Having played about snapping with my RX100 during restrictions, I'm up for trying a used DSLR (having tried mirrorless before, it's not different enough to the Sony I don't think).
My BiL has a EOS 600D which at <£200 (eBay) with the kit lens, and a slight upgrade on image quality, seems a good place to start.
Any retailers or other cameras/specs to recommend?
Going against the Nikon/Canon usual, I love my Olympus E-30.Its an older model now, but will be a better camera than I am photographer for another 10 years+. And its size - a lot smaller than the eqivalent Canons.
Other newer, more feature packed Olympus models are available too. Not the range of accessories available from the big 2, but this one suits me.
Ffordes and Park Cameras are relaible sellers.
MPB is a reputable used place and they have lots of stock but will obviously be a bit higher price than eBay.
Wish I hadn't looked as an excellent condition 5D for £300 is tempting!
If coming from what you and want maximum change (without going crazy and thinking film camera etc) I'd be looking for something maximum user control and ability to experiment with lenses.
For me a line I wouldn't cross would be two control wheels - one for shutter speed and a second for aperture. A small thing but I couldn't imagine shooting handheld in manual without both. The lower end models don't tend to have this.
Then I'd be going for a brand/lens mount that is popular enough that there are plentiful good quality third party lenses available secondhand. I've got a set of Art series Sigma lenses of f2.8 throughout their zoom range for my Nikon and a single 50mm prime. The Sigmas are great for IQ and the speed just adds to the creativity - which is why you'd want to go DSLR from what you have. I could no way have justified the money of the same from Nikon.
Also think a little about if you might fancy video too - if definitely not that makes the decision easier.
With the budget I'd be going for a mirrorless dslr equivalent now, mainly to reduce pack size on expeditions a little bit. But the cost is prohibitive at the moment.
For me a line I wouldn’t cross would be two control wheels – one for shutter speed and a second for aperture. A small thing but I couldn’t imagine shooting handheld in manual without both. The lower end models don’t tend to have this.
This is a top tip to bear in mind if you’re interested in anything other than snapping away with a big camera.
Also, don’t worry about megapixels - once you get past about 12 it’s diminishing returns. I say that as someone who has just spent their gov grant on a medium format system.
If you buy into something like Nikon then any lenses you buy are likely to remain useful as you upgrade. Camera bodies come and go, lenses hang around forever.
We've bought from MBP this year.
Son needed a DSLR for college photography course. He spent £320 and got an 'excellent' condition, fully boxed etc Nikon D7000 and two lenses, a Nikon 50mm and Sigma zoom.
I've also got an ancient Pentax K100d that is brilliant, cost me £62 on eBay and I bought a manual 50mm lens that's 50 years old, for £22.
There's a lot of second hand choice with MBP. The vast majority are going to be better cameras than I am photographer - just pick one with good reviews.
Just go for whichever second hand canon dslr fits budget.
The reality is the lenses make more difference than the body. Unfortunately, lenses continue to be expensive with one exception. Canon do a highly regarded 50mm f1.8 that you can pick up cheap. Worth doing.
I'm tempted by an EOS M series body and lens, would fit into a hip pack easily - M3 with the 22mm pancake lens can be had well under £300.
Just go for whichever second hand canon dslr fits budget.
The reality is the lenses make more difference than the body
Do look at Pentax then. The vast majority of the lenses they make are backwards compatible. They also all have in-body stabilisation, again taking pressure off lens choice.
Plus many are water and dust proof.
+1 for MBP
Canon do a highly regarded 50mm f1.8
Don't bother with the kit lens, whilst the focal range is useful it's a bit slow and compared to the bargain 1.8 50mm it's night and day.
I've had 2 of the 1.8s which I got new both times for around £80. They are a little plasticy but take great photos for the money.
I've a mirrorless Fuji X-T1 and having come from a 'proper' dSLR I can say that there's very little difference between proper dSLR and a SLR-style body with a decent EVF. The Fuji X-T series bodies are SLR-shaped, with lots of control dials, interchangable lenses, and excellent electronic viewfinders. They're just potentially smaller than SLRs (my X-T1 and lens is much smaller and lighter than the old Canon 40D and comparable lens) and have less moving parts to break.
Ah the nifty fifty. Great lens. I have an old 30D which I tried to sell a couple of times. Still a very capable camera. It's in the cupboard gathering dust at the moment.
Thanks all. I used an SLR in my teens and am told having info in the viewfinder and dials for control are significant benefits to mirrorless.
Pentax seems a good shout (I learnt on my late dad's Spotmatic). I have been offered the 600D for the weekend so I'll try that (or make a beer influenced purchase later!).
I like my Pentax k5. They are fairly cheap on eBay now. All Pentax SLR take the same lenses so with any modern DSLR you can use the old manual Pentax lenses. The Pentax DSLR bodies are image stabilised so that also makes the lenses cheaper.
I've got a 60D and an rx100.
I would say that the difference isn't actually that great. It's the zoom range that limits the rx100. Since getting the rx100, I haven't taken the DSLR out on a trip. I use it for studio stuff mainly now.
When you get into low light conditions the Canon is slightly ahead, but the Sony and Nikon cameras at the same price are even better. I bought the 60D to use partly as a video camera and it is really good at that.
Good that you can get a loan - that will help you see if it's for you
I’ve a mirrorless Fuji X-T1 and having come from a ‘proper’ dSLR I can say that there’s very little difference between proper dSLR and a SLR-style body with a decent EVF. The Fuji X-T series bodies are SLR-shaped, with lots of control dials, interchangable lenses, and excellent electronic viewfinders. They’re just potentially smaller than SLRs (my X-T1 and lens is much smaller and lighter than the old Canon 40D and comparable lens) and have less moving parts to break.
My wallet is going to hate you.
Lenses seem a bit pricier than the canon equivalent for the XF lenses though, roughly £380 for a body and 27mm pancake lens combo.
Just to add a bit of info regarding MPB regarding their used kit ratings; definitely don’t be put off by “well used” or high shutter counts, particularly on pro bodies like the Canon 1 series or 5 series. These bodies were built to last, and a few scuffs and scratches make no difference at all.
Same with high shutter counts on these bodies - 100k is nothing to be concerned about unless you plan on taking a huge amount of images. Recently I have owned a 170k 1d4, 140k 5d2, 130k 1dX and 100k 5d3. That’s probably approaching £18k when new, I paid less than £3k for the lot and got some money back when selling on. I think all these were rated “well used”, but have been great, and I probably take upwards of 20,000 shots a year.
My one line suggestion for a cheap body would be a Canon 5d2. Bombproof, full manual but with custom presets and dust cleaning.
Then bung as much money as you can at a lens or two, that is where the real image difference can be seen.
Pssst. Anyone want a Canon 70-200 L f4 is before it goes to MPB....?
Depending on which RX100 you have will depend on if an older dslr is better or not. Also think about size, an RX100 will fit in a bag on any occasion, a dslr is a choice whether you take it or not. Even the mirrorless cameras are big with good lenses.
If you are looking for better gear then lenses are where you need to invest. Whether that is canon or nikon or sony or fuji. An Xt2 with a 16-55 lens will do everything. A sony A7 will get you into full frame cheaply and then you can invest in lenses. There are some very good sigma lenses. Are you planning on photographer everything or mainly mountain bikes?
I used to have a RX100 then upgraded to an A7. Lenses were expensive so I swapped ti Fuji. Now I just have an XT3 and 16-55 2.8. It's a big set up but stops me looking for more gear and does everything.
@cynic-al:
Thanks all. I used an SLR in my teens and am told having info in the viewfinder and dials for control are significant benefits to mirrorless.
SLR-style mirrorless cameras have viewfinders and dials. Modern DLSRs are moving to less dials and touchscreens too. The viewfinders are electronic, but 'proper' optical viewfinders can't increase the brightness of an image to reflect the exposure that will be captured, or show the effect of shutter speed, or highlight regions that are over-exposed.
@ta11pau1:
Lenses seem a bit pricier than the canon equivalent for the XF lenses though, roughly £380 for a body and 27mm pancake lens combo.
Fuji lenses are a bit pricy but they're pretty much all excellent, no duds to avoid. Also there are compatible lenses like Viltrox which are good/cheaper, and Sigma just announced that it's going to start releasing Fuji X-mount lenses.
Thanks @rossburton, looks interesting but a bit spendy at this stage.
Following up to the myth that "mirrorless doesn't have dials or viewfinders":
There's another dial and button on the front too.
My son's Panasonic GX7 is covered in dials too, and micro-4/3 lenses can be very cheap, so that's another good option too.
Following up to the myth that “mirrorless doesn’t have dials or viewfinders”:
Is that a myth? Not one I've ever heard before.
DSLR style Mirrorless cameras need a new name to differentiate them from pretty much every other camera on the market that is not an SLR. It can get confusing in conversation. When I say the word mirrorless I think of something like a Sony A7rIV (and start drooling). When others think mirrorless they think of a pocketable point and shoot (with considerably fewer dials and mostly no viewfinder).
Hi Al,
I've got a Nikon D5200 that used to belong to my Father. Probably a wide angle zoom as well.
PM me if you're interested.
Donald
OMD E M1 at £274 plus the 14-42mm EZ pancake lens at £150 seems good value, that was a £1000+ body when it launched!!
God dammit the budget creep sets in again, I was only looking at a EOS M and 22mm pancake before...
TLR
price for the canon 70-200 L?
I just got a 100D and need a decent lens
I like birds and animals photos mostly
If I was going full size SLR it would 100% be a 5D classic (Mk1) and 50mm 1.8 to start me off, brilliant combo and the 5D mk1 is known for it's 'filmic' image quality with the full frame sensor.
I'm fan of Pentax cameras, they've used the same lens system for ages so you can buy older lenses and they still fit and work. I haven't checked with the latest ones but they used all have the image stabilisation built into the camera so any old lens you added had optical stabilisation rather than spending extra on a fancy new one and even the budget stuff has a good level of weather protection.
Bookmarking this thread, as I will be in the market for one in a few months so useful info for me.
Depending on which RX100 you have will depend on if an older dslr is better or not.
IME ‘better’ ultimately depends on what criteria you are making comparisons.
I’ve owned a number of olderCanon EOS DSLRs and an RX100. Never enjoyed using the RX100 but was impressed by the IQ for a compact zoom
My (situational) findings simply based on what I would choose:
Action/Sports? DSLR
Portrait? DSLR
Pocketability? RX100
Bokeh? DSLR
Macro? DSLR
Wildlife? DSLR
Creativity? DSLR
Street photography? RX100
Versatility? RX100
Video? RX100 (unless DSLR supports)
Weddings/events? Both (RX100 for backup/candids)
Battery/frames per charge? DSLR
Low light? Both
Usability ie hardware? DSLR
Usability ie menus/UI? DSLR
Usability ie wifi/social media? RX100 (from mk2 onwards)
Ruggedness? DSLR
IQ/RAW normally DSLR based on 5DMKii, but RX100 is a performer unless pixelpeeping.
go compare side by side (choose RAW on dropdowns)
What makes something ‘better’ I would say all depends upon what you want from a camera and which compromises you can live with <- Sounds suspiciously like a ‘what bike’ thread... 😉
Pentax always make innovative cameras and the most recent full frame models are fantastic value for money new. The lenses are always great too - the only trouble with choosing them as a second hand system is the reduced number available compared to Nikon / Canon.
OP be sure to confirm shutter count/shutter life of any used DSLR
That's just reminded me, I've got an old Canon 1000D stuck in a drawer somewhere. My dad bought it new but couldn't use it due to poor eyesight, think I've only used it a few times too. Must dig it out and see if I still have all the bits for it. Pretty sure the battery died from lack use though.
I have an RX100
If you want different (I did too) then perhaps rather than a DSLR, go for a cheapish mirrorless like X-E2, X-T2 etc and some funky manual focus lenses. Most mirrorless systems have focus peaking and other manual focus aids which are harder to come by for a reasonable price in a DSLR. Then with a few cheapo adapters from K&F Concepts ebay and charity shops (once open) are your oyster.
I bought an X-E2 in basically unused condition for £200 from MPB, loads of dials and a 7 Artisans 35mm 1.2 for £60, aperture dial on ebay which was also basically unused. Then I got a couple of adapters (M42 and Pentax) and well.....there is a whole new world of bokeh, swirls and ridiculous macro stuff for £20 quid a pop! Just today I had a Soligor 28-80 Macro drop through the letterbox. The thing weighs more than a ton, built like a tank, i think the metal screw in lens cap weighs more than my phone but WOW it has no fungus or haze despite being 40 years old and takes some pretty nice shots. £15 plus postage from ebay!
I picked up a Pentax KS-2 which si a quirky but decent camera from MPB last week to replace my K-50 which just suffered a fault. It was £229 and is a great camera for the money.
Not much to add other than picked up a 2nd hand Canon 50D on here a few years ago for £200 inc kit lens and some extras. Have since picked up a nifty 50, an 18-135 and a 24-105 EF series lens too... Rarely use it these days sadly, but it still soldiers on and returns some incredible results!
Thanks everyone, just pushed the button on a GX7 and 12-32, seems the best EVF 4/3 camera around that price.
^
(having tried mirrorless before, it’s not different enough to the Sony I don’t think).
Oof 😉
Good reviews, it should be fun and looks easy enough to carry around?
This may be useful:
Cheers. When I made that comment I didn't know that mirrorless were getting so close to DSLR. Thanks for the link, I may well be going for random lenses in time.
^
random lenses
I must admit to having hope for a day when can afford a camera to help me spend hours in boot sales and charity shops looking for obscure yet brilliant lens treasures!
For me a line I wouldn’t cross would be two control wheels – one for shutter speed and a second for aperture. A small thing but I couldn’t imagine shooting handheld in manual without both.
This. Even my (Pentax) compact zoom (which replaced the dead RX100) I partly chose because it has a few control wheels (aperture/assignable + exposure comp)
The only reason I stick with my old bulky DSLRs is for the reasons you mention. OK, that and maybe addicted to the simple ground-glass optical finder. I suspect I’m a ‘purist’ (in that respect) but a menu-driven/touch-screen operating style is sort of the ‘anti-photography’
Peering through ground glass at a clear image and just breathing steadily while your fingers knowing exactly where to select the shutter speed and aperture (as second nature) is a joy to me. It’s superbly satisfying IME, and a single prime (50mm) lens I’ve found has been a joy for decades. It’s this that makes me realise that some people are attracted to DSLR more for lens-variety, while others for some kind of ‘purity’ (not enjoying that word, I think mean ‘stripped back/less-distracting’)
I’m not wedded to a viewfinder though. Also enjoy the articulated screen on this 12mp compact for low level shots shooting from the waist/hip - almost as if I have an old twin lens reflex 😎 (I think I still have a Kodak Duaflex somewhere)
This looking down option is perfect for street photography. But, ultimately nothing for me beats being ‘lost’ in the roomy ground-glass finder of a ‘barebones’, ergonomic DSLR. That, and limited by a 50mm prime lens. Weird old stick
Anyone here tried the hybrid (OVF/EVF/ERF?) viewfinders in the Fujifilm X100 something? That’s been on my bucket list for years now but yet to try one out even.
Bookmarking this for future - Just wasted spent 10mins browsing on MPB at Canon bodies and fancy a 5D mk2.
Currently have an old 350d body languishing in a drawer. Tend to just use my EOS M with 22mm to chuck in the bag most of the time, but have wanted a better body for fullsize DSLR for a while.
@p7eaven The hybrid X100* viewfinder is worth a look, although the electronic overlay is a distraction compared with a classic rangefinder Leica M* or Canon model 7 etc.
The full frame viewfinders of pro classic 35mm SLR cameras are just amazing compared with the peephole consumer dslr viewfinders , worth having a peek if you can then finding a pro DSLR with a similar screen if you can.
Nice to see the nanny with the Rollie , a really amazing story behind that picture:
VIVIANMAIER.COM I have a Pentax KS-2 which I bought 6 years ago for a walking holiday in Yosemite - well, that was the excuse. Compact with a foldaway standard lens, weatherproof, two control wheels, and lenses from the 80's (although obviously not the autofocus bit) as they kept the same mount. Fab little camera. People with big hands may not like it, as it is a bit on the dinky side, but then again I find the controls just fall under my fingers whereas Canon cameras just seem, well, wrong somehow.
I find the controls just fall under my fingers whereas Canon cameras just seem, well, wrong somehow.
TBH, I think this is where the real difference is in cameras these days. Most if not all high end camera are very good and there isn't too much in it. Really its about how the camera feels and if the UI and button layout suits you or not. Sure a serious amateur or pro will have genuine reasons to go for one model over the other due to image differences but I think for most consumers its hard to buy a bad camera or even a mediocre camera, they are all pretty good.
Update!
The GX7 arrived and seemed pretty good, but there was a mark somewhere in the lens or CCD so it's going back.
While the compactness of it was great, it felt a bit tricky to handle with my big hands. I may look into something a bit bigger but not full DSLR size. Pentax does appeal.
Go big or go home 🙂
