I have done love bait once when I caught a small fish and hoped for something bigger. I do agree it's not kind and have not done it since.
But let's be honest, no diets even vegan are kind because they all involve a a level of animal slaughter.
Mmm, “love bait”, that’s a whole new sport!
To elaborate- It seems logical doesn’t it: throw a bullet, arrow or hook into a living being or if you’re a lion, throw a handful or claws and some teeth into it and it will be ‘suffering’.
But in reality, anyone that’s had a horrific injury knows- you don’t actually feel it immediately.
I have previously observed myself trapped in a car with a broken pelvis, hip, ruptured bladder, punctured lung and a few other injuries and not only was I not aware of ‘pain’ but I was able to muster super human strength to attempt to free myself.
I also had the pleasure of watching a tractor loader crush my legs, breaking my fibula’s, in 2020. Again- I literally didn’t feel a thing.
But it’s a short lived effect. A gazelle that’s escaped a predator with open wounds is going to “suffer” more than the one eaten alive. Same applies to the fish caught but returned (not instantly dispatched) or the pheasant shot at but only wounded.
That’s my own personal moral boundary with shooting- follow up any wounded game as near instantly as possible to ensure an animal hasn’t passed through that ‘adrenaline’ window.
Fishing is a bit different as you don’t know what’s going to take your lure or bait.
So I could be fishing for trout but catch a perch and have to legally return it. Or fishing for a bass for the table but have to return one that’s undersized.
Even the shooting one is complicated. Anyone who has done their deer stalking certification will know- you are supposed to wait 15 mins before following up on a suspected bad shot. The logic being that the adrenaline will have subsided and the animal will be stiffening up, thus less likely to have the impetus to bolt on your approach and therefore allowing a more certain follow up shot.
I don’t personally follow that rule as our gamedealer only accepts head-shot deer so there’s no ‘wounded’ about it, but I have seen ‘dead’ deer run 150y into thick cover purely on adrenaline on heart and lung shots in the past.
I passed a couple of fisherman on the Union canal yesterday, despite my scepticism they had actually caught something and were clearly having a great time. But that might have been as much down to the doobies and Stella
They used to do a lot of night fishing where I used to live. This seemed to involve a camouflage tent, big comfy chair, a couple of fishing rods, a big bag of skunk and a case of Kronenburg
I suppose it’s like out Monday Night Pub Rides really. Technically we’re going out riding, but it’s only ever really a convoluted route to the pub
Middle-aged blokes doing middle-aged bloke stuff, innit? 😃
Yeah- mate & his chums used to go to one of those big fishing sites in France every year. They all fished regularly pre marriages & kids, but reduced once family life took over, so the wives were ok letting them have a trip once a year.
In reality it was a weekend of drinking but they knew that if they had said “We’re going out on the piss for a weekend in Fance” it would be a big no!
the wives were ok letting them have a trip once a year.
In reality it was a weekend of drinking but they knew that if they had said “We’re going out on the piss for a weekend in Fance” it would be a big no!
That's magnanimous of them.
I understand courtesy in a relationship and also sometimes saying you need to get a "pass out" is little more than a gag, I've made the same joke myself, but I've always found it odd that some grown adults feel the need to either lie to their partners or seek permission to spend time with friends. What you've got there is domestic abuse, reverse the sexes and see how it scans. "Yeah, I want to go away with the girls for the weekend but I'll have to check with my husband first to see whether I'm allowed."
The notion that the wives wouldn't be OK with their partners spending a couple of days with friends is outrageous behaviour.
The notion that the wives wouldn’t be OK with their partners spending a couple of days with friends is outrageous behaviour.
I sort of agree. But sometimes it's more than just time away that's a factor. Frivolous expenditure of potentially limited family income. Time away from other responsibilities whilst a partner holds the fort. Another weekend away with the lads when the other half hasn't had a break for yonks etc.
People dress it up as asking for permission, when sometimes they're taking the piss with their shared responsibilities. I don't get all the weekends away I'd like, but that's because Mrs Bloke needs some herself. #modernblokeuptheroad
I have done love bait once
Is that when you reuse the condom you caught from the canal?
I don’t personally follow that rule as our gamedealer only accepts head-shot deer so there’s no ‘wounded’ about it, but I have seen ‘dead’ deer run 150y into thick cover purely on adrenaline on heart and lung shots in the past.
The reason he only accepts that is in your post - Adrenaline. The body will be flooded by it and it seriously taints the meat to the point you can smell it on slaughtered animals.
Theres another reason known as 'blood splash'(Also known as frightened beef). Where the capillaries in the muscle burst causing little flecks of blood throughout, which as it cannot be drained out naturally causes premature spoiling of the meat.
It's one of the reasons cattle are stunned in the manner they are, stunning pen, all view etc is screened out.
Plenty of folk say this about cyclists.
Usually about the ones who wear skintight lycra shorts.
To answer the thread title, I think that some people enjoy the feeling. I get that some might find it a bit extreme, but with the right conditions I'm sure it can be fine.
The key is to start slowly, perhaps two, then three fingers before going the whole way.
How would organisms evolve strategies to make being eaten less unpleasant?
They wouldn’t. Primarily because it’s a bit tricky to pass on you genes once you’re in the process of being eaten. Also because any individuals that were less worried about being eaten would be less inclined to avoid being eaten.
Nah- it’s cost of processing. They don’t want to have to throw out a shoulder.
Adrenaline depends more on whether they saw you prior to the shot being taken.
OK, ignore that part then, focus on the dragging an animal round with a hook through its face part. Or possibly the using a live animal as bait part.
Apart from maggots and worms, I’m trying to think what live bait your average fisherman uses. Fishermen/women now use barbless hooks, and no longer use lead weights. I very seldom ever see rubbish left behind by those fishing, they’re pretty good at policing themselves - they’re certainly a lot more thoughtful than the majority of dog walkers, fishers don’t leave baggies full of dogshit on cyclepaths, footpaths and hung as little decorations of trees and bushes.
Having said that, those who fish canals can be full of themselves and really take the piss when they’re using those twelve foot poles, that they pull back right across the path, with no regard for other users; I had one do that right in front of me once and I rode straight over the pole, he’d left me so little time to react. I did express my regret for any damage I might have caused… /s
I do wonder if anyone has watched wildlife programmes, and seen a heron, an otter or an Osprey catching fish - there’s no subtlety, they eat them alive, still wriggling. I’ve seen an Osprey with a bream nearly as long as the bird, it flew close enough to me I could see the colour of the fish, and I watched it perch on top of a utility pole and start tearing chunks out of the fish while it was still flapping around. Having a hook through its lip is a slight discomfort by comparison!
They wouldn’t. Primarily because it’s a bit tricky to pass on you genes once you’re in the process of being eaten. Also because any individuals that were less worried about being eaten would be less inclined to avoid being eaten.
That was my point, but actually crosshair seems to be talking about only being a bit eaten and surviving, which is a fair point. I don't really think the fact that wild animals and us can get a shot of adrenaline is a good reason to be pro hunting though.
Putting the moral argument with regard to the cruelty aside, we often walk a 6 mile stretch of beach and the amount of fishing waste (line, weights, hooks and rags) that we pick up is extraordinary.
Adrenaline depends more on whether they saw you prior to the shot being taken.
I suppose in my experience of it it is similar due to animal hormone levels ,the study being between animals kept in the lairage and stunned individually, as opposed to killed in a group or in emergency situations from injury etc.
It was covered briefly in a 2 year course i did with the Glasgow veterinary department at Glasgow abattoir, whilst training in meat inspection.
But as to the question, is fishing cruel to the fish. Damn straight it is.
@A_A Well obviously a clean kill is the intent. But I’ve personally thought long and hard about the consequences of that not happening and am happy what I do is within the ‘rules’ Mother Nature has set out with her adrenaline insurance policy provided I never shoot shotguns without a dog etc etc.
Our entire food chain is assured against rodent ‘pollution’ from field to fork in a restaurant or sale in supermarket. Which in practice, means animals have been poisoned to death, choking on their own uncoagulated blood to provide us with clean food. Not to mention the unavoidable secondary poisoning of our raptors.
Therefore, unless folk are truly growing their own (turnips in winter anyone?)- I feel I’ve given animal welfare more consideration than most.
I see birds, fish and animals all the time with the scars and injuries from near-miss predation attempts- all worse than an anglers hook.
Sport/coarse Fishing is a little different I guess because the imperative isn’t a hungry predator.
But the flip side is money and impetus for conservation.
I was lucky enough to catch, tag and release a sailfish in the Indian Ocean out of Watamu in Kenya and what a truly amazing experience that was. Could I have given my cash to the local economy without the hooking part? Probably but I wouldn’t have felt the close connection with the sea, the area, the local fishing staff and the fish itself as I did that day. And I wouldn’t have been willing to spend as much money 🤣
Managed to snap my mate hooking his up 🎣
But I’ve personally thought long and hard about the consequences of that not happening and am happy what I do is within the ‘rules’ Mother Nature has set out with her adrenaline insurance policy provided I never shoot shotguns without a dog etc etc.
I am not against shooting, just don't do it myself.
For sure! I’m just trying to show that many people have given the welfare considerations more thought than other folk may think 👍🏻
For sure! I’m just trying to show that many people have given the welfare considerations more thought than other folk may think 👍🏻
For someone that hunts, I think that is highly commendable.
Certainly some of the paying customers who go stalking certainly are only there because they are rich barstards and don't think through what it is they are actually doing.
Or those who rip carrots roughly out their natural habitat. Shocking.
Fished a lot as a kid, done a bit of holiday spinning and fly fishing as an adult. It's cruel to hook fish and drag them out of the water whatever justification is used.
Birds are still regularly injured and killed by fishing debris. A swan that lives on the river by me recently had to be caught to remove fishing line it was entangled in.
Its still a seroius factor in water birds
If you jump on YouTube you can likely find footage of chimpanzees masturbating using a frog.
Yeah, we’ve all done that, accidentally like. This stuff just happens. Honest.
Certainly some of the paying customers who go stalking certainly are only there because they are rich barstards and don’t think through what it is they are actually doing.
I think that’s part of a professional stalker/ghillie/gamekeeper/loaders job though. To instill a sense of respect, ethics and appreciation of what’s actually happening- to interpret the situation if you like.
I’ve stood with hundreds of people as they’ve killed game and deer and I’m generally pretty impressed with how seriously they take it.
And the corporate/late comers are usually really receptive learners- more so than the stereotype often suggests
Fish probably have the worst death of any animals we eat.
I doubt fish even really have any kind of fear or suffering emotion do they?
We don't know that.
They wouldn’t. Primarily because it’s a bit tricky to pass on you genes once you’re in the process of being eaten.
But not after, there's plenty of male insects/arachnids that end up as the menu item after sex, then there's the pretty weird sexual parasitism of the Anglerfish; males are teeny in comparison to females, and essentially bury themselves into the female and act as a living sperm reservoir in exchange for being fed by the female host.
We don’t know that.
Fish will react to stimulus, but pain [in the way that humans experience it] requires a cognitive/consciousness function, and fish don't have that. So you can probably surmise that larger brained animals probably feel pain, it's pretty clear that things like mackerel probably don't.
can’t abide the damage fisherists do by leaving their fishing and non-fishing rubbish around and in the water. ****s
What an idiotic comment vs cyclists who never leave energy bar wrappers, inner tubes etc lobbed into the undergrowth on trails? Like every part of life, you get scummy ****s who have zero respect for the environment and people who revel in being outside and enjoying it. I ride bikes. I also fish (coarse fishing so no live baits, no whacking fish over the swede to eat etc). Whatever I'm doing I'm enjoying the outdoors. Luckily for the fish, I spend more time watching kingfishers swooping up and down the river etc than actually outwitting fish.
To the OP, I don't think using livebait to catch bigger fish and then throwing them onto the deck of a boat with a gaff (the big spike) is representative of "fishing" as a whole in the same way anything on Instagram is representative of anything much at all...
Fish will react to stimulus, but pain [in the way that humans experience it] requires a cognitive/consciousness function, and fish don’t have that.
I find this a curious concept - is it actually pain or the psychology / fear of pain that is the issue? Do fish have the concept or memory of pain which makes fish that have been caught before harder to catch again. IANA Angler but have heard fish learn to be suspicious, and I'm ruling out mummy fishes telling young fishes about baited hooks in the same way as my mum warned me to be careful with sharp things 'or you'll hurt yourself'.
If you have no memory afterwards - either because you have no memory, or bluntly because you're dead - does it matter? Short term it's unpleasant but longer term no harm done? I'm not scared of dying, I know it's going to happen. I don't want a painful death though because I know what pain feels like - it's the anticipation though, not the memory afterwards that scares me.
I was thinking on this recently. I have seen often enough on Emergency 999 and the like but my wife had to have a procedure recently that required her to have a sedative, and afterwards had a total blank of what had been done, but I'm lead to believe it was unpleasant / painful. What makes that acceptable ethically, when the process of killing has to be done to avoid pain and suffering? Both leave no lasting memory?
(not saying that makes painful slaughter OK, just saying i find it philosophically interesting)
Fish will react to stimulus, but pain [in the way that humans experience it] requires a cognitive/consciousness function, and fish don’t have that. So you can probably surmise that larger brained animals probably feel pain, it’s pretty clear that things like mackerel probably don’t.
Fish have sensitive nerves all along the side of their bodies and react to threats, vibrations in the water, temperature etc and they sense food types by feel so I'm so sure mackerel or roach, big carp or whatever, don't feel pain or a sort of fear. If not fear then a stress reaction from the hook and line or net. Some or all of that reaction may be instinct rather than brain process but even if so, we also have instinctive fear and a reaction to it. I can't see how fear/threat reaction and pain wouldn't be a basic brain response in any animal that has developed senses. Even a worm wriggles much more when it's skewered on a hook.
I used to spend loads of time fishing when I was younger, before I got into bikes. There was a time in my early-mid teens when bikes were a better way of getting outdoors and I did wonder if I should be disturbing the fish, I wasn't that comfortable with it anymore. I just stopped going and rode bikes more. Spending time by the water's edge was good, these days I'd rather sit there and read a book. Or get a metal detector : )
Catching to eat is fine I think, no problem with that. I'd rather do that than buy commercially caught fish in the supermarket, that's mostly an environmental disaster industry these days. Support your local fishermen and fish market if you have one.
Do fish have the concept or memory of pain which makes fish that have been caught before harder to catch again.
They do - the more a water is fished the harder it is to catch there. Carp and larger predatory fish in particular get more wary of baits, lures, movement on the bank etc. That would suggest memory and pain or stress perception.
Edit to add, ^ that's a generalisation and thinking about the number of fish in a lake compared to the number of catches made by anglers in total weekly, yearly etc - it must take time for this to happen or a water to become 'harder' for fishing. So it suggests a fish doesn't need to be caught many times for it to become wary, or it's down to instinct rather than a learning. Those 'monster carp' guys on TV seem to take a lot of care over careful hook and bait arrangement to avoid spooking the fish - partly they're gear heads as we all are in things like this, partly that carp have very sensitive moths and feelers there (pain point) and partly that some of those lakes are fished regularly for a fairly limited number of big carp, so prominent fish are known to have been caught a number of times. I don't know if you can apply carp logic to roach or mackerel and I doubt a mackerel ever gets caught twice, but if carp can feel pain or stress then learn and be wary, other fish are likely to have the ability to some extent.
Hmmm. But Orca chase seals around until they’re too tired to get away from the gnashing teeth, and then, mmm, delicious seal meal. You do realise that is how food works on this planet?
Orcas, and Dolphins are grade-A c***s. They're among the select few animals on the planet that will hunt for sport, including each other. Dolphins will guide infant orca away from the pod and then pin them down under water. Same with the whole wierd pregnant women and dolphins thing. They're not being nice, they're trying to push you into deep water to drown you and your unborn child.
Fish will react to stimulus, but pain [in the way that humans experience it] requires a cognitive/consciousness function, and fish don’t have that. So you can probably surmise that larger brained animals probably feel pain, it’s pretty clear that things like mackerel probably don’t.
Source? I've always assumed people believe this as fish don't have facial expressions. I can't believe that an animal could evolve to not be able to perceive pain or suffering. Otherwise they'd be killing themselves.
I can’t see how fear/threat reaction and pain wouldn’t be a basic brain response in any animal that has developed senses.
Those are different things. Will fish react to stimulus? Yes. But it doesn't know why it does that or what will happen to it if it doesn't. But fish don't have the higher functioning parts of a brain that can asses negative association with that stimulus or an emotional response to it, or translate sensations from stimulated nerves into 'a thing'
What an idiotic comment vs cyclists who never leave energy bar wrappers, inner tubes etc lobbed into the undergrowth on trails?
Nowhere near as idiotic as trying to defend it by having a pop at an unrelated activity.
I kill over 800 kg of fish,all predators,each working day ,but wouldn’t go angling for entertainment.
Haven’t eaten a herbivore for 6 years .
Orcas, and Dolphins are grade-A c***s. They’re among the select few animals on the planet that will hunt for sport, including each other.
Chimpanzees are nasty brutes too.
Crikey if you’re upset about fish wait till you find out we hunt poor people for sport.
is there a venn diagram between this thread, and the one where everyone loves whitehouse and mortimer?
For some reason, my Insta feed has started throwing up some fishing, specifically sea fishing content and it had me thinking.
the bigger question is why is your insta, "feeding" you this, but its not doing the same to everyone else here? Essentially you are being manipulated, for better or worse, by an algorithm created by Meta to make them money! My guess is there are two types of people pushing this content on the web - the "fishing industry suppliers (equipment sales, boat charter, engine sales, lures etc)" and the "animal welfare lobby". Whichever one is promoting to you, is doing so because you've given the impression you might be interested from other stuff you look at and so can be persuaded to interact with their post. Either its worked (it manipulated you to make this thread) or its backfired slightly (although probably someone reading this thinks - actually I should dust off my old rod, I used to enjoy that).
Fishing is a very broad church from trawlers dragging across the seabed, or sweeping up loads of unsellable bi-catch, to farmed fish living in "in humane" conditions, big game fishing (what you were probably describing), sea angling, river (coarse) fishing, fly fishing etc, spearfishing and hand diving for scallops/clams etc. With as many different techniques (each with their own horrors or not). What you described, live bait, dealing a fish in over a long time, leaving fish on deck to suffocate, etc is only one niche of fishing.
The one possible overlap between cyclists and fishing that might have "contaminated" your feed for no obvious reason is that Shimano are big in both fishing and cycling.
But fish don’t have the higher functioning parts of a brain that can asses negative association with that stimulus or an emotional response to it, or translate sensations from stimulated nerves into ‘a thing’
No, I'm sure you're right. The difference between nerve reaction and brain response. I doubt there's a sense of dread linked to pain like a human or a dog can learn (I say doubt as don't know about biology to say either way).
If you subjected a fish to threat or environmental stress over a long period it'd have some negative effects, so I'd also expect injury or threat to register and have an effect at some level. Is the effect purely a reaction or is there more to it in the animals experience? If animals seek food and shelter and a form of comfort (temps, environment) then I'd think that's a form of registering positive vs negative, however instinctive it is, and what we're talking about as 'pain' here is a negative state, something that goes against survival instincts. The Q is about our definition/perception of pain vs a perhaps 'instinctive stress' in a simpler animal brain and how simple a fish brain is compared to a dog or bear. I'm inclined to think that 'pain' would be there as well as some amount of learning/habit because without them we're saying that a simpler animal is no different to an AI program with the need to eat and reproduce. Maybe they're not, on a purely biological level.
It's got me thinking anyway. Maybe I'm mixing this with a more buddhist 'do no harm' way of thinking that is just about respecting life generally. And since I eat meat and fish from shops* .. I'm in no place to say whether people should go fishing or not.
*far less these days, partly because of all this and awareness of what larger-scale farming and fishing can involve.
If you have no memory afterwards
I'm sure I read somewhere that the long-established idea that goldfish have a memory of several seconds is a complete myth.
is there a venn diagram between this thread, and the one where everyone loves whitehouse and mortimer?
There's certainly a crossover between this one and threads about stuff like dogs. Fairly sensible discussion on the whole from both sides of the debate, interspersed with the occasional massively defensive tirade bookended with "and I'm a dog owner and..." well no shit, we didn't see that plot twist coming at all.
If after all these millions of years of evolution, fish haven't got the brains to learn how to look cute and fwuffy then frankly they deserve everything they get