Here's one quote that you've missed out cheddar:
"More than 110 Labour and Liberal Democrat MPs - backed by the TUC and the RMT and TGWU unions - have protested at the move....."
So where were the Tory protests? Since you obviously want to use this thread to defend the Tories.
And perhaps you missed this comment I made a few posts up there ^^
And what would have happened to P&O Ferries if unlike other countries such as France the UK didn’t have pisspoor employment protection laws? Should we be thanking the Tories and New Labour for saving P&O Ferries?
I think it is a well established fact that not much distinguished New Labour from the Tories. You highlighting that fact is no great revelation.
Peter Hebblethwaite has knackered the gagging of the workforce with his commons performance. Any withholding of redundancy payments due to talking with the press (as was alleged by a seafarer) will just lead to a no contest tribunal or court case for compensation and the possibility of unlimited payments. Not very astute at all.
Was I the only one wondering how many multiples of his new workers annual salary his ostentatious watch cost?
Will P&O ferries still be in business by the summer?
We booked tickets for the summer of 2020 using the Tesco club offer and the credit was rolled from 2020 to 2021 when we didn't use it. We then couldn't travel in 2021 so the credit was rolled again.
I booked tickets in February for this summer. I rang yesterday after that outrageous display by the CEO to see if I could cancel. I could cancel but obviously can't 'launder' clubcard credit for cash so I'd only ever get a credit note to use in the future.
So it looks like we have to hold our noses and travel with them as we haven't got the money to book with DFDS and just lose the P&O credit.
I wonder what would happen if they did go pop, would my insurance cover the credit I wonder?
The woman in the call centre was really nice and helpful so at least she's still got a job!
And yes, I know, I'm very lucky to be thinking about a summer holiday rather then having my job whisked away from under me!
Was I the only one wondering how many multiples of his new workers annual salary his ostentatious watch cost?
I suspect it would have been multiples of most of his old workers as well.
Isnt it odd how they never think of offshoring the most expensive staff.
Isnt it odd how they never think of offshoring the most expensive staff.
Ummm I think you'll find they're that expensive because you need to pay that much to ensure you attract and retain the kind of talent and decision making skills you need to increase revenue and provide maximum shareholder return on a quarterly basis.
In other words, it takes a lot of money to make decisions this stupid.
I wonder what would happen if they did go pop, would my insurance cover the credit I wonder?
Pretty sure it would. We've got a Rotterdam to Hull booked for 10th April and not sure if it'll be running or not. It is running at the moment but unsure if the Sunday crossing will change to a Saturday.
If I hadn't bought the cheap crossing I'd cancel now and get my money back, but if it's running we'll have to use it, as I'm not giving them £300 for nothing!
I'f it gets changed or cancelled I'll just claim on my insurance and get the Amsterdam - Newcastle DFDS instead.
We had a semi flexible ticket for Hull to Rotterdam, so managed to cancel and get most of it refunded. Booked with Stena from Harwich instead. Travelling with the dog and already have an 8 hour drive the other side so alternatives are limited. We were in two minds whether to wait and see but would have lost more if cancelling later and seeing as they seem to only be confirming cancellations on the day I'm really glad we took the hit now.
Given DP worlds contracts with the govt could be under review, maybe he’s been offered a nice package to be the fall guy? DP world can blame a rogue CEO and carry on as normal.
The P&O boss that was being questioned by that select committee yesterday explicitly admitted breaking the law. I'm sure parliamentary privilege doesn't apply to non-MP's or outside the main chambers, so presumably someone will be prosecuting him??
I’m sure parliamentary privilege doesn’t apply to non-MP’s or outside the main chambers, so presumably someone will be prosecuting him??
Was he admitting to breaking UK law though? My understanding was that the law had been amended recently to comply with a EU directive and DP World now had a legal obligation to inform countries where their ships are registered, such as Cyprus.
so presumably someone will be prosecuting him??
Do you know how weak UK employment law is? There's just a financial implication for the company if the law can be shown to be broken (which has been pre-empted by the proposed payouts)... there is no legal come back on any individual, the cost of breaking this kind of law (in this case not consulting with unions) is easily shrugged off by a company like D P World (who, let us not forget, the government's low regulation low tax freeport plan depends on).
Pretty sure it would. We’ve got a Rotterdam to Hull booked for 10th April and not sure if it’ll be running or not. It is running at the moment but unsure if the Sunday crossing will change to a Saturday.
Rotterdam-Hull on 10 April is pride of Rotterdam so should be running (we are booked on the pride of hull on the 9th which is more iffy and wondering whether we'll end up on a different route or moved to the sundy).
It looks like our outbound leg on Wednesday will be fine as it is pride of Rotterdam, the timing of this all happening was crap for us because on our ticket we didn't get any refund if we cancelled less than 14 days in advance, so have had to hold tight and wait to see what happens. We could have changed it to other dates (we were planning another trip later in the year anyway) but didn't want to risk them going pop/pulling the route further down the line.
It’s apparently what he said.
Yes I knew that he had admitted to breaking the law but I wasn't sure if he was admitting to breaking UK law. Can DP World be prosecuted in the UK or would it have to be in the country the ship is registered?
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60849957
However, Tim Tyndall, employment partner at Keystone Law, told the BBC the law had changed in 2018 due to the implementation of an EU directive. Chris Grayling was the Secretary of State for Transport from 2016 to 2019 when the change was made.
Firms no longer need to inform the UK government about mass dismissals but instead must tell the governments of the countries where boats are registered, he said.
In the meantime, given that the contracted labour may not possess the skills to run a ferry, it may be simpler for the existing (pre-redundancy) staff to lease the ships from their (Dubai?) owners and run the existing routes while they find a way to restructure.
Apologies for just dumping a tweet here…
https://twitter.com/sturdyalex/status/1507320611965648905?s=21
Double apologies for everyone too young to get that.
TBF, the watch looks like an Omega or Tag Heuer, so under £10k!
Not the most inspiring performance, though.
Oops...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60881550
Getting part of the fleet 'detained' isn't great look 😀
Sky News: P&O Ferries boss denies breaking criminal law to remaining staff in leaked email.
https://news.sky.com/story/p-o-boss-denies-breaking-law-to-remaining-staff-in-email-12574756
Mr Shapps said he would bring legislation before Parliament next week to close these "loopholes", including amending the National Minimum Wage Act to cover seafarers routinely operating in UK territorial waters.
"What I'm going to do … is come to parliament this coming week with a package of measures which will both close every possible loophole that exists and force them to U-turn on this," he said.
"We are not having people working from British ports... plying regular routes between here and France or here and Holland, or (anywhere) else, and failing to pay the minimum wage.
"It's simply unacceptable and we will force that to change."
"My message to P&O is simple, their wheeze is not going to work.
"We are going to legally require them to go back on it they might as well start on that now.
When this story first broke I was intrigued by what Johnson's reaction might be. As a Tory PM you would naturally expect to put the interests of a foreign billionaire before those ordinary working people.
But Johnson has no real genuine commitment to the Tory cause, the only commitment he has is to himself.
As a populist and a showman he yearns for approval. And he desperately needs to boost that approval after months of negative headlines.
P&O Ferries have given him a golden opportunity to achieve precisely that. Their behaviour has been universally condemned. As someone who isn't bogged down by idealogical commitment I wasn't totally convinced that he wouldn't seize the opportunity and give them grief.
I thought the question might come down to how much Johnson was prepared to piss off the dictator of an oil rich country. But I'm sure the possible consequences don't bother him that much.
We will see next week if all those threats made by Shapps materialise. If they do I will be less surprised than I would be if Johnson had missed an opportunity offered to him on a plate.
We've had years of this now, promise to act in order to move the news agenda on, and then once the can kicking has worked, quietly do nothing... or worse, move things even more in favour of unscrupulous employers (see any other issue as well). The Conservatives have this whole "loud impassioned verbal response, then quietly do nothing" trick down to a tee. It helps when most of the media are onside, of course.
“We are going to legally require them to go back on it they might as well start on that now.
Presumably this legislation will apply to Irish Ferries and all others as well. What is the definition of "routinely"? Can they rotate staff once a month, say to another route? I can understand within UK, but to other countries?
Will be going to Ireland presently. Won't be P&O.
Yes it is claimed that the minimum wage will apply to ferries using UK ports. Obviously the sacked officers and ratings were being paid in excess of the minimum wage but it remains to be seen how viable it will be for P&O to contract out the labour to agencies.
I believe there will be more to the proposed legislation than just that though. It is expected to be before parliament Thursday or Friday so should know pretty soon.
Currently P&O Ferries are losing a fortune everyday as they are unable to operate and with Easter coming up it is in the interest of everyone concerned to resolve the matter as soon as possible.
It is reasonable to assume that if the issues are resolved satisfactorily that the consequences will include higher prices for customers.
With these detentions of P&O ships, is it safe to assume that since being sacked the workers are whistleblowing issues that they knew about when they were working for P&O?
I can't think why else these issues would be found at this time.
Possibly, but the training of the crew I think requires a certain standard of knowledge incuding familiarity with certain types of ship they work on.
So you can't just outsource the whole staff with wanton abandonment like you can with a call center or whatever.
P&O Ferries said in a statement that inspections of its ships had reached "an unprecedent level of rigour" after interventions by ministers.
Blaming politicians for the MCA taking an enhanced interest after you get rid of your entire experienced crew on a vessel which crosses one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world a few times a day is a bit rich. Even more so when they start finding various malfunctioning emergency equipment as well as untrained crew.
At least they 'welcome the scrutiny', apparently. How much money do they have to haemorrhage sitting at the dock before the reduced wage bill starts to look less of a bargain?
"How much money do they have to haemorrhage sitting at the dock before the reduced wage bill starts to look less of a bargain?"
Probably quite a lot.
In his appearance at the Commons Select Committee the CEO stated that the new operating model (maritime crew / intl contracts) will reduce the OpModel cost by 50%. Without a reduction of more than 25% on current costs P&O is not viable as a going concern - that's break even, not profit.
The simple reality is that even if all ferry operators can be compelled to operate the minimum wage (which seems very much in doubt due to the way maritime employment contracts / flagging of vessels works), this would still leave P&O trying to attract and retain UK based crew at minimum wage (low to UK relative wage) whilst Irish Ferries pays minimum wage to an experienced international crew (incredibly high compared to their local wages) with people queuing up to join them.
So what we are now seeing as a game of high stakes brinksmanship.
If the government insists on minimum wage and can't apply it to other operators then P&O will go bust and the vessels will be sold on - with no guarantee that the capacity on UK / EU routes won't be permanently reduced with all the supply chain issues that go with that.
OR
The government accepts it can't enforce anything (vessels flagged in the EU / Bermuda, crew are international, maritime law isn't being broken).
I can’t think why else these issues would be found at this time.
Might just be the inspections are being rather more thorough than normal.
They list:
crew training: kind of obvious
documentation: Might have accidentally got lost/jumbled up on the way out the door or just been the sort of thing which would have been tidied up before an scheduled inspection.
Emergency equipment. who knows?
Unlikely as it would be if one of those boats sank and the port authorities has a even a wiff that some of the new staff where less than qualified to do a task on board there would be hell to pay I can see why they are getting impounded. Although a bit of extra checking is probably being done. I do hope the CEO is enjoying his 40 pieces of silver.
Oddly if he had refused to action the plan of sacking people like that and left the company blowing the whistle he would be much more employable than he is now.
Irish ferries compete with P&O on one route (dover-calais) and even that has only been with 1 boat for the last 6 months (recently added another). It's old news that changing staff won't save £100m / year so they need to come up with something better.
OR
The government accepts it can’t enforce anything (vessels flagged in the EU / Bermuda, crew are international,
Interesting that you have such a defeatist attitude cheddar. The government claims it can do something about the current (and universally condemned) situation.
Legislation is now expected to before parliament either tomorrow or the day after. So not long to wait to find out whether this is true.
You seem to think that DP World won't be able to operate UK ferries operations as a viable business if they aren't allowed to operate as however they wish.
It would appear that perhaps the government shares your views in that respect and it maybe explains this :
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/po-ferries-rivals-meet-government-23516463
Btw since appear to dislike government involvement in "complex operations" such as ferry services it is probably worth pointing out that Irish Ferries, and the race to the bottom which they appear to be encouraging, is the result of Irish government privitization.
The government claims it can do something about the current (and universally condemned) situation.
Ha.Haha.hahahahhaha.
Have just got off the phone with P&O. They’ve cancelled all pride of hull crossings until the 11th April, so our nice gentle pootle across the sea next Friday is turning into a marathon drive to Folkestone. Joy.
Hot_fiat is that definite? We are currently on the pride of Rotterdam (just passing immingham...) and booked to come back on the pride of hull on the 9th. When we checked in they gave us the return portion of the ticket with no comment.
Yeah I was on the phone to the call centre checking my booking when the person at the other end received the email. They offered me full cancellation, moving a day either side or free rebooking with DFDS. In the end none of that really suited us so they refunded 50% of the ticket meaning we travel home with them on PoR. Outbound I’ve used the refund to book us with DFDS to Dunquerque.
I think we will probably move to the day after if given the choice (makes us a bit late back for work on the Monday but our jobs are flexible enough to be able to do it if we can get home for mid morning) and we could head to Maastricht to see the start of Amstel Gold on the Sunday before heading back. But we'll see. Just arriving in Rotterdam now, then heading down to Flanders.
We've got a text about it now, looks like an extra nights holiday for us...
The government claims it can do something about the current (and universally condemned) situation.
The only suggestion I've seen publicised so far appears to be giving UK ports the ability to refuse ships whose crews aren't UK minimum wage. In what fever dream did our glorious leaders think ports would want to even ask that question of their customers, let along attempt to police their employment policies?
So, if that's the best idea, basically they have no ideas.
I see they're now saying pride of hull cancelled until at least April 22
You know what? I reckon they might fold. That’s a hell of a long time to have an asset like that out of use. All the channel ferries are still laid up, as well as the north channel ships. That leaves PoR and Norbank as their only operating ships out of a fleet of 11. The Easter rush is looming and I’m not sure they’ll get the Dover / Calais route re-opened in time. Cr@p.
I wouldn't be surprised at this rate.
Our update - we couldn't get through yesterday (we're on holiday and didn't want to spend all day on hold!). When we got through today the best they could do was a ferry 3 days later than we booked. As we have jobs to get back for we ended up cancelling and booking on dfds to Newcastle. Less convenient but at least we have confidence it will sail.
Well, the insolvency service is wading in now, so lookout!
P&O management must be banking on the fact that everyone else thinks like a robot.
The European crews not suffering the same fate is just laughable.
Never assume big business knows best!
Never assume big business knows best!
I expect they were hoping to slip it out unnoticed with everything else going on and any minor complaints would be happily ignored by the tories.
@hjghg5 check your refund carefully. P&O just called me to ask what I wanted to do with my booking for this Friday. They seemingly had no record of the fact I’d called on Wednesday and asked for it to be cancelled, but did have a new additional booking for me on the 20th.
