[Closed] US gun violence

Is there anything that [i]isn't[/i] a left wing conspiracy?

Is there anything that isn't a left wing conspiracy?

Anti-clockwise air travel?

When you include 99.9% of the world as left wing it has to be

It's fairly simple, lots of guns means a lot of people get shot. All the guns in the hands of criminals were at one point legal firearms, there isn't a big company making guns to sell to criminals.

Well said, it’s a sentiment that’s been spectacularly popular on the British political left for years - see John Pilger as as example.

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It's a downward spiral really. People don't feel safe (which I find amazing), which means they get a gun, which means lots of people have guns, which makes people feel less safe, which means people get more guns and bigger guns, which make people feel even less safe. Then one day you have an altercation with someone in the street and instead of a verbal altercation, maybe turning to a bit of fisty-cuffs, because people have guns they get drawn and waved about and ultimately this will result in people squeezing off a few rounds and people dyeing. It is inevitable. By the pure fact you carry a gun increases your chances of getting shot.

guns in the hands of angry and scared people is never ever a good thing.

What I find amazing is the trigger happiness of the authorities. I was shocked when in the aftermath of the Boston Marathon bombings the Police allowed an open shoot out with the bad guys to happen in a suburb with people having to take cover in their won homes as bullets came wizzing in through their windows and walls. Unbelievable incompetence. They should have contained the situation and tracked them out of any built up area before they had their Spaghetti Western shoot out. Just utterly bonkers. They all must imagine they're in some sort of movie or something. Living out some kind of fantasy in their heads.

mikewsmith - Member
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/
Why can't you? a prevalence of guns is the issue. It leads to more guns with people who are scared of filling their petrol tanks, it leads to cops with more reason to shoot unarmed australian women in their PJ's, it leads to more and more dead people

Because it's the same as saying we should ban all knives due to 4 people being killed in London and 5 killed in Sheffield in the same night, it was crime, if it wasn't a knife it would have been a baseball bat or hammer.

You can't just add two unrelated statistics together because you want to prove a point

Because it's the same as saying we should ban all knives due to 4 people being killed in London and 5 killed in Sheffield in the same night, it was crime, if it wasn't a knife it would have been a baseball bat or hammer.

You can't just add two unrelated statistics together because you want to prove a point

Or a gun, if they had access to them?

akira - Member
It's fairly simple, lots of guns means a lot of people get shot. All the guns in the hands of criminals were at one point legal firearms, there isn't a big company making guns to sell to criminals.

That's a massive over simplification (and blatantly not true), outside of the USA most illegal firearms are imported, easily proved by the fact that we're not allowed the types being used over here (and never have been), a lot are ex military weapons that have never been in the hands of a LEGAL gun owner.

My other hobbies include firearms which people keep trying to clamp down on, do you know how many people were killed by legally owned semi-automatic rifles before Michael Ryan went on the rampage - NONE, do you know how many were killed with LEGAL pistols before Thomas Hamilton? Again NONE

The easiest way to make the place safer isn't to target legally owned firearms but to actually enforce a proper sentence on the criminals using them

Because it's the same as saying we should ban all knives due to 4 people being killed in London and 5 killed in Sheffield in the same night, it was crime, if it wasn't a knife it would have been a baseball bat or hammer.

You can't just add two unrelated statistics together because you want to prove a point

I'm fairly sure there already are laws stopping you from carrying a knife around town and restricting their sale, but y'know, carry on with that argument if you want.

You can't just add two unrelated statistics together because you want to prove a point

In a discussion about the relationship between gun ownership and deaths from bullets being fired from said guns, they’re not unrelated statistics I’m afraid.

IdleJon - Member
Because it's the same as saying we should ban all knives due to 4 people being killed in London and 5 killed in Sheffield in the same night, it was crime, if it wasn't a knife it would have been a baseball bat or hammer.
You can't just add two unrelated statistics together because you want to prove a point
Or a gun, if they had access to them?

quiet possibly but it would be an illegally held firearm that no amount of licensing (or banning) would stop it getting into their hands after all murder is illegal and that didn't stop them, I was showing that people will kill and its not the tool used that needs banning

deadlydarcy - Member
You can't just add two unrelated statistics together because you want to prove a point
In a discussion about the relationship between gun ownership and deaths from bullets being fired from said guns, they’re not unrelated statistics I’m afraid.

errr yes they are unrelated if the bullet didn't come from the same 'said' gun and no amount of typing "I'm afraid" changes that, you're obviously allergic to facts and have a preconceived argument

prawny - Member
Because it's the same as saying we should ban all knives due to 4 people being killed in London and 5 killed in Sheffield in the same night, it was crime, if it wasn't a knife it would have been a baseball bat or hammer.
You can't just add two unrelated statistics together because you want to prove a point

I'm fairly sure there already are laws stopping you from carrying a knife around town and restricting their sale, but y'know, carry on with that argument if you want.

So why would a law banning guns (which there is about the types being used) stop the shooting? so yeah we'll stick with that point thanks

Good grief. U ok hun?

So why would a law banning guns

Who’s asking for guns to be banned?

deadlydarcy - Member
Good grief. U ok hun?

yes thanks sweetie

So why would a law banning guns (which there is about the types being used) stop the shooting?

It has though hasn't it, generally speaking, there are fewer guns over here, and fewer gun deaths, there are other reasons obviously, it's not black and white, but its definitely a contributing factor.

I could shoot you if I had a gun, but I don't, so I can't.

yes thanks sweetie

You seem angry. You don’t have a gun do you?

Knock out suicides (they’re going to find a way anyway)

prawny - Member
So why would a law banning guns (which there is about the types being used) stop the shooting?
It has though hasn't it, generally speaking, there are fewer guns over here, and fewer gun deaths, there are other reasons obviously, it's not black and white, but its definitely a contributing factor.

I could shoot you if I had a gun, but I don't, so I can't.

I kind of agree BUT you probably could get one if you were 'desperate' to (not saying you are lol) and if you did have one legally the vetting process is quiet strict (over here anyway) I'd feel pretty safe on the range next to you as I know that you've been through the police (and medical) checks

I do and several of my friends have them, and we're no risk BUT constantly under more pressure and legislation.

What I'm trying to say is that the targeting legal owners doesn't achieve anything

deadlydarcy - Member
yes thanks sweetie
You seem angry. You don’t have a gun do you?

hahahaha yes several but not angry, just get these type of statistics far too often lol

What I'm trying to say is that the targeting legal owners doesn't achieve anything

I'm fairly sure that's an oversimplification at best.

It may well be true for the UK, in so far as guns are pretty rare and legal owners tend to buy shotguns for clay pigeons rather than assault rifles for home dee-fense, so targeting legal owners here is pretty pointless.

But you can't hold us up as a mirror to the US. There's plenty of legal gun owners who wouldn't go to Wal-Mart without a Glock in their pocket. My ex-girlfriend has a gun for protection whilst she's working; she's an accountant.

Cougar - Moderator

But you can't hold us up as a mirror to the US. There's plenty of legal gun owners who wouldn't go to Wal-Mart without a Glock in their pocket. My ex-girlfriend has a gun for protection whilst she's working; she's an accountant.

Now that I DO agree on... untrained people carrying firearms in public 😮 , even if something did happen the adrenaline of the situation would have them firing everywhere

Last year my cousin (lives in Alabama) got tied up with an electric cord on her bed, by a neighbour who broke in, while he robbed her flat. She got free of the cord while he was in the kitchen, grabbed her gun and shot him dead.

we're not that close so I've not asked about it, just saw a link to the news story on FB and people asking if she was ok, but get the feeling she would have been in a very horrible situation if she hadn't got free...

No idea if that means guns are good or bad, but I'm glad she had one, and I'm glad I live in a country where they are very rare.

TBH, I didn't even know any of my "American" family owned guns until that day.

Now that I DO agree on... untrained people carrying firearms in public

Fortunately most Americans don't own a gun.
It's a tiny minority of multiple gun owning nutcases that keep your death toll so high.

grenosteve - Member

Last year my cousin (lives in Alabama) got tied up with an electric cord on her bed, by a neighbour who broke in, while he robbed her flat.

Lucky the neighbour didn't have a gun, or find her gun. 💡

I was showing that people will kill and its not the tool used that needs banning

Licensing and restricting firearms would reduce the flow to the criminals.
A classic example is Chicago.
The gun nuts go on about the number of shootings there and the fact it has strict gun laws as being a case against gun laws.
However they skip over the minor detail that less than an hour down the road they have some of the slackest gun laws in the country. So there is a constant supply of "legal" guns.

Now that I DO agree on... untrained people carrying firearms in public , even if something did happen the adrenaline of the situation would have them firing everywhere

Quite. And that's a Problem. I expect most people with guns in the US believe that they're a good shot (see also, "above average driver") and many will think they're the ghost of John Rambo. But even if reasonably competent, a lot of people would go to pieces in an actual firefight.

You'll never rid America of guns for the simple reason that all other things aside they just really really [i]like[/i] them. But I reckon having a mandatory training course to get them to a decent standard and teach them about things like safe storage would be a big help. The notion that in some states you can just pick one up along with a gallon of milk is just looney tunes.

get the feeling she would have been in a very horrible situation if she hadn't got free...

She'd have been burgled and wouldn't have someone's death on her conscience for the rest of her life. Beyond that it's guesswork and American "thank god I had a gun" logic.

Fortunately most Americans don't own a gun.
It's a tiny minority of multiple gun owning nutcases that keep your death toll so high.

There's truth here. Guns:people in the US is about 1:1, but gun ownership is about a quarter of the population.

This is interesting though:

https://qz.com/1095899/gun-ownership-in-america-in-three-charts/

[i]"The average American gun owner owns three guns, according to a 2015 survey conducted by Harvard and Northwestern University. More than a half of them own just one or two, whereas 14% of them–7.7 million or 3% of the US population–own anywhere between eight to 140 guns. [b]This 3% of the population owns half of the civilian guns in the US.[/b]"[/i]

My brother in Michigan sometimes sends me long emails agonising about several aspects of life in the USA, mostly his wife's irrational behaviour and insecurity and Americans' love of guns. He reckons the Wild West is still fresh in the psyches of Americans, most of whom are only a few generations descended from Europeans who fled persecution or poverty to establish a new life, which they did by killing indigenous Americans and taking their land by force.

Cougar - Moderator

But I reckon having a mandatory training course to get them to a decent standard and teach them about things like safe storage would be a big help.

Always seems to me like this is the button to push- the "responsible gun owner" line, "So you want a gun to defend your family? Good for you! But it takes more than just a gun to defend your family, you need to know how to use it safely, you need to know how to keep your family safe from it". You could have a video delivered by Captain America to really drive the point home.

But the trouble is, the definition of "responsible gun owner" seems to be "all gun owners who haven't yet gone on a killing spree". You even hear the line trotted out after accidental shootings- "X has been a responsible gun owner for 10 years, today there was a tragic accident where her son shot her baby" So even that might be a hard thing to reset.

Me, I don't accept "it can't be fixed"- it'll take a long time but then it took a long time to get all these guns into circulation in the first place. It's not impossible, it's just very hard. As soon as you stop the flow of legitimately bought firearms and ammunition into the market things start to choke. And "only criminals will have guns" is exactly the point, you no longer have to wait for a person with a gun to murder someone before you can arrest them, they're a criminal just for having the gun so you can arrest them on the way

Also, I absolutely hate when people say "discounting suicides", as if they just don't matter. And similiarly, the number of times you see "black on black" as a synonym for "gang related" and therefore also ignorable is flat out disgusting.

Also, I absolutely hate when people say "discounting suicides", as if they just don't matter. And similiarly, the number of times you see "black on black" as a synonym for "gang related" and therefore also ignorable is flat out disgusting.

"The average American gun owner owns three guns, according to a 2015 survey conducted by Harvard and Northwestern University. More than a half of them own just one or two, whereas 14% of them–7.7 million or 3% of the US population–own anywhere between eight to 140 guns. This 3% of the population owns half of the civilian guns in the US."

I don't really have much of an opinion about gun ownership in America. They might share a common language with us but are a different country 4,000 miles away with a totally different culture and mind set on very many things. Not sure why we have this preoccupation with things American.
But owning multiple guns is no different to them than a STW'er owning many different bikes. Different guns for different things, or collectors like we might collect stamps or something, just a hobby.

deker - Member

[b]My other hobbies include firearms which people keep trying to clamp down on[/b], do you know how many people were killed by legally owned semi-automatic rifles before Michael Ryan went on the rampage - NONE, do you know how many were killed with LEGAL pistols before Thomas Hamilton? Again NONE

The easiest way to make the place safer isn't to target legally owned firearms but to actually enforce a proper sentence on the criminals using them

Genuine question, what sort of "firearms" do you own and why?

Aside from sporting pistols for target shooting and a bolt-action rifle or a breech loading shotgun for vermin and game shooting, I can't see any justifiable reason for owing a gun.

EDIT: and to be honest I find the latter two pretty difficult to objectively justify.

I don't really have much of an opinion about gun ownership in America.

You probably should have left it at that.

do you know how many people were killed by legally owned semi-automatic rifles before Michael Ryan went on the rampage - NONE, do you know how many were killed with LEGAL pistols before Thomas Hamilton? Again NONE

Isnt that the point though?

The first time something bad happened we did the responsible thing as a society and made steps to stop it happening? rather than doing nothing and waiting to see if it happens again

I kind of agree BUT you probably could get one if you were 'desperate' to (not saying you are lol)

You could get one if you try hard enough but you have to have a considerable ammount of money and dodgy contacts to get hold of one so makes it a damn sight harder than walking into walmart

Watch Dope on netflix to see how truly ****ed up the US is, its like Mexico. Poverty that looks third world, rampant drug crime and Police Officers who think they are still over in Iraq.

Watch Dope on netflix to see how truly **** up the US is, its like Mexico.

Cop in the first episode made me laugh, when talking about chasing dealers and getting shot at said "if I can stop one kid from smoking weed for the first time it will all be worth it"

no different to them than a STW'er owning many different bikes. Different guns for different things, or collectors like we might collect stamps or something, just a hobby.

Really? So, an armed intruder is threatening my children in my own home, and you think that adrenaline fuelled aggression using one of my bikes or my stamp collection is as dangerous (to everyone) as using my locked and loaded shotgun?

globalti - Member
My brother in Michigan sometimes sends me long emails agonising about several aspects of life in the USA, mostly his wife's irrational behaviour and insecurity and Americans' love of guns. He reckons the Wild West is still fresh in the psyches of Americans, most of whom are only a few generations descended from Europeans who fled persecution or poverty to establish a new life, which they did by killing indigenous Americans and taking their land by force.

Thats true to some extent, even me being an expat and schooled in the UK's system we still had lectures about founding fathers and American Revolution.. it is really ingrained in their society. (we're talking late 70's/early 80's schooling in my case)

Jakester - Member
deker - Member
My other hobbies include firearms which people keep trying to clamp down on, do you know how many people were killed by legally owned semi-automatic rifles before Michael Ryan went on the rampage - NONE, do you know how many were killed with LEGAL pistols before Thomas Hamilton? Again NONE

The easiest way to make the place safer isn't to target legally owned firearms but to actually enforce a proper sentence on the criminals using them

Genuine question, what sort of "firearms" do you own and why?

Aside from sporting pistols for target shooting and a bolt-action rifle or a breech loading shotgun for vermin and game shooting, I can't see any justifiable reason for owing a gun.

EDIT: and to be honest I find the latter two pretty difficult to objectively justify.

ok so first, sporting pistols are banned now (you can legally get modified ones where they have a fixed stock and longer barrel so not sure if that's what you meant). Also with the exception of smallbore rifles (generally rimfire) we can only have bolt action rifles in this country (this never bothers me as it's all I've shot as a civilian).

I have shotguns for both clay and game, clays ones are generally heavier as you may shoot at up to 200 in a day where game ones will be lighter as you could be walking miles and only firing 2 or 3 rounds (so less repetitive impact on your shoulder),I have rifles for both target and game, and again there are different weights and calibres depending on usage, shooting isn't as straight forward as people think (just like cycling) there are many different calibres and aren't always interchangeable ie you wouldn't want someone who does pest control to go out using a rifle designed for deer so you will find owners who have more than one, indeed 4 or 5 for multi-discipline, some ranges are indoor and under 50 yards and some outdoor are between 100 yards and 1000 yards so you would use whichever is more suitable to the discipline (hence the reason I have different calibres cost and accuracy).

At the risk of being hounded for both being a gun owner and admitting I shoot game (I have actually been confronted by people who think meat wasn't an animal) I'll leave what I have at that rather than go into detail of each individual rifle.

However one part of your statement is odd "and to be honest I find the latter two pretty difficult to objectively justify.", my question is why? why is me wanting to own guns and shoot responsibly any different to you wanting to ride a bike on or off the road and drivers\walkers thinking it should be banned (note I'm not comparing shooting to cycling just people wanting hobbies banned)? I get background checked every 5 years and I'd be the first to hand them in if I thought I was a risk or have I misunderstood and you referred to shooting game (if you're vegetarian then I understand)?

I have had a license long enough to have seen changes due to Michael Ryan (which didn't affect me) and Thomas Hamilton (which did affect me) and in all this time I have never had an accident or used them in any way that put others at risk yet I (and other shooters) are persecuted in the press. After Dunblane an MP was live on TV and actually accused the British olympic shooting squad of being murderers in waiting!

Deker

I don't care what Americans do to each other while in the motherland, they accept that it is acceptable to have mass and indiscriminate shootings of innocent human beings?

I have no plans to visit the good old US of A and have told my kids just don't bother. Let em get on.

why is me wanting to own guns and shoot responsibly any different to you wanting to ride a bike

It's not and this is what most people conveniently never talk about (on BOTH sides of the argument).

Shooting guns is fun. Simple as that. It's target practise and something we see worthy enough to include in the Olympics and celebrate when we win gold medals in shooting related events.

Also, I absolutely hate when people say "discounting suicides", as if they just don't matter.

When making that argument, no one is saying that suicide 'doesn't matter', just that conflating two different data points to try add weight to a 'gun violence' debate is wrong. Suicide is tragic but it's not really 'gun violence' in the way that most people would understand it. There are plenty of countries with exceptionally high suicide rates that don't have gun control problems, Japan being one example.

Making broad sweeping generalizations is for **** morons.... sorry to say.

It's interesting that no one has a problem with this. If I said 'all Nigerians were f---ing morons' I'm pretty sure I'd get flamed (and rightly so). Quite why it's acceptable to be so utterly ignorant and biggoted about Americans is just more evidence that this kind of debate is less motivated by objective discourse and more by it being fashionable to attack the great imperial aggressor.

As for the best way to reduce gun violence in the US, almost certainly that would be to reduce the crippling wealth inequality that it does suffer from.

Switzerland has one of the highest gun ownership levels in the entire world, why is it then that they also have one of the lowest rates of gun violence/homicide in the world?

Really? So, an armed intruder is threatening my children in my own home, and you think that adrenaline fuelled aggression using one of my bikes or my stamp collection is as dangerous (to everyone) as using my locked and loaded shotgun?

Of course it's not the same 🙄 the point I was making was that to some Americans owning guns is perfectly normal and natural. Like us owning bikes and having stamp collections. Not sure how that's hard to understand ?