Wills, Trusts, LPOA etc

My brother just got a LPOA done which cost £1900 including c £400 filing fee and VAT

The cost above was for a law firm/practicing solicitor. I think LPOA needs a qualified solicitor to sign off so not something you can DIY, though the forms looked pretty straightforward to me. You could call your local family solicitor and ask them for a price 

I did both LPOAs for my parents, no way would I be paying £1900 for filling out four forms and getting a signature witnessed. It’s not that difficult to do it oneself and just pay the standard government charge of eighty quid’ish per lpoa.

 

I think LPOA needs a qualified solicitor to sign off so not something you can DIY, though the forms looked pretty straightforward to me.

 

Thats not correct.

yes he said the fee for LPOA was £80ish per form so that would be £320 just in registration costs for the two of us

 

nearly £2k via a solicitor seems alot to me, but he could have had complex requirements, whereas ours are about as simple as you can get

Yep, POA is all DIYable on the government website, so unless there is anything particularly complicated in your plans, no need to use solicitors.  Anyone independent can witness it.

It's coming up to Free Will month, charities will pay for your will in return for a posthumous donation.

My brother just got a LPOA done which cost £1900 including c £400 filing fee and VAT

£2795 seems a bit of a pisstake, LPOA cost £320, a fairly basic will, executor support for people who may not out-live you and would presumably only be used if you both died at the same time when your kids are young - possibly a rare scenario. Lifetime storage seems a bit pointless, presumably the OP has a drawer or a cupboard at home. 

Posted by: .dt78

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The kicker is by the time you add in all the services you are at £2795 for:

2 Wills 

2 will trusts

Lifetime storage & updates

LPOA (x4 as you need 2 per person)

executor support service - as our executors are our parents they could need help...

For all of that - it doesn't seem ridiculous.  The question is do you need all that.

Wills are sensible.  The costs people pay seem to vary, depending on complexity, who's doing it etc.  For 2 "mirrored" wills (ie. both the same with name swapped) £300 should certainly be possible. (Some will do it for free as part of a charity initiative to encourage you to include a donation).  I'm not sure what executor support service includes.  There's nothing to stop an executor paying for help (out of the estate) IF they actually need it.  Are they local to your parents?  At some point your parents will presumably no longer be the executors (and your kids will?) do they need the same help - will they be local to them?  This sort of advice is probably easier face to face IMHO.

Lifetime storage of the wills is unnecessary, if its anything more than a token charge you are being ripped off - give copy to your executors, keep a copy somewhere safe in the house with other financial docs.  Are they doing lifetime updates FOC?  Even if your affairs suddenly become really complex - say you get divorced, remarry, start a business, lend a lot of money to one of your kids etc.  And will they be there forever?  SO I would treat that with a pinch of salt.  

The "trusts" is a bit of a red flag to me.  I'm sceptical about them.  They aren't the go-to solution of your ordinary family solicitor dealing with simple affairs in my experience.  They are the domain of people doing IHT avoidance and now being (mis?)-sold for care cost avoidance.  Could you (or your attorney) still elect to liquidate the asset to pay for better quality care?

LPOA are surprisingly expensive to get drawn up - which is why I think the total cost is not ridiculous.  They've done a good sales job by saying "you need 4" though - as I assume they are actually not that different.  My inlaws recently got a quote (Scottish equivalents) which was ~£1300+vat.  They were horrified, I suggested an online service which is far cheaper - but they quickly got into "oh there's a lot of decisions here, which we hadn't thought about (who the attorneys are, if they act alone or together, if the same attorneys for welfare and finance, what if an attorney is no longer fit/willing to do it,  etc etc).  That's when it started to dawn on them that having someone professional to guide them through the questions might not be a bad idea.  

Did the Will writer mention if he gives a kick back to your IFA for the intro?  

I would phone your local solicitor (e.g. the one who dealt with your house purchase) see what they think you need from a quick call and see what they would charge.  

 

Posted by: Steve

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Yep, POA is all DIYable on the government website, so unless there is anything particularly complicated in your plans, no need to use solicitors.  Anyone independent can witness it.

It does require someone to certify you're doing this of your own free will.  That's not quite as simple as "anyone can be a witness" which is true - it does not need a solicitor (although I think it does in Scotland - or a doctor who is probably not keen!).  It can be DIY'd but I do wonder how many people that DIY have actually thought properly about the scenarios individually and how many just answer the questions the quickest way or copying their spouse without much thought.  Explaining the significance of the 20 page forms is what you are paying for, not typing in the boxes.  The OP may well be perfectly smart enough to that himself.

 

Hi

We had almost exactly the same set up as your self done last year total cost was approx £2600 plus another £320 for the registration of the LPAs so approx £1500 each. Which is about the going rate, my farther in law had the same done about 9 years ago and it was about the same price for him.

If you do want to get costs down then remove the LPAs from the package and do them yourself if you feel confident enough.

The reason we went with a solicitor for everything was convenience and the assurance that things were being done right.

I also did some research before hand and its about the going rate so wasn't too shocked by the price (it is still a lot of money though). Our solicitor was very good, 2 home visits each lasting about 1 hour and answering any other questions via email or telephone call.

 

Hmmmm, I would class myself as 'reasonably' smart, and I actually happen to have a degree in law so not complete clueless - I was taken a back by the overall cost.  But then again I am about the price of a pint in our local now....

 

The main benefit I suppose is he actually got my wife and I to sit down and answer some questions so we have a fighting chance of actually getting a will sorted.  If I was trying to DIY it, it just wouldn't happen.  

And the trust thing really does sound a like potential misselling.  I was left thinking if its this simple why isn't everyone doing it?  Have also read it can cause issue with remortgaging / moving for the remaining spouse, though he said this was a non issue

I'm thinking I've been upsold/missold.  I said to the missus I should be pleased this is sorted but I feel like I've been done.  Thats a sure sign somethings not quite right

Proof will be how easy it is to get the money back during the cooling off period I suppose re. legitamacy of the company

The chap did seem to have plenty of positive online reviews and feedback and asked us to pass on his details for further referrals.  I imagine the IFA did get a kick back, its how these things work, he's not going to do it for free is he?!

Lifetime storage was £390, or £39pa ongoing.  He said copies of wills are not valid and had a story about a couple that kept the original will at home, but as it had been damaged was not upheld.

The trust thing I won't comment on, other than to say that it's sad that people are such sociopaths when it comes to ensuring *their* children are advantaged rather than thinking of society. Hopefully you'll waste a shedload of money only to find the council does a "deprivation of assets" on you.

More helpfully (yes I can be helpful on occasion), you really don't want solicitors getting their sticky paws on the executor task. The executor(s) can also find one if and when they need them, no point booking in advance when they will quite likely have retired etc. We had to pay 240 quid (and waste time and effort) to get FiL's old retired solicitor to resign his post when we wanted to use a local (to us) firm. Also, *surely* you mean you are each other's executor albeit possibly with parents also listed for the case of second/simultaneous death.

PoA you can do yourself for 320 quid (80 * 4) but *please* think carefully and in particular list all attorneys "jointly and severally" unless you want to make the whole thing a useless shitshow by the time you try to use it. My parents' original solicitors ****ed up their PoAs, it was luckily spotted in time to redo when they moved to another firm.

Posted by: .dt78

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Hmmmm, I would class myself as 'reasonably' smart, and I actually happen to have a degree in law so not complete clueless -

ok then go take a look at the LPoA forms on the .gov.uk website - they should be comprehendable by you and having forced the conversation with your wife you will be in a better place than most to start filling them in (there will be about 80 pages in total for the 4 forms!).  That facilitates the further discussion with your wife - look he's charging us £2K for filling in these forms!  

 

The main benefit I suppose is he actually got my wife and I to sit down and answer some questions so we have a fighting chance of actually getting a will sorted.  If I was trying to DIY it, it just wouldn't happen. 

agreed, but if his business is based on hard sell its his own fault if he wastes his time with "free advice" when you cancel afterwards!.

I'm thinking I've been upsold/missold.  I said to the missus I should be pleased this is sorted but I feel like I've been done.  Thats a sure sign somethings not quite right

this is the reason I hate anyone like this coming to the house - it always feels like you are being sold to.  If the deal is great why do I need to sign up today - surely you'd leave it with me for us to digest and discuss without you there and then come back to you in a few days saying - great lets go ahead.

The chap did seem to have plenty of positive online reviews and feedback

although presumably none from clients who had come back from beyond the grave to confirm how everything worked exactly as hoped ;-).  He probably is legit though - but it doesn't mean he's not a salesman our to squeeze you for ££!   

I imagine the IFA did get a kick back, its how these things work, he's not going to do it for free is he?!

I wouldn't be surprised - but I'm sure one or both of them should tell you if this is the case!  It is of course possible he's just a reliable contact.  

Lifetime storage was £390, or £39pa ongoing.  He said copies of wills are not valid and had a story about a couple that kept the original will at home, but as it had been damaged was not upheld.

. Life is much simpler if you have the original will, but a genuine signed copy may be provable if there is a legit explanation what happened to the original (e.g. lost in the fire that killed you!) and its not being challenged by anyone.   If that becomes necessary your executors will almost certainly wish you spent the £390 BUT I expect most people do not pay for their will to be stored and it all works out fine.

 

Well that was a nice comment thecaptain,  similar to saying I hope you die before you can take your pension, or the steerer on your c2w bike snaps and you smash your teeth out.

There is nothing wrong or immoral about trying to reduce the tax you pay legitimately as long as it’s legal and above board, which is kind of what I am asking.  I don’t want to do anything illegal or wrong, but likewise I want as much of my hard earned (which I have already paid a good chunk of tax on when earned ) to go to my family.  As the first generation of my family to own a house and to go to uni I’d like to help my kids as much as I possibly can, from the way the country is going they are going to need every penny 

I’ve had a look at the LPOA forms they don’t seem challenging just long winded.

unless someone comes on otherwise i think I have been hard/upsold a bunch of unnecessary stuff and will cancel on Monday.

 

We did MIL's POA, and it wasn't difficult, just lots of checking. We did wills with a local solicitor for just a few hundred.

As for storage and copies, MIL's original will was destroyed because SIL didn't contact the solicitor storing the will when they said they were destroying files, so should have collected it. Fortunately, the copy was accepted.

If you're in a union, their legal service will do you a very cheap or even free will. Probably give you good advice on the trusts too. 

I’ve had a look at the LPOA forms they don’t seem challenging just long winded.

They're not difficult. We did ours to prove the point

You can save them when you get bored and come back later

I suggest that you stick with their example text for options that suit you, otherwise you get to pay again to make them usable

Get a quote from a specialist solicitor for wills, it won't be as bad as you think and you get the protection of a regulated and insured practice https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/topics/firm-accreditations/wills-and-inheritance-quality-scheme/

If you're in a union, their legal service will do you a very cheap or even free will. Probably give you good advice on the trusts too.

Charities and unions, etc are usually a very basic will, anything more will need paying for

Just a point on reserving future Solicitors time... My Parents left their property in trust. When the last survivor died, it was clear the wording of the trust was, errrm, suboptimal... We tried to contact the original Solicitors for clarification and help. They no longer existed so a dead end. You may find the Solicitors you've paid forward for future services has retired to the Maldives or some such which isn't particularly helpful. 

Posted by: .dt78

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trying to reduce the tax you pay legitimately

But it's not about tax, it's deliberately concealing your assets in order that you can pretend to be sufficiently destitute that other (mostly poorer) taxpayers will have to fund your care should you need it later in life, just so that your children can get some massive unearned windfall. I wonder how you feel about other benefit cheats?

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet but you can register a will yourself for £30
https://www.nationalwillregister.co.uk/register-a-will/

By all means have it drawn up by a solicitor... I'd even recommend it... Although maybe not the solicitor the OP is using!
Bit once it's all signed and witnessed you can register it yourself.

Also as above... The executor can hire a solicitor to administrate probate etc... That's exactly what I did.. Got a quote from a local firm and they just take their fees off the top line of the estate alongside all the other executor expense... Paying any outstanding utility bills, pension overpayments etc. If you think your executors might struggle in sure you could have a clause put in your will that they have to use a solicitor... But I'm not sure theres any advantage for you to do nominate a specific solicitor. Also if you make a solicitor your executor, and you want to remove them, they will have to renounce thier position which is a legal process and one that they will charge the estate for.

More helpfully (yes I can be helpful on occasion), you really don't want solicitors getting their sticky paws on the executor task. The executor(s) can also find one if and when they need them, no point booking in advance when they will quite likely have retired etc. We had to pay 240 quid (and waste time and effort) to get FiL's old retired solicitor to resign his post when we wanted to use a local (to us) firm. 

On this,

My mum passed recently, myself and her solicitor were named as joint executors.  Knowing my mum I suspect that the reason she'd set it up that way would have been to relieve the burden on me.

I looked into it and applying for probate was a piece of piss (in my case), I didn't need them.  But I couldn't just ignore them either, declaring executors is part of the process.  They wanted something like £1500 to process probate for me or, yes, a couple of hundred for them to sign a form (which I completed for them) to say they were relinquishing their involvement.

Over the last few years I've fostered a healthy dislike for solicitors, no other profession can take the piss quite like them and I've dealt with roofers.  Just last week I was charged over £40 to file a £20 indemnity policy.  I'm in the wrong job.

 

Speaking of solicitors, have the ones I engaged to deal with my friends estate messed up or is it HMRC?

As I've just received a demand for capital gains tax on the sale of my deceased friends house, surely that can't be right that cg has to be paid on a house that was his only one & he lived in from purchase to death?

Posted by: dickyboy

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Speaking of solicitors, have the ones I engaged to deal with my friends estate messed up or is it HMRC?

As I've just received a demand for capital gains tax on the sale of my deceased friends house, surely that can't be right that cg has to be paid on a house that was his only one & he lived in from purchase to death?

This might help:

https://www.moneyhelper.org.uk/en/family-and-care/death-and-bereavement/calculating-and-paying-tax-after-someone-dies

Unless the house sold for more than it was valued or estimated at at time of death, I shouldn't think theres any CGT to pay... just IHT if the estate is over a certain value before any expenses, allowable deductions etc.

If the house was owned my your frinds LTD.co or or it's a second home or some other complication it might be a consideration but 'normally' CGT isn't a thing for estates, if there's any tax to pay its usually inheritence tax, and only then on the amount over the threshold.

 

Might depend on who the beneficiary is too - are they 'family' or simply a faimily friend or whatever?

 

@mattyfez thanks, house sold last May after nearly a year of being on the market for less than probate valuation & some of iht has been repaid by HMRC as a result. I was executor & part beneficiary (most went to various charities, so iht was minimal in the end) just seems very odd that HMRC are coming after me for capital gains tax when it was the sale of my friends house. Gonna scan the letter & send it to solicitors to explain.

Posted by: dickyboy

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@mattyfez thanks, house sold last May after nearly a year of being on the market for less than probate valuation & some of iht has been repaid by HMRC as a result. I was executor & part beneficiary (most went to various charities, so iht was minimal in the end) just seems very odd that HMRC are coming after me for capital gains tax when it was the sale of my friends house. Gonna scan the letter & send it to solicitors to explain.

 

I'm not an expert, so do take advice from someone qualified, but if the house sold for less than it was valued at time of death (what it was valued at for probate purposes), (assuming the valuation was legit) the estate has actually made a capital loss there, rather than a gain...

 

...Assuming the house was by far the largest asset in the estate.

 

We had to pay CGT on some of my mother's assets after it took 2 years to sort out the estate… mainly due to the complexities of dealing with some trusts. I'd avoid going down the trust route.

Posted by: onewheelgood

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We had to pay CGT on some of my mother's assets after it took 2 years to sort out the estate… mainly due to the complexities of dealing with some trusts. I'd avoid going down the trust route.

 

Yeah if the house sells say 2 years after death, and sells for say 100k more than the two year old valuation, that is a capital gain, so the estate or beneficiary (depending on who now owns the house) might be liable for CGT on the 100k gain.

 

I’m defintely using the “cooling off period” mentioned several times as to why it was okay to pay up front.  Normally I’m pretty savvy with this sort of thing, but think I’ve been lead down the garden path because I just wanted to get it done and the guy was recommended to us.

And the captain, it is not about hiding assets,  it’s about my wife and I each owning 50% of our home, and instead of it passing 100% to the survivor, 50% goes to our kids, which is what we want.  That is not benefit fraud - it’s not even close.

@dt78 we looked into putting our house in trust due to having step* children but in the end realised that the restrictions on the remaining partner were too onerous and as mentioned above may not "protect" an asset from care costs anyway.

* know a few examples personally of step children being left out with not even sentimental stuff being passed on from their mum/dad

Lifetime storage *where*. My parents used a solicitor who retired. Her workload passed to another firm. That firm closed (think they went bust). All documents then end up in law society archive. It was a pain to get stuff from there (took ages) and I’m sure we don’t have everything (including know they got health lpoa done, but haven’t been sent them.  

My parents also did the trust thing. Unnecessarily since house value would have been below IHT thresholds anyway. Hadn’t considered the care fees. Thing but that actually makes sense. Didn’t affect sale/purchase of a house afterwards. 

it was written in dads will. Never managed to get any documentation on it (see above) but seems that’s not been an issue.