit raised to 20mph, that way there would be no reason for a motorist to overtake them in a 20mph zone.

The problem is then shared use paths. 20 is too fast for most of those

I think we’re too small a market for bike manufacturers to come up with different restrictions to the EU.

I’m sure there used to be guidance that you shouldn’t be on a shared use path if you’re doing more than 18mph, which frankly is achievable on the Hybrid of Doom with a bit of a negative gradient.

Fines are a means of keeping the poorer sections of society in their place. A £60 slap is not going deter a rich person.

In Finland fines are in proportion to your income.

It doesn’t have to be expensive. When they implemented it here they just put a 20mph vinyl wrap over every 30pmh sign. There was obviously some cost in labour and printing but they didn’t actually replace any signs.

£27m here in Wales – not chump-change: https://www.southwalesguardian.co.uk/news/23661719.welsh-government-spend-27m-changing-20mph-speed-limit-signs/

Looking at the general population in south wales a probably better use of the money to save more lives might be education on diet and exercise, the number of people here in South Wales who are grossly overweight and do nothing to maintain their health is very high, with loads of messages about mental health issues and support on social media apps for the area.

Especially crazy when you consider how much open-access land there is in South Wales and the valleys.

Looking at the general population in south wales a probably better use of the money to save more lives might be education on diet and exercise, the number of people here in South Wales who are grossly overweight and do nothing to maintain their health is very high, with loads of messages about mental health issues and support on social media apps for the area.

Especially crazy when you consider how much open-access land there is in South Wales and the valleys.

Well there’s two arguments there, one being that they’re not walking/cycling becasue the roads are too dangerous (and that is overwhelmingly the message that comes back from any survey about travel habits – lack of infrastructure / roads too busy/dangerous) – so if you at least begin to address that with lower speed limits, you’re getting somewhere to making it more convenient/attractive to walk and cycle.

There’s a whole different argument there about access to the great outdoors and who uses it – it is vastly, overwhelmingly white middle class people.

All sorts of attempts to get various other demographics “outdoors” and all sorts of studies as to why they don’t. And ultimately, you can only go so far with “education”.
“You should get outside and walk a bit cos you’re a fat git”. Great message and everyone goes “oh yeah but…” and then comes up with a whole load of reasons why they can’t or won’t.

You can educate them til the cows come home, and spend all that money on education but it’s not going to make the blindest bit of difference.

@gravedigger and the main thing people say is stopping them taking exercise or eg. commuting by bike is the danger posed speeding cars everywhere.

20mph limits help with that.

We’ve got to a place in the UK where people’s right to choose other forms of transport, their right to clean air, and their children’s right to play out is overridden by others’ right to drive wherever and however they please. None of this will change until we start to restrict traffic one way or other because over and over it’s been shown that carrot without stick doesn’t work.

The 20mph speed limits might actually be detrimental to them getting to somewhere to walk , providng another excuse to not go!

I am not talking about cycling here in the valleys anyway as there are too many uninsured youths in hotted up cars or motorcycles speeding and making the roads extremely dangerous – so I won’t touch the roads myself, even though there are some great ‘mountain’ roads and climbs.

A lot of the land is open access meaning that you can walk anywhere but not, interestly, cycle. And there are precious few bridleways and many of those aren’t really passable.

An upside is that there are more gravelled routes to provide access to the wind turbines, but some of these are closed off for access as well.

With all due respect, I think you’re missing the point here – it’s not about getting to somewhere to walk, it’s about helping people feel safe eg. walking the half-mile to school or the corner shop.

Over and over, the thing that puts people off the latter is speeding traffic.

I’m all for the speed limit changes and it will make a decent change to the quality of life for residents in such areas, unless that it is you want to get to anywhere in Wales at a speed beyond cart n horse pace.

Being a North Wales resident one of the things that annoys me are the 50mph pollution limits along with the carrot/stick attitude of plenty of stick but no carrots, when it comes to getting people out of their cars and onto public transport infra.

They have been put 50mph limits in place with no consideration for changes/upgrades in public transport infrastructure in the corridors along such routes, in fact they seem to be pushing people to use more cars visiting N.Wales creating even more congestion/pollution on those roads with pollution reduction targets.

Examples, allowing Avanti trains to  get away with running less services on the North Wales main line during the summer, when even the small local trains are totally rammed. Bidston/Wrexham line anytime a TfW Wales train breaks down on any other route they rob the trains of the B/W line,  investing in new (well refurbished) trains for the B/W line that manage to break down due to pollen ingestion!

We then get onto S.Wales where whenever there’s a massive sporting event in Cardiff, they decide to run reduced trains for the weekend.

Then there’s the huge South/North bias shown yet again earlier this year where they cancelled 14 out of 15 road improvement projects in N.Wales, but only 6 out of 12 in S.Wales, and they have basically washed their hands of any investment in speeding transport North to South, citing the green agenda.

I think they know they are in a bit of a mess cash wise with the costs of the Valleys transport upgrades, and they are now doing the usual politicians trick of passing the mess onto some future Gov.

Well, you don’t really need a stick for 50mph limits. It feels slow, but when you look at it rationally it’s really not any kind of disadvantage at all. And of course, better air quality is a significant carrot for everyone, particularly the people who live near the road.

People who moan about lower speed limits seem to struggle with the idea that they need to accept a trivial limit on their behaviour for a significant benefit for other people. Once we can fix that attitude, we will start to progress as a country. Mainly because it’s the right way to behave in a civilised society, but also because one day you will be the ‘other person’ that someone else’s behaviour affects.

they have basically washed their hands of any investment in speeding transport North to South, citing the green agenda.

There are already motorway links between N and S Wales. Are you seriously suggesting they plough a motorway right through the heart of some of the most beautiful and wild parts of Wales? That’s horrific to even think about.

Over and over, the thing that puts people off the latter is speeding traffic.

Maybe, but the 20mph is generally unenforceable over the entire road network, many people will just ignore it apart from around cameras ect. The problem speeders will still be speeding. Sorry I’m cynical about asking people about what would make them cycle more. 20mph speed limit, in reality for most people instead of definitely not cycling it’ll become probably not.

@oldenough If I’ve understood correctly the evidence shows that even without enforcement, peak speeds drop as instead of driving at 35, people drive at 25.

And ‘probably not’ is progress – even 5-10% reduction in short car journeys would make a spectacular difference to traffic levels.

20mph speed limit, in reality for most people instead of definitely not cycling it’ll become probably not.

A key reason for people not cycling is traffic being scary. Alternative routes don’t necessarily help that much because motorists don’t necessarily know they are there.

However 20mph traffic is much less scary than 30mph traffic, so that may well help. And some people might think ‘this is so slow I may as well cycle’

You do need to stick to the 50 limits with all of the ANPR cameras along the routes where they have implemented the limits due to pollution.

What Motorway is this linking North to South?

I’m suggesting in investing in better rail transport not more roads.

An example Aberyswyth – Cardiff on a weekday train can be somewhere between 4 and 6 hours, in a car about 3 hours, so what are people going to use? Noting that route will go along the M4 where they have got 50mph pollution limits in place, due to the traffic volumes. I’m saying there’s no coherent transport strategy in place beyond connecting the Valleys to Cardiff.

And some people might think ‘this is so slow I may as well cycle’

I’d like to think so but sadly I don’t think this will be true. I’m not anticipating any significant increase in Welsh cycling, it’ll be the same people but hopefully in a safer environment. Not sure on that even. I’m seeing loads more dangerous overtaking (cars passing other cars) in existing 20mph zones than I ever did with a 30mph limit

I’m suggesting in investing in better rail transport not more roads.

So you want to put a railway line through mid Wales instead?

I’m saying there’s no coherent transport strategy in place beyond connecting the Valleys to Cardiff.

Well there’s a North Wales strategy as well I think. But the problem is that linking North to South Wales is extremely difficult and sadly (or not) not useful to that many people, in reality.

There’s routes that were closed in the 60’s that could be looked at one being Aberyswyth to Camerthen, they’ve estimated at about £800million to re-open so that’s been given a big nope, even thou they are prepared to spend more than that on the SW Metro upgrade. It would also add resiliency into the routes North/South as well as allowing more freight from the ports on the coast.

I’m saying there’s a big bias to slowing things down to try and hit pollution targets, without addressing the root causes of the congestion/pollution i.e get cars off the roads.  Just putting more coaches/trains back on routes that can already cope with the extra volumes, would get cars off the roads.

May have been doing a steady 30 mph with a tail wind between Rhyl and Prestatyn this afternoon.  Certainly beat a few cars.

And should I be bombing down hills at 35mph in a 20 limit anyway?  Limits do apply to cyclists.

How, exactly, do you know how fast you’re going on a bike? Yes, I know you can get those little speedo/milometer gizmos, I had one once, which is how I knew I was doing 35mph down my road when I overtook a Fiesta with a bunch of youngsters in, to their surprise judging by their expressions as I went past, and I’ve managed 42mph on a main road, but both were downhill, on a bike with a triple front chainset.

Without such a device, and very few people use them, it’s impossible to know how fast you’re going. I’ve followed cars down a steep hill, and had to feather the brakes to stop from running into the back, because overtaking wasn’t a safe option, but I was freewheeling on a singlespeed and I’ve no idea how fast I was going, I do know I’ve gone faster down the same hill without cars in front, but I couldn’t hazard a guess as to how fast.

How, exactly, do you know how fast you’re going on a bike?

With a Garmin, or any other GPS head unit.

As these aren’t required, and bicycles aren’t engine powered, it’s a moot point about speed limits. It’s more relevant to talk about ‘wanton or furious driving’ applying.

The 20mph speed limits might actually be detrimental to them getting to somewhere to walk , providng another excuse to not go!

This isn’t about encouraging people to drive somewhere, it’s the opposite. It’s stopping them being trapped in their house/village/street as having a car is viewed the only safe way to get arround.

If the goal is public health then driving somewhere for a walk on a Sunday is a between a drop in the ocean and a big step backwards. What makes the difference is all the cumulative 10-15min at a time walking to the shops, school, work, sports center, pub etc rather than driving to the Spar for milk.

There’s routes that were closed in the 60’s that could be looked at one being Aberyswyth to Camerthen, they’ve estimated at about £800million to re-open so that’s been given a big nope, even thou they are prepared to spend more than that on the SW Metro upgrade.

Right. 16,000 people live in Aberystwyth, 13,000 in Carmarthen. And very few in between. The population of South-East Wales is about 1.5 million, nearly half that of the whole country.

I’m massively in favour of heavily subsidised rail travel, I really am – but most people don’t agree with me sadly. People would absolutely lose their shit if the WG spent nearly a billion connecting two small towns whilst the people of SE Wales struggle on shitty old trains or are crammed onto dense congested roads. Personally, I would dearly love to see a properly connected rail network in Wales, but we’re going to have to wait quite some time.

The 20mph speed limits might actually be detrimental to them getting to somewhere to walk , providng another excuse to not go!

Rubbish. “Oh it’s a lovely day, I really fancy a walk in the park, but it takes 2 mins longer to get there than it used to, so I’ll stay home”. Honestly don’t be ridiculous.

A lot of the land is open access meaning that you can walk anywhere but not, interestly, cycle. And there are precious few bridleways and many of those aren’t really passable.

Seriously? You talking about South East Wales, right? The Valleys? There are a lot of problems down here but land access is definitely not one of them! There are loads of bridleways, loads of forest, and absolutely no-one at all cares if you ride across the mountains on the trackways. It’s an absolutely brilliant place to live as an MTBer!

@molgrips “Limits do apply to cyclists”

No, they don’t, for the simple reason that bicycles are not legally required to carry a calibrated and sealed speedometer, so a cyclist cannot be expected to know how fast they’re travelling. Therefore the law cannot require them to obey speed limits.

Could also be written as the WG spent nearly a billion connecting some small towns whilst the people of N Wales struggle on shitty even older trains or are crammed onto even more congested roads.

Earlier today I spent some time ready the Senedd strategy on EV and charging points, 34 pages of what is in place now and what’s needed in 2030 etc. and they strategy to achieve it wishful thinking and a bit more of the stick, no incentives.

Their transport strategy can be summed up as delivering bread n circuses to the plebs that surround them (and vote for them) while the rest of the country they can just sweat as much as they can with minimal investment.

But despite the rants about them, I still agree with the 20mph limit coming into place.

Earlier today I spent some time ready the Senedd strategy on EV and charging points, 34 pages of what is in place now and what’s needed in 2030 etc. and they strategy to achieve it wishful thinking and a bit more of the stick, no incentives.

Sorry what? What stick? Lots of charging points going in all over the place. The number of connectors on the A470 up to Cardiff has now more than doubled since I went up there in spring. Ok so it was from a very low base, but it’s happening. I’m not sure where the ‘stick’ is in this scenario mind.

Could also be written as the WG spent nearly a billion connecting some small towns whilst the people of N Wales struggle on shitty even older trains or are crammed onto even more congested roads.

Not really. When money is limited, the transport investment goes where the people are. That said, there is a plan for North East Wales, some of which is under construction now apparently.

No, they don’t, for the simple reason that bicycles are not legally required to carry a calibrated and sealed speedometer

Oh.. yeah.. good point :)

They have predicted that by 2030 there need to be somewhere between 55,000 and 6o,ooo ish chargers of various types in Wales.

“Successful
action will rely on public and
private sector collaboration.
Mechanisms to facilitate this
collaborative delivery model will
be set out in the action plan.”

“Welsh Government will enable
the above through integrated
planning for energy and transport
(including the Low Carbon Delivery
Plan, and on-going Regional
Energy Planning), and improved
regulatory standards (including
amendments to building codes
regulations). The creation of a
national quality standard for
charging that reflects both quality
and sustainable outcomes could be
a reliable mechanism to drive an
improvement in industry standards.”

Regulatory standards, planning, standard = stick, where’s the incentives ? At most its this at present

“Welsh Government can create
favourable conditions for
economic and employment
opportunities to be captured in
Wales. The creation of a national
procurement framework could
support the above outcomes
through encouraging solutions that
deliver the most advantageous
outcomes for Wales. ”

Regulatory standards, planning, standard = stick, where’s the incentives ? At most its this at present

The incentive is 80p per kWh surely? This is between them and the companies, doesn’t really concern you does it? All you want, as a driver, is more charge points.

Oh yes there’s rail investment in NE Wales, I’ll take their main bullet points from their strategy

unlocking Chester station capacity to allow additional
services through to the North Wales coast

Yes this is going ahead, but see my earlier comment about Avanti cutting back over summer and the TfW trains being rammed

increased capacity to allow more services on the North
Wales Mainline

Pointless if the main operator turns around and says that they are running a reduced service over summer.

enhancements on Borderlands line to enable improved
regional connectivity and direct services into Liverpool
improved connectivity at the Shotton interchange between
the North Wales mainline and the Borderlands line to
provide enhanced rail services in support of our North
Wales Metro ambitions.

Aka the rolling stock that get knicked to fill other gaps elsewhere on TfW, and the new well refurbished TfL trains struggle with pollen in their engine filters, fires in older trains, resulting in a service that struggles to have an hourly train, often replaced by a bus service that due to the geography can mean hours added to the travel time.

Spring this year

Last month, the Wrexham Bidston Rail User Association (WBRUA) expressed significant concerns regarding the management and operation of the Wrexham-Bidston line by TfW and urged the Welsh Government to initiate an independent review. ‌​‌‌‌​‌‌‍‌​‌‌‌​‌​‍‌​‌‌‌​‌​

The WBRUA held a committee meeting on 24th March and unanimously agreed that TfW is incapable of delivering an acceptable service on the line. ‌​‌‌‌​‌‌‍‌​‌‌‌​‌​‍‌​‌‌‌​‌​

They believe Merseyrail would be better placed to provide a reliable service than TfW, which is “both South Wales based and focussed.” ‌​‌‌‌​‌‌‍‌​‌‌‌​‌​‍‌​‌‌‌​‌​

There’s only so much money. Blame Westminster for that.

… despite the fact crap public transport is holding the economy back and they’re so desperate to be seen as pro-growth.

 “Limits do apply to cyclists”

No, they don’t, for the simple reason that bicycles are not legally required to carry a calibrated and sealed speedometer, so a cyclist cannot be expected to know how fast they’re travelling. Therefore the law cannot require them to obey speed limits.

Aged 16,bombing it down a hill into town to get to my job on time (IKEA, Lakeside) I got stopped by a copper with a speed gun. He told me I hit 39mph and if I wanted to give it another go to see if I could go over 40mph. As I was already late for work I declined.

Therefore the law cannot require them to obey speed limits.

Your right no specific speed limits apply to cyclists, but you can be charged with dangerous cycling and excessive speed for a given situation can play a part in that.

Totally agree with you both on that, shame that the railways have been a licence to print money for their cronies.

Back on subject 20mph is going to be a godsend around here, just hope there’s some enforcement on it for a while. I’ll take my EV thoughts over to the on-topic for those.

oldenough
Free Member

Sorry I’m cynical about asking people about what would make them cycle more. 20mph speed limit, in reality for most people instead of definitely not cycling it’ll become probably not.

Sure, but for the probably nots it can become maybe nots and the maybe nots can become maybes. It’s not about the definitely nots.

Seriously? You talking about South East Wales, right? The Valleys? There are a lot of problems down here but land access is definitely not one of them! There are loads of bridleways, loads of forest, and absolutely no-one at all cares if you ride across the mountains on the trackways. It’s an absolutely brilliant place to live as an MTBer!

Go look at an OS map – check out the number of areas with an orangey-brown border, both pale green and yellow shaded.

These are open access lands, and “One fifth of Wales is mapped as ‘access land’ where the public have a right of access on foot.”, and not for cycling.

Then go and look for the number of marked bridleways, it is not very many. There might be many tracks you go down that look like bridleways, but if they are you are lucky.

I’ve also noticed that many of the OS footpaths don’t seem to map that well to reality – I end up using the satellite view mostly when out walking.

Remember this campaign – https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/trails-wales-what-happens-now

It didn’t happen, which sort of conflicts with Wales desire to increase tourism.

So how was everyone’s commute this morning?

I’m still waiting to see some independent evidence to support the claims of 20mph speed limits. As far as I can tell they are just a money making scheme. If the powers that be were interested in safety then widen footpaths. Stop cars parking on footpaths so pedestrians can use them as intended. The problem is that there is no roi on there so we will just make vehicles go slower and call it done