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Teach drivers proper roadcraft, so they can make their own decisions about their speed.
This isn't possible.
Personally, I'd put GPS speed limit awareness technology on every car, so they don't need to watch the speedo it just bongs annoyingly when they exceed it wherever they are. Ignore the bongs for too long and your ticket's in the post. In addition, I'd put dashboard cams in every car, or give you insurance/tax discounts.
There may be a danger in exceeding the 50 limit, but there is definitely not a danger in sticking to it.
Ah, "we've always done it this way." Always the best reason to do anything.
No, not always - don't be facetious - but it's often a good reason. People's familiarity is a significant factor in many cases.
This isn't possible.
Why not? If people can't learn proper roadcraft, perhaps driving isn't for them? At the risk of trotting out a cliché of my own in a thread containing phrases like "Limits are Limits though, not advisories", driving is a privilege not a right.
Personally, I'd put GPS speed limit awareness technology on every car,
Problem with that is that the people who most need limiting are also the ones most likely to knobble it and go "oh, it broke, officer."
But familiarity with driving is one of the causes of this video. The big killer on the road is that people treat driving with complete complacency. For some people you might as well be sitting in your armchair at home rather than steering a ton or so of steel at speeds which kill. It is a massively prevalent attitude which I can never understand.
Interesting and it probably took a lot for the family to put the video on Youtube...
A lot of the debate here is covered in a Speed Awareness Course, curiously....
If people can't learn proper roadcraft, perhaps driving isn't for them?
Unfortunately, there are many drivers who don't meet what I'd call a sufficient standard.
Perhaps it could be possible - I don't know. It'd be difficult and would require a lot of effort in the planning. Maybe not just re-tests but retraining. People are saying the speed awareness courses are good - maybe they could be part of a compulsory retest, with the retest based on a proper driving awareness assessment rather than simply reversing round a corner.
Problem with that is that the people who most need limiting are also the ones most likely to knobble it and go "oh, it broke, officer."
If the servers don't get a handshake every so often, you get a warning in the post. If you ignore it, you get a fine like for not displaying a tax disk.
I'd also GPS track every vehicle in real time, and use analytics techniques to send out warnings - 'you overtook too close to that car, you lose one point from your license' 'You overtook through a junction, you lose one point from your license' etc.
If you don't like it, tough shit, take the bus.
(I may not be entirely serious in this post, but I am only half joking)
Google self driving cars will hopefully make all of this irrelevant.
Unfortunately, there are many drivers who don't meet what I'd call a sufficient standard.
No arguments here.
It'd be difficult and would require a lot of effort in the planning. Maybe not just re-tests but retraining.
Sure. Which is why we have such a froth on about speed limits instead. They're [i]easy.[/i]
I'm all in favour of the GPS monitoring of speed as long as it goes both ways. ie "It's 2am in the morning, you're in a modern well maintained car with no faults, there's no other cars on this motorway right now, so feel free to do 150!! "
😉
molgrips
so they don't need to watch the speedo
The only reason i pay any attention to the speedo in my car is so i can stay in (or around) the arbitrary limits required by our authorities. There is no need to look at your speedo to determine the "safe speed" for any particular driving scenario!
That speed on that on road with the amount of traffic was just idiotic, his whole riding was to be honest, then he overtook a car on a box junction that was in use by another car. This car then foolishly pulled out in front of him and because of the speed the outcome wasn't good for the motorcyclist.
As someone who drives at high speeds for a living I'd not even considered driving anywhere near that speed on that road even with the light and sirens going full tilt. A very sad and hard lesson has been learnt by all involved, which is what his mother is trying to point out.
Sticking to the speed limit (as long as you are paying due attention to everything) HAS ABSOLUTELY NO DISADVANTAGES.
People will naturally adjust their speed up and down as the demands of the road change, if the road opens up you might well adjust to over 60 by accident - unless you keep looking at the speedo. But that famous article by the air force guy tells me that comes with significant disadvantages. Looking down, acquiring the speedo, then looking up and reacquiring the picture in front takes a lot of road. (And you might think you've acquired the view ahead again and be unaware that most of what you see is entirely made up by your 'software'.)
(None of that excuses 97mph through a busy junction. Or even 57mph.)
There is no need to look at your speedo to determine the "safe speed" for any particular driving scenario!
If we were all perfectly trained, perhaps not.
But then again - I'd rather everyone was going the same speed than having to deal with people with too much self confidence deciding 100mph is ok.
Let's face it, people flout the law often enough as it is, and they still make shit decisions.
Very poor driving really – despite the ludicrous speed the biker was doing, it was terribly poor judgement from the driver. Surely they saw the bike coming towards them - on a straight road with good visibility.
retraining would be fine, professional drivers have to do it.
granted, its not a lot, 35 hours every 5 years, still it would be a start.
have a google for driver cpc, every bus and truck driver has to do it, if you dont you cant drive a bus or truck, even if you have passed the practical/theory/hazard awareness test.
I would say both the car and bike equally at fault here. It's pretty clear that 97mph was a risky proposition on this road given how much traffic was around and the number of junctions. That said, car driver clearly was not paying attention. 50/50 I'd say.
There was a documentary on TV a little while ago about habitual speeders. They forced them to drive at the limits and filmed the results. In many cases, they were actually worse drivers; they were bored, disengaged, frustrated and impatient, and their attention wandered.
I'm a habitual fast driver, I freely admit it. I don't drive fast in build up areas I might add, but on an open road in light traffic, with the right conditions then yes I'll put my foot down.
I drive fast because I enjoy driving and I enjoy the sensation of speed. Because I drive fast I bought a vehicle that accelerates, brakes, corners far better than the average so this does give an increased margin of safety when pressing on. I've also taken extra driver training to improve observation and car handling skills.
I notice that when I'm driving fast all senses are heightened, my observation improves, I'm planning ahead far more, I'm more alert and far more ready to react to things happening around me.
When I drive at or below the limit, just plodding along, I find my concentration decreases significantly and I'm easily distracted. I've had a few near misses over the years, all when driving slowly and all due to lapses in concentration or by being distracted.
So I'd argue that for me, I'm a safer driver when I'm driving at a speed appropriate for the conditions (possibly involving speeding) than when I'm sticking at or below the given speed limit. Sorry, that might not be a very PC thing to say on here but it's just the truth.
^ you paying more attention with your heightened awareness and such is all very well and good, but that wont stop [i]someone else[/i] doing something stupid, and if you happen to hit them because of their mistake the outcome [i]for both of you[/i] will be a lot worse due to you 'pressing on'.
In my experience people who think they have superior skills are either deluding themselves, or in the rare cases when they do have the skills, forget that those around them do not.
Throw in a bit of your version of appropriate (because you have superior skills of course ;-)) being different to someone elses and it's a recipe for trouble.
I'm all for appropriate speed for conditions and not just blindly following limits, but you need to remember that the 'appropriate' bit isn't just about [i]your [/i]skills, [i]your[/i] vehicle, and the road/weather/visibility, it's about the [i]other people[/i] you are sharing that road with, the least predictable and most variable element of the whole thing.
The sad truth is: Driving Licenses are given out and retained far too easily.
Because I drive fast I bought a vehicle that accelerates, brakes, corners far better than the average so this does give an increased margin of safety when pressing on. I've also taken extra driver training to improve observation and car handling skills
I too have had extra training and experience, including track days, 1-2-1 tuition from Police drivers, and I've done a fair amount of off-road trialling and rallying and have experience of more varied terrain and traction conditions than most, but at best that hopefully gives me an increased margin of safety in normal circumstances, it doesn't mean those around me do, and it doesn't mean that I should erode that margin by driving faster or like and idiot.
If you want to push yourself and your vehicle then the public road is not the place for it, keep it on the track or off-road where it belongs.
I am not perfect, and I don't want my mistakes to end up harming someone else any more than I want to be harmed by someone elses.
I drive fast because I enjoy driving and I enjoy the sensation of speed. Because I drive fast I bought a vehicle that accelerates, brakes, corners far better than the average so this does give an increased margin of safety when pressing on.
Whatever advantage it gives is easily offset by the higher speed. If you STILL don't know why more speed is worse than less speed you've really not got a clue, I'm not sure you should be in charge of any car never mind a fast one.
That guy in the video - how good was his bike? How well did it accelerate and corner? Did he have confidence in his hazard perception abilities? Did it make any difference?
I find my concentration decreases significantly and I'm easily distracted.
This is a really stupid argument. If you can't concentrate whilst driving then you really need to work on that, not simply drive faster. Christ.
unklehomered - Member
Google self driving cars will hopefully make all of this irrelevant.
Given the bike came from behind a slower vehicle it would be an interesting test scenario to establish the capability of self-driving vehicles (which I'm all for btw)
Modern cars make the drivers feel so safe and are so isolated from the outside world and therefore other road users I think this screws most people's judgements of what's risky and what isn't... plus we drive much more frequently than we used to... so the chances of a collision are higher...
Worth remembering this when you're out on the road whether walking, cycling or driving (whether speeding or not). The risk of a collision is largely outside your control
unless you keep looking at the speedo. But that famous article by the air force guy tells me that comes with significant disadvantages
I don't think that's anyhting like what the article says.
It's basic message is "look two or three times and look 'around' don't just glance at the space down the road once".
How you turn that into "I'm better off just staring down the road rather than occasionally glancing at my speedo ([b]which will give the eye movements neccesary to AVOID saccadic masking[/b])" I don't know!
The risk of a collision is largely outside your control
Well - the risk of a collision comes from other people, but you can do something about it - drive defensively. This means taking it easy and concentrating a lot.
I drive fast because I enjoy driving and I enjoy the sensation of speed. Because I drive fast I bought a vehicle that accelerates, brakes, corners far better than the average so this does give an increased margin of safety when pressing on.
Only in terms of you being able to corner faster without siding off the road. It has no effect on your reaction times if something unexpected happens.
If Mr Average in his car that "[i]accelerates, brakes, corners [s]far better than [/s]the average [/i]" is waiting to pull out and clocks you a few hundred meters away and his brian tells you you're doing the speed limit or thereabouts, no ammount of tuned suspension or driver training is going to stop you pileing into him becasue you were going a ****load faster than he gave your awesome skilz/motor credit for.
As I said before, if everyone stuck to the letter of the highway code it'd be nearly impossible to have an accident. As soon as people start believeing that they're above it all then accidents start occouring just as they do when people are just rubbish drivers and deviate from it.
100mph here: [URL= http://i924.photobucket.com/albums/ad88/RichMTB77/A82a_zpsde9b7001.jp g" target="_blank">
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fill your boots
100mph towards a junction on a busy single carriageway, not a great idea and it contributed to the outcome of the accident even though ultimately it wasn't the riders fault.
Speed doesn't kill, inappropriate speed kills, the riders speed was inappropriate.
So I'd argue that for me, I'm a safer driver when I'm driving at a speed appropriate for the conditions (possibly involving speeding) than when I'm sticking at or below the given speed limit. Sorry, that might not be a very PC thing to say on here but it's just the truth.
I'd argue you're talking out of your arse. Sorry that might not be very PC but it's the truth.
I passed the junction this afternoon. Had a good look at where it happened and the rider was a complete plonker for riding at 97mph at that point.
For the vast majority of drivers going about their daily business, driving is not an activity in itself, it is just something they have to do to get to the thing they really want to do! (ie, shopping, or work or whatever). Because of that, their concentration and observance are low. We need to make driving a specific activity or task in it's own right. When you are driving a car, or riding a bike, that should be the focus of 100% of your attention. For most people i'm going to suggest that driving the car sit somewhere at around 30%!
The problem with this is that most fighter pilots will tell you that they can only concentrate at 100 percent for short amounts of time. Considering these men and women are in the top 99 percentile for reaction times and IQ then think what it's like for your average road users.
The human brain isn't designed to operate at the level of concentration needed to drive at reasonable speeds for extended periods of time. So unless you think trying to train all road users like fighter pilots, where they train situational awareness methods routinely until they become habitual then I would much prefer peoples speeds to be limited. As I will never trust your average member of the public to drive a car with the same mentality as combat pilots.
2) Teach drivers proper roadcraft, so they can make their own decisions about their speed.
The problem with this is that most people are average iq idiots who have massive cognitive distortions in regards to their ability and the reaction times of donkeys.
I passed the junction this afternoon. Had a good look at where it happened and the rider was a complete plonker for riding at 97mph at that point
Surely you meant a plonker for riding at97mph. Full stop.
Really don't know some are making this the car drivers fault.
On the footage you can hardly see the car pulling across the road.
Put a camera on the inside the car .... do you really think you'd see that bike which is considerably smaller?
As I said before, if everyone stuck to the letter of the highway code it'd be nearly impossible to have an accident.
On a thread full of wild statements, that's the daftest thing anyone's said here. Well done.
If everyone stuck to the letter of THC, the roads would still be full of dangerous halfwits who are more than capable of looking you right in the eyes as they pull out on you. If you really want to improve road safety, replace all the speed cameras with notpayingattention cameras.
Put a camera on the inside the car .... do you really think you'd see that bike which is considerably smaller?
The driver fully admitted that he didn't see the bike [i]or the slower-moving and much larger car[/i] it was overtaking.
Technology exists to check if a person is looking at a camera or not. If my insurance offered me a discount to fit a machine to measure how long I spent not looking at the road, I'd do it.
I don't get this...
The boy in the video was clearly riding like an utter bender, and the car driver judged the situation badly.
What's to discuss?
Well, if you read the thread, you might find out.
Also,
Are homosexual people known for their substandard motorcycling abilities?
Yunki some peope are saying it's fine to ride like [s]a bender[/s] a pillock, because if someone turns in front of you it's THEIR fault you're dead, not yours.
What a witty retort cougar.. I am undone
Who mentioned homosexuals?
Technology exists to check if a person is looking at a camera or not. If my insurance offered me a discount to fit a machine to measure how long I spent not looking at the road, I'd do it.
If we don't move to self driving cars, I'd at least like to see LIDAR on all new cars and bikes that
1) Automatically applies brakes. You could design the software to only apply them under certain situations, so as not to stand bikes up at the wrong time.
2) Stops you from pulling out in front of other vehicles.
you paying more attention with your heightened awareness and such is all very well and good, but that wont stop someone else doing something stupid
No it doesn't stop other people doing stupid things, but because I'm more aware of other road users when driving quickly then I'm going to react faster and have a greater perception of what others are likely to be doing - helping to avoid an accident in the first place.
it's about the other people you are sharing that road with, the least predictable and most variable element of the whole thing.
I think you'll find that if you observe other motorists well there's very little on the road that is truly 'a surprise'. Normally it's possible to second guess what another motorist is about to do. When you approach a situation where there's likely to be someone doing something silly (like the junction in the video), then I'll slow down to allow for that.
Only in terms of you being able to corner faster without siding off the road. It has no effect on your reaction times if something unexpected happens
Yes it does, as I've just explained, reaction times are vastly improved when you're more aware and can almost second guess what other motorists are about to do.
I'd argue you're talking out of your arse. Sorry that might not be very PC but it's the truth.
Really, so you've been in a car with me then? Sorry I don't recall that.
no ammount of tuned suspension or driver training is going to stop you pileing into him becasue you were going a ****load faster than he gave your awesome skilz/motor credit for.
Sorry but you must be a complete bellend if you believe that additional driver training doesn't improve your safety. You may as well come on here and say that going to French evening class won't help you to speak French any better 🙄
The driver fully admitted that he didn't see the bike or the slower-moving and much larger car it was overtaking.
I'm not surprised he didnt see the the car either... it was probably 1/2 a mile away !!
because I'm more aware of other road users when driving quickly
If you can't concentrate when you slow down then you have a MAJOR problem with your driving. You are not a good driver. You need to face up to that.
Normally it's possible to second guess what another motorist is about to do.
Yes, normally it is (I do it, even though I'm not speeding) but it only takes one abnormal situation and you're toast. This is what happened in the video.
Sorry but you must be a complete bellend if you believe that additional driver training doesn't improve your safety
It would, if you didn't then go and cancel it out by driving too fast.
Really, so you've been in a car with me then? Sorry I don't recall that.
I drive at high speeds for a living, yes you can pay more attention but it is not safer by a very long way.
So I really don't need to be in the car with you to know that.
A couple of hundred yardsI'm not surprised he didnt see the the car either... it was probably 1/2 a mile away !!
In any case. A car is perfectly visible at half a mile... should you choose to look.
Just watched this, without reading pages of bickering, did anyone work out if the car would have been out the way onto the side road if the motorbike had been sticking to the speed limit? Gotta say I feel more sorry for the car driver than the motorcyclist, he was doing a crazy speed.
In any case. A car is perfectly visible at half a mile... should you choose to look
Of course you are right
But then then you'd see it's half a mile away or indeed a few hundred yards and know that you'd be able to make your move across the road without it coming anywhere near you.... Because it not moving at 100 mile an hour
If you can't concentrate when you slow down then you have a MAJOR problem with your driving. You are not a good driver. You need to face up to that.
I didn't say I can't concentrate, I said that you're more aware and concentrate better, with heightened senses when driving quickly and that it's far easier to get distracted when you're just trundling along. That's human nature Molgrips, or are you trying to argue against a few million years of human evolution?
I drive at high speeds for a living, yes you can pay more attention but it is not safer by a very long way.
Well Jenson Button, I disagree totally with you there. I've had most of my near misses at or well below the speed limit, partly because as mentioned above, it's far easier (for anyone - not just me) to get distracted at lower speed, when you're not quite as focused.
Sure there's always the odd idiot who drives too fast for the conditions but by far the worst drivers I see on the road on a daily basis are the ones actually driving slowly. Often they're the ones distracted by phone calls, texting, erratic, unconfident, indecisive, in the wrong lane, unaware of whats around them, etc.
I think you'll find that those people who like driving fast are also normally interested in improving their driving skills, maintaining their vehicle to high standards, and normally genuinely care about the standard of their driving. A completely different mentality to the deluded 'I don't break the speed limit so by default I must be a safer driver' lot on here.