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My father is a classic case as to why conscription may not be effective as a’kick up the arse’ as many people seem to think.
He was conscripted into the REME via National Service, was sent to Korea and after months getting to the front line on a slow troop ship then a three day train/truck journey the first thing his new CO said to him was ‘I don’t want you, I want professionals’ and he and his fellow NS personnel were treated as second class people for the 14 months he was there. It has put him off all authority figures and particularly the military and passed that on to me.
It’s an interesting discussion. Do any of you think you would have been keen on an armistice with Germany after Dunkirk in the summer of 1940? Britain was on its own with only the commonwealth/empire for support. Russia had a peace pact with Germany and the USA was isolationist.
I reckon most folk here would have been keen on peace at that time. I probably would have been.
If the fight was growing food, making stuff in factories, making tea (we all know a good cup of tea is the answer to everything), or volunteering to look after people left behind, then yes. But I'm an injured 60 something and wouldn't be much use out in the fray.
Would I want to fight for the country that is my home, and has given me a life greater than 99.9% of all humans in history, yes.
Would I be of any use in a field with a rifle, no.
I'd hope I would have more use than as cannon fodder, but I guess so do most people.
And I assume in the modern era, walking down to the air force recruiters the morning your army draft papers arrive is no longer going to work...
last thing they want is conscripts
except the statement was from the head of the uk armed forces..
i do agree it would be pointless however. In any war with Russia, ground troops would be absolute cannon fodder. Way I see it, based on current Russian military capability, if they took on nato with conventional weapons they’d be annihilated in weeks. So they’d either back off with their tail between their legs, of start firing off nukes
either way, I can’t see how having more ground troops would help..either we win using far superior military technology, or everyone dies in a nuclear fireball.
Does Russia have many 'professional' soldiers left ? NATO has many more trained soldiers, why would they want a Joe Bloggs to join in.
Sure.
Not on the same side as the current government though. Conscription is perhaps the best chance at a revolution that we'll ever have.
So that would a be 8 hours arguing then attacking whoever TJ declared was the enemy at 9am?
Nope. We wouldn't attack till the next day in all likelihood as binners has gone to Greggs for "provisions", ours have gone to Aldi as there is a camping deal on, others have gone to 4 different pubs (they couldn't agree on a pub)... and the rest are debating a battle plan late into the night and what we are all having for breakfast.
The breakfast debate takes up most of the planning time.
What IHN said+1.
I was in the TA in the early 80s. I joined up for beer money. When the Falklands were invaded all sorts of ill-informed people started speculating wildly . I beagan to consider the possibilty that I might be called up and I would have gone.In the event there was no real likelihood of me being called up but it still made me think and I left the TA not long after.
Keyboard warrior is not the same as key worker
Some of us are able to multitask 🙂
Three Tabs open at once with an argument about Small boats/ULEZ/NHS funding going on each, while you shit post about Piers Morgan on 'X' with your phone? "you weren't there Man! You'll never understand..."
I think we all now recognise the thousand yard stare of those who've served in the trenches of the online culture war 🙂
Probably already been said by others but we'd all be vaporized by Mad Vlad before any of us set foot on the battlefield.
In the circumstance of this country being directly invaded in the way that Ukraine is, I wouldn’t need to be conscripted, I’d volunteer. I see it as no different than stopping someone breaking into your home, and there are many ways to contribute other than holding a gun.
except the statement was from the head of the uk armed forces.
Call me cynical, but I suspect there is a degree of Politics at play here. It's the kind of statement that is guaranteed to provoke this kind of conversation among the general populace and feed a headline or two.
Public awareness about what would actually be needed in terms actually fighting a real war is pretty low, and therefore raising defence spending as a voters priority is most likely the aim here.
Another oldie and not very goodie here....
But yes, if its required for the future of our (flawed) society and to protect my loved ones, I'd like to think I could overcome the mindnumbing horror/terror and try to do my bit. I'd sooner be dead in a ditch than live on my knees.
My kids are 17 and 20, so ripe for call up. Thats a far more worrying and contradictory mix of emotions.
Home Guard for the likes of us. Wooden rifles at the ready! 🙂
I know they seem like a joke now but they old guys in the home guard were the same guys who went from trench to trench, fighting hand to hand, clubs and bayonets* 25 years earlier.
They would also have been fighting to defend against a largely conscripted army. And after the first phase with very little equipment were very much armed with very real weapons. I believe wargaming suggests that the success a German invasion would have been questionable, with home turf and well organised plans in place.
* As an aside it's worth reading up on Arnold who played Godfrey he was injured numerous time in the trenches quite seriously, bayonet to the groin anyone?
My difficulty here is having three sons, aged 18, 21 and 22....
I do think if we are under thread there is a duty - and Russia is as big a threat as anyone faces. To surrender or bow to them would not create any security and safety, and in fact could be a fate worse than fighting directly.
I was going to start a similar thread titled "are you a coward" as I'm pretty sure I am, and the start of the war had me giving serious though how to ensure my son could dodge conscription, probably involve using life savings to go far away and wait it out. I'd certainly put myself forward if it would guarantee he didn't have to though.
I hope it's just posturing to say to the other side "we are serious about this" rather than a call to arms.
except the statement was from the head of the uk armed forces..
I think he is saying that to make a political point. The professional forces have shrunk year on year for decades and are arguably too small to engage effectively in something we thought was consigned to history - a large scale war in Europe. When I joined the army in 1980 it was configured to fight a Russia attack (as part of NATO) and was around 160,000 strong. It's now 80,000 and only likely to keep shrinking.
National Service and conscription are something old duffers bleat on about, but that nobody in the forces really wants. They would be a burden and a liability. What we need is sufficient numbers of motivated professional soldiers, sailors and airmen.
I joined at 16 and finished my reserve liability at 55. They've had their pound of flesh from me. But if they were desperate and could supply enough Voltarol and Ibuprofen, I could be a mountain bike dispatch rider or something.
Probably more inclined to fight for this country in the form of a civil war than represent it fighting in foreign lands to protect the profitability of the establishment.
Fighting for someones elses land. **** that.
probably involve using life savings to go far away and wait it out.
I seem to recall that someone in the 1930s, seeing another looming world war, did some lengthy analysis about the anticipated conflicts and countries etc, and determined the safest most out of the way place to sit out the upcoming war if you had the requisit funds was a small island in the pacific named Iwo Jima.
I'd join up before I was conscripted, that way I at least get a choice about what I'm doing, Moot though, as I'm old and past it.
Britain was on its own with only the commonwealth/empire for support.
So not on its own then really, as the Commonwealth/Empire was a good portion of the rest of the world.
Media frenzy for the new muppits in power Labour .. to influence a push to a bigger spending budget for the UK military . . Angela Rayner giving the stink eye to any oversea aggressor would be far me use than me with a big sharp pointy stick.
At 68 I'm way too old and of no use to anyone apparently 🙄🙄🙄
To keep people like this in power... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Scott%2C_10th_Duke_of_Buccleuch
They we still be there after a war 🙁
What tyres for advancing on the enemy?
something we thought was consigned to history – a large scale war in Europe. <br /><br />
The invasion of Ukraine has shown that this concept has been consigned to history. Putin has failed to win one war close to home, he won’t be marauding across Europe any time soon.
This country doesn’t need massive standing armed forces, despite what vested interests may say.
I do see young men driving around with Ukranian number plates and wonder how they justify to themselves not defending their home.
Many of those will be on leave from tank, infantry or artillery training in this country. The infantry are training in Thetford Forest close to Mundford. Many days there's rifle/small arms fire on the range and also house to house training in a nd around Bodney Camp. Larkhill will have the gunnery trainees and Bovington/Salisbury plain is training the tankies. Somewhere in the country there'll be fast jet training too.
At 68 I’m way too old and of no use to anyone apparently
Don't underestimate your use - someone has to clear the mines.
Never understood why we stopped National Service
Because wasting a year of everyone's life on stupid make-work, when we have a labour shortage already, is a completely idiotic affectation that only a terminally dim or paranoid country would think a sensible use of resources.
National Service and conscription are something old duffers bleat on about, but that nobody in the forces really wants.
It plays well to the Daily Wail brigade who love the thought of a bit of discipline for the Yoof of Today but who would shit their pants the second the conscription officer came knocking on their door.
Me, I'd be putting a pair of underpants on my head, two pencils up my nose and saying "wibble".
Fighting for someones elses land. **** that.
Someone else’s land? You’d wait till someone got to your front door then?
Seems like there’s an awful lot of people in this thread who like the rights and privileges of living in this country but want no responsibilities to go with them.
In the circumstance of this country being directly invaded in the way that Ukraine is, I wouldn’t need to be conscripted, I’d volunteer.
This seems massively unlikely - unless you really think the Scots are going to get all uppity and Jacobite again.
Seems like there’s an awful lot of people in this thread who like the rights and privileges of living in this country but want no responsibilities to go with them.
Yes thanks, sign me up.
Never understood why we stopped National Service – seems to work well in other Countries – would give certain sections of society a kick up the arse & a wake up call and also keep our defence forces topped-up if needed – especially if as it looks the next War (which hopefully won’t happen) will be fought on many fronts against many enemies.
You've never spoken to anyone conscripted post-WW2 I'd guess.
My Dad described it as an utter waste of his time, his pals time and the country's time.
IMO anyone who believes it would "give certain sections of society a kick up the arse" is probably someone who's slacked off in the past and really means it could've sorted them out when they were younger.
@Kryton57
Source please for the following:
The current prediction is a world war will occur within 5-8 years
This country doesn’t need massive standing armed forces, despite what vested interests may say.
We've never had a massive standing army, ever. Our armed forces has also never been smaller than now, is that safe?
I heard most people conscripted will actually end up in mid level IT or project management. There’s quite a lot of admin involved in waging war. Hopefully any future war ends up being a war of offensive memes rather than the old style physical effort.
"Considering that thanks to the amount of screws and plates in my ankle my max land speed is ‘turbo waddle’ I’d be utterly useless in this situation. That said, as mentioned above, if me going meant my son wouldn’t called up, I’d be there."
I'd be right behind you. You'd make a cracking shield.
Having met people who went to war in Bosnia and people who have fled Ukraine, I'd be on a flight to the in-laws in Australia long before conscription becomes a thing.
I’d be right behind you.
Officer #1: [repeating through megaphone] The one with the rifle shoots!
Officer #2: [handing out rifles] One out of two gets rifle.
Officer #1: The one without, follows him! When the one with the rifle gets killed, the one who is following picks up the rifle and shoots!
Can you imagine STW forumites forming a Dads Army platoon or such?
Especially if the bike companies got allowed to supply the gear.
30 rifles with 40 different standards.
"help who has a quick release magazine? I have some boost ones to swap?"
Would you fight for this country if conscripted?
If it meant that I could choose a Barret M82 and line up the entire ERG and associated hangers on then yeah, otherwise **** off