[Closed] when is an engineer not an engineer?

Anyone who walks into a bike shop and says "I'm an engineer" never is.

A proper engineer would have designed safety and braking systems which wouldn't rely on one tired train driver applying the brakes properly.

Who knows what really happened - all the evidence has been melted....

to be fair to the engineer - he'd left the engine running to keep the air brakes on and some firefighters had turned it off when fighting an earlier fire at the depot.

A person is a person, no matter what their job title. A certificate doesn't convey infallibility. Unless you're a certified pope.

Engineer has more than one meaning in the case of this guy it's someone in control of an engine.

A certificate doesn't convey infallibility. Unless you're a certified pope.

someone in control of an engine

The word Engineer comes from the french: l'ingénieur. Literally someone who is ingenius, ie designs things like engines. Hence the word "engine"

The word Engineer comes from the french: l'ingénieur. Literally someone who is ingenius, ie designs things, thinks thing through.

The meaning of words can change.

Engineer has more than one meaning in the case of this guy it's someone in control of an engine.

This is correct, and has been for a long time in the US.

I thought Engineer was common useage in US and Canada meaning locomotive driver

Read this this morning. Am I alone in being a little concerned that an individual can be castigated so publicly by the CEO of a company so soon after the event!? I don't believe a thorough investigation into the incident can be concluded so quickly.
And, as already mentioned here, if the only system control stopping the train is a brake applied by the driver, then it's a shit system

you'll be telling me that a fireman is someone who keeps the boiler going on steam trains and doesn't attempt to extinguish the flames next!

Tricky cove, johnny language.

Not quite, but certainly in the states, if you're the "engineer" responsible for the safety system, it fails and people die, then you go to jail.

totally. still a human though. Regardless of training or legislation or certification you don't become robot.

This is correct, and has been for a long time in the US.

My mistake then. Sceptics getting it wrong then (IMO). 🙁

Am I alone in being a little concerned that an individual can be castigated so publicly by the CEO of a company so soon after the event!?

I'm an Engineer* and so is my wife!

*Not strictly true as she's chartered and I'm not so I'm only pretending really!!

This is correct, and has been for a long time [s]in the US.[/s]

The oxford english dictionary states as much. There are attempts to hijack the word "engineer" to mean designer. It is not the case and never has been. You certainly don't need to be chartered to be a engineer.

He applied eleven brakes and that wasn't enough?

Jesus Harold Christ on a pogo stick, how many brakes does a train have?

And, as already mentioned here, if the only system control stopping the train is a brake applied by the driver, then it's a shit system

so you never drive or travel in a car or bus or coach then.

To be pedantic , the Brake is the brake applied to the whole train,by the driver, or by the train seperating ,eg a broken brake pipe and seperate Hand operatedbrakes work on each axle or bogie and are applied by the driver or train manager/guard.

Jesus Harold Christ on a pogo stick, how many brakes does a train have?

One on each of the 74 wagons.

The oxford english dictionary states as much. There are attempts to hijack the word "engineer" to mean designer. It is not the case and never has been. You certainly don't need to be chartered to be a engineer.

You certainly don't you can use the word 'engineer' to describe the bloke who refills the coke vending machines in the foyer.

Well Trigger was an environmental engineer 😀

I was sure the answer to the title question was going to mention "software engineer" 😕

I guess they're looking at the possibility that the engineer didn't apply the full amount of hand brakes but rather just a few in combination with the air brakes. When the air brakes were shutdown by the fire department the train rolled away.

You certainly don't need to be chartered to be a engineer.

Which in effect is my complaint.
I'm an engineer (you may have guessed) 4 years hard work at Uni for a Masters degree, subsequent 13 years in industry, designing some pretty big, complex and impressive equipment . I'm finally getting my charted application sorted.

Yet to the average bloke on the street, I could just be a train driver, or someone who fills coke vending machines.

[i]Yet to the average bloke on the street, I could just be a train driver, or someone who fills coke vending machines. [/i]

does it matter?

You know what you do, people who work with you understand the value of your qualifications and experience. Does some bloke in a pub's view matter?

[edit] to me an engineer is someone who physically builds stuff like steam trains or something. Machining stuff to designs, assembling, fixing. Not 'just' doing a bit of work with CAD software...

So?
The term engineer is not and never has been the preserve of designers.
If designers egos are so fragile that they need a term just so that they can feel special and recognised, it should be.....Designer!
Let engineers be engineers.

Office water dispenser breaks, phone company with service contract, they say they're sending an "engineer" round to take a look at it.

Not an engineer, just a guy in a van.

Well 'you' picked a name that was already in use for a different meaning so it will be very difficult to get a protected title.

When did Plumbers start getting called heating engineers? I've nothing against plumbers, but surely the guy that designed the boiler is the heating engineer and the plumber is a heating fitter.

wwaswas - Member

Tricky cove, johnny language.

A very fine sentence, sir.

So?
The term engineer is not and never has been the preserve of designers.
If designers egos are so fragile that they need a term just so that they can feel special and recognised, it should be.....Designer!
Let engineers be engineers.

Design engineer?

Plumber is a completely different job to heating engineer.

Heating engineer = deluxe Plumber 🙂

thekingisdead - Member

Read this this morning. Am I alone in being a little concerned that an individual can be castigated so publicly by the CEO of a company so soon after the event!? I don't believe a thorough investigation into the incident can be concluded so quickly.

Quite right.

[i]I'm an engineer ... I'm finally getting my charted application sorted.[/i]

So actually, by the definition that you want to apply, you're not. Yet. 🙂

Not 'just' doing a bit of work with CAD software...

That would be a designer/draughtsman, depending on how much autonomy is given.

The engineer is the person behind the design, who's done the required calculations, be it mechanical strength, thermal efficieny, or cost and production time or whatever to make sure whatever it is will work correctly for the given situation.

an engineer is someone who physically builds stuff like steam trains or something. Machining stuff to designs, assembling, fixing

So actually, by the definition that you want to apply, you're not. Yet

[i]they're not engineers[/i]

I think I was making the point that the word means different things to different people. I've always viewed it as a 'hands on' role - mad professor in a workshop or man with lots of machines in a big shed type stuff.

It doesn't mean that what you do has less value just that it's not like it's a term that deserves protection in law to apply only to people who use a slide rule on a daily basis and never actually touch the stuff they do the calculations for.

(note: this is all slightly tongue in cheek, I realise that a doing 'bit of CAD' does not a mechanical (or whatever) engineer make).

Definition of engineer
noun

1a person who [b]designs, builds, or maintains engines, machines, or structures.[/b]
a person qualified in a branch of engineering, especially as a professional:an aeronautical engineer

2a person who controls an engine, especially on an aircraft or ship.
North American a train driver.

3a skilful contriver or originator of something:the prime engineer of the approach

Design, work on, build or maintain machines? You're an engineer. You do not need a degree or a chartership. End of story.

project - Member

And, as already mentioned here, if the only system control stopping the train is a brake applied by the driver, then it's a shit system

so you never drive or travel in a car or bus or coach then.

Obviously I do, but the level of safety controls generally reflect the levels of risk. And no matter I hard I try to drive like a d*ck, the chance of me doing as much damage as a freight train carrying thousands of litres of oil are slim.

I will assume you are aware of (P)FMEA's?
I'm wondering if "driver forgets to apply brake" was included when they did (?) the FMEA on this system?!?

hekingisdead - Member
Read this this morning. Am I alone in being a little concerned that an individual can be castigated so publicly by the CEO of a company so soon after the event!? I don't believe a thorough investigation into the incident can be concluded so quickly.

Quite right.

These were my first thoughts as soon as I read the article, it seems pretty poor form and not well managed at all. Surely until they know 100% what the fault was they should just keep schtum. Instead of saying 'we think it was the engineer' and then going on to imply he's a liar as well.

Wrecker - you need to read the second half of definition 1 you posted. The bit about qualified and professional.

Personally if I want something machining, then perhaps a machinist or fitter is required - probably not an engineer, they wouldn't be much use.

But as someone once didn't say - an engineer by any other name would smell just as sweet - so who cares.

I've had my CEng for many years and if I ever get round to it I'll get my FIET pretty easily - but I'm more manager than engineer these days. Of course so was Brunel.

They pay me enough that I don't care whether I'm an engineer or not.

I though on trains the brakes were held off by the air, so in the event of a failure the thing STOPPED rolling? I cant check right now, maybe someone can explain?

The bit about qualified and professional.

They pay me enough that I don't care whether I'm an engineer or not.

an engineer by any other name would smell just as sweet

Precisely my points. The satisfaction of the job, the sense of accomplishment and the earnings should be plenty to be proud about. The post nominals tell everyone what they need to know. Hijacking the word "engineer" is just pathetic and elitist.

I've seen this from more sides than most, having completed an apprenticeship, been a hands on engineer then working up through college and university to an office based engineer (although I'm no designer). I've worked for tiny firms with a dingy office and some blokes in vans and also for huge global engineering consultancies.

I was working with a "plumber" yesterday who was calculating gas supply pipe sizes and purge rates. Something the design engineer (not being gas safe qualified) wasn't qualified to do.

I though on trains the brakes were held off by the air, so in the event of a failure the thing STOPPED rolling? I cant check right now, maybe someone can explain?

A big spring holds the pads against the disk, and air pressure is used to move the pads away from the fail safe position.