At the moment, yes. There was some noise about this "SNP wagging Labour" but there was some independent post-election research discounting that. In any case, Scottish MPs have never been able to outvote English MPs in Westminster, so the English always get the laws and policies they vote for.wrecker - Member - Block User - Quote
Completely untrue though isn't it scotroutes?
Ben raises the idea that an independent Scotland could somehow "inspire" disenfranchised English voters but then we're back to the "who will vote for Corbyn" discussion; either there's an army of non-voters waiting for the right party or the electorate just aren't interested in those sorts of policies.
TBH, I'm probably too far removed to make sensible attempt at discerning which is true.
so the English always get the laws and policies they vote for.
Not always. Didn't Labour have to rely on their Scottish MP's to impose tuition fees on England?
[quote=epicsteve ]
Not always. Didn't Labour have to rely on their Scottish MP's to impose tuition fees on England?If only the English Labour MPs had voted against it eh? 😆so the English always get the laws and policies they vote for.
either there's an army of non-voters waiting for the right party or the electorate just aren't interested in those sorts of policies
Which gets us back to discussions of whether the English electorate is more right-wing than the Scottish electorate.
Really, though, it's still the same fundamental problem that the only parties that are electable under the Westminster system seem to be right-of-centre ones.
At the moment, yes.
Can you see it changing?
[quote=wrecker ]
Can you see it changing?At the moment, yes.
Nothing is permanent. Scotland used to vote Tory. I think it's inevitable that the SNP vote will drop. How far remains to be seen. THM made a point earlier that politicians don't actually have as much control as they might lead us to believe (hence any mention of "once in a lifetime/generation referendums being foolish). We are already seeing a slight Tory revival in Scotland, they could even become the Holyrood opposition. I also think that some of the smaller pro-indy parties could start to swell their numbers as folk who have been voting SNP switch.
Really, though, it's still the same fundamental problem that the only parties that are electable under the Westminster system seem to be right-of-centre ones.
It's not a fundamental problem, it's what people want, that's why they vote for them. Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it a problem.
It's not a fundamental problem, it's what people want, that's why they vote for them. Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it a problem.
It's not what people want. It's not even what 50% of people want. It's what about 20% of people want. That's the problem with Westminster's FPTP voting system, it allows one party to get complete control of government when only a small minority of people vote for them.
It works the other way too - twice as many people voted UKIP as voted SNP in the last Westminster election, the SNP got 56 MPs, UKIP got 1. No matter how much you dislike UKIP, that's not fair or representative either.
[quote=molgrips ]You can't flounce out just because the vote doesn't go your way for ****'s sake. If everyone did that the country would disintegrate.This is the [i]"staying together for the sake of the children"[/i] argument - the one that rules out self-determination.
Once we have a free and independent Yorkshire, I'll be a patriotic as they come. 🙂
I would be genuinely interested in some sober analysis of the Labour vote in Scotland as the idea that the SNP are left of centre and/or anti-austerity is laughable IMO and in reality.
Was it (as is sometimes portrayed) merely (faux or otherwise) outrage that they sided with those nasty Tories in the indie debate or was it really about the policy choices - ok Labour's two leaders may have played a part...
...links? (not WoS please)
dragon 😀
It's what about 20% of people want.
37-odd% of voters, with the next in at 30-odd% so it is what the majority want (non voters don't count). I'm not sure how else you could do it?
I would be genuinely interested in some sober analysis of the Labour vote in Scotland as the idea that the SNP are left of centre and/or anti-austerity is laughable IMO and in reality.
I think people Scotland never bought into the New Labour idea - it was always about old Labour, standing up for the workers. There's perhaps still space in Scotland for a Labour party like that, though they'll have to fight with the Greens, SSP, RISE etc for that part of the electorate. And the SNP.
I'm not sure how they can detoxify themselves, though - I'm inclined to think it could only happen with independence, either Scottish independence, or Scottish Labour becoming a completely separate party to Labour.
Polling in Scotland shows people think Labour are just like the Tories, just less competent. It'll take a generation to fix that at least.
37-odd% of voters, with the next in at 30-odd% so it is what the majority want (non voters don't count). I'm not sure how else you could do it?
With a system where 37% of voters gets you 37% of MPs? In other words, a parliament that represents what people actually vote for?
So who governs?
It's a coalition.
Northwind - Member
Can't speak for Wales but Scotland's pretty good, that's why. Always seems weird to me that folks elsewhere are so quick to knock the place they were born. "This country's gone to the dogs" "We'll make it great again". [b]Britain's a great place to live, we're lucky, celebrate it![/b]
This was the first post after the OP's. Could we not have just ended it there??
Could we not have just ended it there??
You must be new here 😀
It's a coalition.
😯
Works okay in many other countries.
I think people Scotland never bought into the New Labour idea - it was always about old Labour, standing up for the workers.
Wow people in Scotland [i]all[/i] really care about the workers huh? 🙄
Sorry but it's this kind of mythologising/generalising that really winds me up.
We are already seeing a slight Tory revival in Scotland
Anecdotal but... After the referendum I was surprised by a number of NHS staff I know quite well turning to the Scottish Tories, and we're talking joining not just voting.
Labour has died up here for a number of reasons,the ref was just one.
1)As stated, we prefer our Labour party more Red Clydeside that Oasis at no 10.
2)The leadership...'nuff said, Murphy was the worst person they could have chosen,he makes Kezia look like a genius.
3)She isn't.
4)Labour at local council level has had far too many scandals to not be considered tainted.
5)The Tories,Westminster style ARE hated up here. The better together campaign was negative and Labour are linked to it in people's minds,certainly in the short term.
6) Corbyn has made it perfectly clear Scottish Labour answers to Westminster,that was "unhelpful" to Kez.
Wow people in Scotland all really care about the workers huh?Sorry but it's this kind of mythologising/generalising that really winds me up.
I'm not sure why you're getting wound up, it's only an online discussion - but whatever, I'm just giving my view based on people I know here in one of the poorer (and previously most staunchly Labour) areas of Glasgow.
Corbyn has made it perfectly clear Scottish Labour answers to Westminster,that was "unhelpful" to Kez.
"You'll do what yer told Kez!"
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I'm just giving my view based on people I know here in one of the poorer (and previously most staunchly Labour) areas of Glasgow.
So not really representative of the whole then. You should have written[i] I think people [s]Scotland[/s] [b]a poor bit of Glasgow[/b] never bought into the New Labour idea[/i]
Which is a fair enough view for them to hold, but doesn't represent Scotland as a whole.
I was extrapolating. Not unreasonably, I thought. But whatever.
Thanks for the efforts Ben - I got the meaning 😉
If Sturgeon adopts the Stooopid Merkel lifestyle as spinster you Scots got a problem. Fact!
No sure? Look around ...
athgray
In terms of UKIP/SNP I do think that they are to an extent fighting over the same ground.
epicsteve
Bollocks.
Enlightening
Thats a few pages so far of people supporting indy with a poor grasp of UK ethnic demographics, a lack of understanding of the recent history of Scotlands largest city, and a feeling of being hard done by due to Casualty's portrayal of Scots as drunks. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
There are not an insignificant number people in Scotland that support indy and who are NO fans of immigration and are generally pretty racist or xenophobic. This is by no means everyone, but neither do I think everyone who supports UKIP is a raving right winger.
These people in Scotland IMO put indy first and the other EU and immigration considerations on the back burner.
The so called white van man exists in quantity in Scotland, he may agree with a lot of UKIP but deny it. He probably votes for the SNP. That is why I am dubious of statistics that say a rise in UKIP must mean England is becoming more xenophobic.
If Brexit occurs I reckon Scotland will be independent in 5 years after a clamour that it was against our wishes. I would not be surprised if following this Scotland goes luke warm on EU membership, especially if McWhite van man does not want to see Poles & p**ki's taking his job.
The SNP have a few options, do they move to the right to gather this vote, or will we see a SIP come to the fore.
All I am simply is don't think all UKIP voters are nutters and all SNP supporters display the vitrue of tolerance and diversity.
It is funny to hear people say how little power Scotland has, presumably right now these people would like to be negotiating a currency union with a neighbour that will this year be making a huge constitutional decision. A decision that will affect Scotland and financial ties whilst having absolutely no say in the matter. Does not sound very powerful unless SNP entitlement suggests an independent Scotland should have a say in rUK referendum's.
A currency union wasn't on the table, all the party leaders were against the idea, the BofE said no & it was an extremely unpopular idea to the rUK population. So post Indy Scotland would have been sorting out her own financial affairs.
I was extrapolating. Not unreasonably, I thought. But whatever.
If I extrapolate from where I live and the people I hang out with then most people in England are Green-voting lefty middle-class mountain bikers who work in the media/creative arts. I could extrapolate from seeing some Rangers fans in Glasgow about Scottish people, would that be helpful?
This is the thing you seem to fail to grasp - you have this rosy idealised notion of Scottish = good, and a generalised negative English = bad that comes across in most of what you post on this issue. So much confirmation bias going completely unquestioned. I support Scotland's right to self-determination if that's what it wants, but I despair of some of the arguments used to justify it.
There's a state of permanent outrage about how awful the No campaign and biased the UK press is (which is true), but seemingly almost no attempt at self-reflection/criticism on the other side. In fact any attempt at doing that is sometimes angrily dismissed as being un-patriotic/brainwashed etc.
And here is my problem with patriotism/nationalism, it makes otherwise sensible people start doing this kind of thing. In very broad general terms, I think it's fair to say that Scottish people lean towards a more liberal viewpoint than English people - that's about as far as you can take it.
Eg
YouGov questioned 2235 people in Scotland and a further 2027 in England and Wales on behalf of the Oxford University-based research body.They found 58% of Scots wanted immigration cut, compared with 75% of people in the rest of the UK.
So, it's a significant but not massive difference - but still according the poll most people in Scotland want to see immigration cut.
athgray
In terms of UKIP/SNP I do think that they are to an extent fighting over the same ground.epicsteve
Bollocks.Enlightening
So it is ok for you to talk about indy supporters spouting pish...your words...but not for anybody else to suggest you might be? Good effort trying to explain that ukip supporters would be voting SNP,based on nothing but your opinion.
UKIP and SNP are single policy parties, with exactly the same single policy - leaving the union. How can you keep a straight face and suggest they're different?
And here is my problem with patriotism/nationalism, it makes otherwise sensible people start doing this kind of thing.
bit like a religion based on a mythical birthplace of a deity then.
I support Scotland's right to self-determination if that's what it wants, [b]but I despair of some of the arguments used to justify it.[/b]There's a state of permanent outrage about how awful the No campaign and biased the UK press is (which is true), but seemingly almost no attempt at self-reflection/criticism on the other side. In fact any attempt at doing that is sometimes angrily dismissed as being un-patriotic/brainwashed etc.
Well said sir!
Oh balls THM agrees with me! Ignore everything I just said please. 🙂
😀
grum - at least you haven't reached the desperation of roping in chewkw to support your argument 🙂
Oh, a bit below the belt.
Poor old chewkw takes some flak.....
5thElefant - MemberUKIP and SNP are single policy parties, with exactly the same single policy - leaving the union. How can you keep a straight face and suggest they're different?
Obvious troll etc...
Obvious troll etc...
Really? I thought I was stating the obvious.
Poor old chewkw takes some flak.....
I find his posts completely unreadable and/or meaningless, so I don't bother generally.
This is quite interesting IMO:
http://www.wealthynation.org/whatever-happened-to-tory-scotland/
Alex Massie says the Tory problem is simple. There is, he says, no right wing party in Europe that is not a patriotic party, and the Tories are not seen, in Scotland, as a patriotic party. As every writer in this volume seems to agree, including the Conservative contributors, the Scottish Tories messed up over Scottish identity and by opposing devolution, and they are suffering still. Now, of course the Tories are a patriotic party, it is just that they are stuck with British patriotism at a time when Scots just do not feel very British any more.
[quote=grum ]Poor old chewkw takes some flak.....
I find his posts completely unreadable and/or meaningless, so I don't bother generally.Blocked here. I just wish folk would stop quoting bits in their posts. Mind you, I appreciate that some of them must be proud of doing their bit for Care in the Community.