FeeFoo - MemberI'm not out to win an argument here, I just (naively) think it'd be a nicer place to live if people didn't feel the need to condescend.
good - then understand the condescending nature of
TJ Jesus died so that you may live, you might want to say thanks.
But dont worry regardless of what you do or who your are God loves you.
Keep religion in private please and don't assume you are superior adn use that to be condescending to the rest of us
And yes it does show an assumption of superiority I find most unpleasant. Its that assumption of superiority that leads to the prejudice religions engender.
I think that maybe an assumption too far TJ
6 billion + people who follow a whole array of differing religions....
But I know what you meant 🙂
It's people who make assumptions of superiority.It's all about people really.
BTW What tyres for the Lion's den?
I can see nothing in your biblical quotes to support you statement, Steve. None of your quotes indicates that it is the death of Jesus that allows TJ to live.
Keep hunting.
Keep religion in private please
So there you go. Someone starts the usual thread knocking Christians, a few folk get frothy and then when someone dares to speak back they are told to keep their religion private 🙁
You are partly right TJ in that some religious folk can be preachy, over the top and judgemental but the vast majority that I have ever met are normal folks that are not like that at all (as you have said yourself before I believe). It would be like judging any group my the mentalists within it rather that the majority
Keep religion in private please and don't assume you are superior adn use that to be condescending to the rest of us
But TJ, less than an hour ago you used the phrase "to those of a rational mindset". Surely that's you doing exactly that?
Keep religion in private please
If religion can be vilified in public then it has every right to defend itself in public.
Kenny - "Rational mindset" is not making a moral judgement. Its a statement of fact. Religion is not rational by definition - its a matter of faith.
leffeboy - Member
..... some religious folk can be preachy, over the top and judgemental
as can some non-religious folk !
We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.
TandemJeremy - Member
.... its a matter of faith.
which people are surely entitled to hold and communicate - or are you advocating religious censorship ?
How exactly? Freedom to shop seven days a week is hardly a fundamental human right. I don't see how letting shop employees have one day at home with their families is removing the freedom of choice?
Well, we weren't talking about human rights, we were talking about laws.
I don't see how opening shops on a Sunday prevents employees from having one, or six, days at home with their families. Neither do I see how closing a shop on Sunday automatically gives people a day off; plenty of people still work in stores after the front doors locked.
What it does mean is stores can't choose to, say, open on Sunday and close on Tuesday. It means that when I'm making a spag bol and find I'm out of (veggie) mince at 6pm on a Sunday, I'm knackered.
And sure, it's hardly the end of the world. Point is, there's no real reason for it beyond its religious trappings, outside of religion it's unnecessary and arbitrary.
It's unimportant in the grand scheme of things of course; just an example.
Hilldodger - no - they can do what they like between consenting adults in private.
Waht I cannot accept is when they tell me I am of inferior morals because I do not believe or attempt to dictate what I can and cannot do because of their belief.
kennyp - MemberKeep religion in private please and don't assume you are superior adn use that to be condescending to the rest of us
But TJ, less than an hour ago you used the phrase "to those of a rational mindset". Surely that's you doing exactly that?
TandemJeremy - MemberKenny - "Rational mindset" is not making a moral judgement. Its a statement of fact. Religion is not rational by definition - its a matter of faith.
TJ Condescending , morality? Confused.
Surely a "rational mindset" is relative and subjective.
I am sure Stalin (at least in his eyes) was in a rational mindset when he committed his many atrocities
hilldodger - Memberwhich people are surely entitled to hold and communicate - or are you advocating religious censorship ?
There's a difference between holding and communicating your faith, and pushing it on others, obviously. "The values of the Bible, the values of Christianity, are the values that we need" or "you might want to say thanks."
Edukator - Member
But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
It's like laughing at trainspotters or model railway enthusiasts or mtbers.
do these have a special place in the lords where they get to vote on legislation?
Do they run schools?
Do they make pronouncements on homosexuality?
Do they forbid condom use thereby exacerbating AIDS?
Did thy spend the last 600 years preventing knowledge excommunication Galileo for saying the earth orbitted the sun etc
I am aware that much of the doctrine is peace and love but i talso has has rules that must be adhered to despite the evidence they have finally accepted DNA iirc but not evolution....i am not sure what their view is on Dinosaurs.
The message is not peace and love it is about intolerance , preaching , dictating and making others life according to their view [ marriage for example even though it predates the Church and their involvement by millennia]
this is why they garner such strong reactions
TBH less than 200 years ago we would all be in prison for blasphemy if we said this. We are not imprisoning those of faith so who lacks the tolerance again?
What it does mean is stores can't choose to, say, open on Sunday and close on Tuesday. It means that when I'm making a spag bol and find I'm out of (veggie) mince at 6pm on a Sunday, I'm knackered.
Not in most of Scotland and are there no corner shops near you?
TandemJeremy - Member
Hilldodger - no - they can do what they like between consenting adults in private.
So you reject their right to communicate their beliefs in public ? surely that's the definition of censorship....
What it does mean is stores can't choose to, say, open on Sunday and close on Tuesday. It means that when I'm making a spag bol and find I'm out of (veggie) mince at 6pm on a Sunday, I'm knackered.
OT but, I do miss the quietness of Sundays of my youth when only the paper shop was open in the morning.
Boring I suppose, but they had a quietness that I'd appreciate now - if not then.
There's a difference between holding and communicating your faith, and pushing it on others, obviously.
TBF, if there's anywhere that people can try and push their religious values, it's in the middle of a debate discussing religious values.
There's vast a difference between doing it here and knocking on my door on a Sundday morning. More power to their elbow, I say.
Not in most of Scotland and are there no corner shops near you?
Not that sell Quorn.
OT but, I do miss the quietness of Sundays of my youth when only the paper shop was open in the morning.
Boring I suppose, but they had a quietness that I'd appreciate now - if not then.
Yeah, me too. Perhaps you need to move to a nice quiet parish, where they're allowed to open on Sundays but choose not to. (-:
do these have a special place in the lords where they get to vote on legislation?
Too right! Mentioned this in the previous thread.The head of state in the UK is the head of the Church of England(the Queen not DC) and all that constitutional guff that goes with it.But we live in a parliamentary democracy so if there was the public appetite for it then we could get rid.
nick - rationality is accepting things on evidence. Faith is belief without evidence.
Being rational is not a moral judgement. Its a statement of fact. No religious belief can be rational - indeed in the Christian religion this is implicit in the teachings - " without faith I am nothing" - there was no pejorative intent in that particularly.
So I am not assuming moral superiority - that I am a better person - for being rational, whereas the Christian faith it is implicit that those who believe are better people. Its this assumption of moral superiroity that drives the predjudice inherent in chrstianity.
Its unpleasant to be told you are of less value and a lessor being because you don't believe
Yeah, me too. Perhaps you need to move to a nice quiet parish, where they're allowed to open on Sundays but choose not to. (-:
Does such a place exist? Sounds like.... heaven. 😉
Hilldodger - when they do not attempt to tell me what I can and cannot do bemuse of their beliefs then fine.
whereas the Christian faith it is implicit that those who believe are better people.
bullshit. I know of not a single Christian who believes they are better than people who don't believe, not a single one. They might want to push their particular viewpoint or have an opinion that should be listened to but that applies to many different sorts of people.
Its unpleasant to be told you are of less value and a lessor being because you don't believe
I can only conclude that you have met some very unpleasant Christians because I cannot imagine someone calling you a lesser being - ever
No one tells you what to do, everything is possible but not everything is benificial.
So freedom of speech as long as it's something you don't disagree with TJ?
Are you referring to (the minority of) religious extremists or the entire population who hold religious beliefs ?
And rationality is subjective and relative and without morality is a recipe for untold horror.
Edit-Not that Christians have a monoply on morality!
Leffeboy - it is implicit and very obvious from the outside - look at the quotes from stevewhyte for examples. Its not bullshit its the truth.
You may not want to see it but is absolutely central to religion that they are superior for believing.
The patronising and condesending attitude is because of this assumption of superiority. otherwise why the drive to convert? to evangelise? Emphasis of sinners repenting?
FFS.
TJ, I begin to think that you have some serious issues. I mean, seriously. Why do you waste so much time and effort on arguments on an insignificant bike forum? Have you ever stopped to ask yourself that?
I know that others do it too, and God knows I spout more than my fair share of waffle, but you just KEEP ON ARGUING!
Stop it.
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hilldodger - MemberSo freedom of speech as long as it's something you don't disagree with TJ?
Are you referring to (the minority of) religious extremists or the entire population who hold religious beliefs ?
All religious.
Nope - like all freedoms it is limited by the need not to impinge upon anyone elses freedom.
Do racists have unlimited freedom to espouse their views? No. Should the religious? No - the limits should be the same - you can do what yo want so long as it does not limit someone elses freedom. when you want to tell me what I can and cannot do because of your religion then that is to be rejected.
Kenny - "Rational mindset" is not making a moral judgement. Its a statement of fact. Religion is not rational by definition - its a matter of faith.
Unfortunately the context in which you used the phrase was one could could come across as being of a similar nature to that which you criticise.
leffeboy - Member
because I cannot imagine someone calling you a lesser being - ever
well certainly not on the basis of disagreeing with their Christian beliefs and values.
My understanding of the teachings of Jesus are of tolerance, humility and forgiveness. I cannot see anything offensive, patronising or demeaning in any of these virtues.....
The patronising and condesending attitude is because of this assumption of superiority. otherwise why the drive to convert? to evangelise? Emphasis of sinners repenting?
Lets not get things (any more)mixed up here.
Some religions and some sects of Christianity don't prosetelyse.
Sinners repenting is about acknowledging wrongdoing-which is a good thing surely? You can argue the toss about what"wrongdoing" actually is but the general principle is correct Restorative justice is oft mentione d on here....
You may not want to see it but is absolutely central to religion that they are superior for believing.
It really isn't central to religion that they are superior, not it any way. I can see how you might see it that way but I know of not a single Christian who takes that point of view. To them what is central is that there is a God and that they would like to work out what that means for them and how they live. I don't know of any who think they have it right
otherwise why the drive to convert?
Simples - they think they have found out something rather significant and want to share it. There are no points for getting 'converts'. They just want to pass on something rather fine that they have found out. Sort of like 'PSA: God exists' rather than 'repent or die'
You may not want to see it but is absolutely central to religion that they are superior for believing.
Reading the posts on here I'm afraid it's the aethiests to come across as believing they are superior. And that's not through some implicit interpretation; it's from explicit statements.
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law"
So TJ, your issue is with how a set of beliefs is espoused by some of those who follow them rather than the beliefs themselves ?
Do you honestly see any harm or offense in the principles of love for your fellow man, humility and forgiveness ?
Does such a place exist? Sounds like.... heaven.
I see what you did there. (-:
Lefgfeboy - can you not see it?
they think they have found out something rather significant and want to share it.
thats the assumption of superiority.
Kenny - every statement from the religious shows this - its absolutely central to religion that its adherents are better people.
Its so normal to you that you cannot see it - can't see the wood for the trees.
Hilldodger - I see much harm in the assumption or moral superiority, hatred and prejudice that religions espouse.
#right - I can feel the banhammer hovering over me again. I am forbidden to argue on here effectively nowadays. So I will back out and not even answer any more direct questions
TandemJeremy - Memberthats the assumption of superiority.
...every statement from the religious shows this
well the one below certainly doesn't
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven"
Where do you get this "better people" from?
Do you feel left out?
