[Closed] The use of cycle lanes.

You are correct.

Arseholes be arseholing

Here is the new advice that's about to come into effect

Rule 61
Cycle Routes and Other Facilities. Cycle lanes are marked by a white line
(which may be broken) along the carriageway (see Rule 140). Use facilities
such as cycle lanes and tracks, advanced stop lines and toucan crossings (see
Rules 62 and 73) where they make your journey safer and easier. This will
depend on your experience and skills and the situation at the time. While such
facilities are provided for reasons of safety, cyclists may exercise their
judgement and are not obliged to use them.

EDIT the old rule was essentially the same but they have just tightened up the wording

And yet meanwhile parking cars on pavements or on cycle paths is apparently perfectly fine, despite this being specifically "MUST NOT" in the HWC.

I think a reasonable proportion of car drivers just do whatever is most convenient for themselves and use whatever random justification they fancy.

Driver was a plonker.  There is also the requirement to pass safely which you moving over 1 ft does not create generally.  I often ride just outside the lines painted on the road to indicate a cycle lane.  Min distance of 1m from a kerb for me perferably 1.5 and that to me is secondary position.

I often ride just outside the lines painted on the road to indicate a cycle lane.

I love the idea that you ride there purely out of belligerence and disdain for car drivers, TJ.

(I realise that there is probably some deeper thought that has gone into this, but I prefer my version)

I will read/refresh on the highway code when I have calmed down!

I don't mean this in a spiky way but, yes, as a road user you probably should.

Glad you're OK, I can only +1 what everyone else has said.

I often ride just outside the lines painted on the road to indicate a cycle lane.

I did one single ever road ride with some bloke called korma or hora or something off the forum many years back.

Despite my protestations he insisted on going out on the A6144 past Carrington etc at rush hour. Refused to take any of the nice little lanes to the left.

As I followed him there were a few occasions where he pulled out rightwards into the middle of the carriageway at junctions, so I followed him. Then he appeared to realise he didn't want to turn right, so pulled back in.
It was only after the fifth or so aborted maneuver that I clocked that he was trying to take the lane each and every time we passed a traffic island/ central refuge.
There was a pretty much constant stream of commuters passing at around 45-50mph including lorries and there are dozens of traffic island.

I am normally a strident advocate of taking the lane under the right circumstances but this was barmy, verging on suicidal. Again I tried to persuade him left into the backroads, but he was having non of it. He continued along the A6144 in a zigzag motion.

In the end, somewhere past Partington we got into a screaming match with some woman in a beamer and I realised how insane it all was.

So I found a side road and went home. Never again to use the A6144 as a recreational cycle route at rush hour.

/ pointless story. When I started writing it it seemed to be of some relevance, but in fact it isn't. Soz 🙂

There is also the requirement to pass safely which you moving over 1 ft does not create generally.

There's also a requirement not to harass or intimidate other road users. I wonder if horse box driver knew about that?

I had a large horse box carrier drive right up my arse and hold down his horn on me

You obviously didn't know who he was! 😂🤣

No, you don't have to use a cycle lane, and I fear the day that ever become compulsory.

If a horse box driver - who presumably has some knowledge of vulnerable road users - tried to intimidate me on the road, I'd have their registration all over social media in a flash.

It was only after the fifth or so aborted maneuver that I clocked that he was trying to take the lane each and every time we passed a traffic island/ central refuge.

I'm not sure as I understand this. "Take the lane"?

It sounds to me like what you're describing is adopting the primary position - moving to the centre of the lane - to prevent overtaking when it is unsafe for cars to pass. Such as, when passing traffic islands. Then moving back in to allow traffic to pass when that's not the case. This is defensive cycling and is the correct thing to do, it stops people overtaking with inches of clearance.

Of course, if there was plenty of space to overtake and he was just obstructing traffic then yes, he was an arse. I wasn't there and it's wholly possible I've misunderstood what you're describing.

There are plenty of painted on cycleways where I am. Invariably horrendous broken and patched tarmac with potholes and often cars parked on them. No way you would ride them on a road bike, it would be actually dangerous at times.

Likewise knackered old narrow pavements signed as 'shared use', and apparently two way, even though hardly wide enough for a pushchair. You'd need a MTB to ride them too.

I ride in the carriageway and still have to move out (after checking) to avoid the worst of it at times.

It's really not good enough if 'they' want people to active travel as well as get physical exercise. The finding and standards exist to out it right , but sadly not usually the local political drive to risk upsetting motorists. See all the spaces for people stuff being removed, or not even getting out in in the first place because cars rule.

we got into a screaming match with some woman in a beamer 

BMW drivers usually are quite aggressive. Not all, but most the time when I have a tailgater or someone generally being an idiot, they're in a BMW. Or Rangerover. Or BMW that looks like a Rangerover. Those ones are a new kind of special.

I love the idea that you ride there purely out of belligerence and disdain for car drivers, TJ.

🙂  My riding style ( bear in mind this is all urban riding) would sit on the boundary between assertive and aggressive

I ride primary a lot, secondary its at least a metre from the kerb because of all the tourists stepping off the kerb etc.  Most of the on road painted cycle lanes are so narrow that  riding within them your handlebar end is hovering over the kerb.  Usually around 60 cm wide the on road cycle lanes

If a horse box driver – who presumably has some knowledge of vulnerable road users

This is a very good point.

Aye, but it’s horsey people who aren’t noted for an underdeveloped sense of entitlement.

If you’ve got the plate report it to the police.

My riding style ( bear in mind this is all urban riding) would sit on the boundary between assertive and aggressive

"I ride like I post...." 😎

Just to add some Karma to the thread, I had a really wide pass from a truck driver todays as I was out for a quick 10 miler at lunch (road bike).

As others have said, there is no requirement to use a cycle lane. If one is available, and it's 'safe' then I'll use it. If it's one full of debris then I won't. The 'not so funny' bit is a mate of mine came off recently using a cycle lane near home due to debris. He was using it to avoid the traffic queues.

I'm based SW London.  Most of the roadside cycle lanes round my way are either full of debris, potholes and standing water.  The shared use ones tend to be either in poor repair or busy with other users and not suitable for usual roadie speeds.

Since the recent investments in cycle infrastructure I've also seen the emergence of cycle lanes planned by gibbering idiots with no clue as to what actually works.  There's a particular stunner near Hampton Court which used to be a painted lane which ran between the road and the marked parked cars on the roadside, whilst not ideal it worked OK. In their wisdom they then moved the cycle lane to the curbside and put the parked cars between the lane and the road where you can bey that car users don't bother to check before opening their door onto the non road side, not only that, but there is now a crossing over the cycle lane to a bus stop and the cycle lane exits directly into a bend which means that you rejoin the road in a place where it narrows round a bend and (due to parked cars) drivers have very limited visibility of cyclists emerging.  To add further insult, it drains terribly and in winter it's full of leaves.

There is a certain amount of irony in a horse box driver getting aggressive by being ever so slightly inconvenienced driving his vulnerable road users around.

Riders take their chance riding on a busy road TBH. Without exoskeleton that chance of damage is higher in an unfortunate event. Perhaps too late if damage is done. I would rid defensively rather than relying on others.

I know cyclists have all the rights to ride on the road, but some of the risk taken is simply suicidal to be honest.

As a driver I am perfectly happy driving behind a cyclist at 20mph (LOL!) or leaving plenty of room for them to ride as I am never in a hurry. But that is not the case with many other drivers as I noticed.

In the far east we are used to moped, scooters etc zigzagging like dare devil and we drive in KMh while in the UK it is in Mph ...

What I also notice is that some cyclists while riding in the dark are wearing dark clothing making it hard for drivers to see. (my reference is especially those food delivery riders). On few occasions I was tempted to let the riders know that s/he was taking risks by not being visible enough but I did not.

Anyway, ride safe as my parents used to say to me as a kid "the cars have no eyes".

hold down his horn

That imo says everything you need to know about the driver..... truly moronic.

IME club road rides always highlight them......you get driver after driver passing in complete silence until the halfwit who wants the world to know that he has a gadget on his car that makes a loud noise comes along.

They don't really annoy me though as I find it reassuring to know that they are clearly annoyed.

The horse box driver might not have been a horse rider, they might have simply been delivering/moving the horse box. Their behaviour suggests a high probability that they weren't.

The ‘not so funny’ bit is a mate of mine came off recently using a cycle lane near home due to debris. He was using it to avoid the traffic queues.

A club mate was told she may not walk again when a driver misjudged a traffic light and catapulted her off a cycle lane and into a hedge. Two years on, she is nervously getting back to road riding, but unlikely to be competing at European level CX for her age group again, sadly.

Dashed white line is an advisory cycle lane. A solid line is mandatory cycle lane.

The interesting bit is that the difference doesn't apply to cyclist, but to other road users. Car can park on an advisory cycle lane, but not in a mandatory one. It makes sense really as you shouldn't cross solid white lines in really simple terms.

As a cyclist, you are entitled to decide where you wish to ride and unless there is a specific prohibition in place, you are free to use the carriageway, cycle lane or not.

Unfortunately, lots of motorist don't know this.

Source: I used to work in local authority and have installed a number of cycle lanes and written the traffic regulation orders that underpinned them. It was a decade ago but there's not been any really change as far as I'm aware.

There’s a particular stunner near Hampton Court

Kingston are a special bunch for sure. The ‘cycle lane’ they’ve been building the last few months on the A240 from Tolworth to Kingston is a bizarre obstacle course. I’ve never seen anyone use it, I certainly don’t.

“I ride like I post….” 😎

New STW t-shirt and sticker, surely?

(With small @tjagain approves this statement).

we drive in KMh while in the UK it is in Mph …

Wait.

Did I just read this correctly? In the UK we drive using miles per hour rather than kilometres, so traffic here is faster?

I have precisely zero issues with it.  Live by the sword and all that.......

Wait.

Did I just read this correctly? In the UK we drive using miles per hour rather than kilometres, so traffic here is faster?

You have 30 mph limit on certain roads while we are happy driving at 30 Kmh ...

Yes, I notice that most of the time people will try to drive up the the speed limit. I get tailgated driving at 25mph on 30 mph limit (even when the road is empty and could over take me easily).

I can assure you that UK drivers do drive fast and can be rather impatient. They particularly take offence at car horn. LOL! In the far east car horn beeping is so common it is a way of life and nobody takes offence at all.

Also why do you lot get so angry when people drive in front of you ("cut in")? LOL! You will be blowing steam out of your ears if you drive in the far east.

p/s: colleague was fuming when a car took a wrong turn and slot in front of him at the traffic light ... crikey ... let the guy in it is Not the end of the world! I had to calm him down.

I’m not sure as I understand this. “Take the lane”?

It sounds to me like what you’re describing is adopting the primary position – moving to the centre of the lane – to prevent overtaking when it is unsafe for cars to pass. Such as, when passing traffic islands. Then moving back in to allow traffic to pass when that’s not the case. This is defensive cycling and is the correct thing to do, it stops people overtaking with inches of clearance.

Hi. No idea where my "take the lane" expression came from. As you say, primary is the usual term for it.
I agree with everything else you say apart from perhaps adding "sometimes" or "often" in this bit

and is the correct thing to do

I take primary a helluva lot, but trust me when I say A6144 is not the place for it.

PS, it's worth highlighting that the simple reason that cycle lanes are not compulsory is that CTC (as was) spotted the impending legislation when it was proposed a dozen years ago and fought against it.

Good people, doing good work.

I'll repeat my rant from a month back. Living in central Manchester I've started to see the roll out of Chris Boardmams cycle network scheme. Some of it is great but unfortunately much of it unridable due to the undulating washboard nature of the surfaces. Mile after mile of shaking your fillings out and I fear prolonged use could induce repetitive strain injury or early onset Parkinson's disease.

I can't be arsed with the hassle of cycling on the (flat) road due to the inevitable conflict with drivers who quite understandably think that cyclists should use the brand new segregated cycle lane that's been built for them at great expense. I've had to find new cycle roites that are not as good as the previous routes I used before the new cycle infrastructure was put in.

Well done to all the contractors used by the council. You're wasting millions of pounds doing an absolutely s*** job, making life worse for both cyclists and motorists.

@inkster Come to Rochdale where there isn’t that problem… because they haven’t built any.

Have you reported it inkster?

I agree with everything else you say apart from perhaps adding “sometimes” or “often” in this bit

Fair. "Usually" then, perhaps?

trust me when I say A6144 is not the place for it.

Again, fair. I don't know the road even remotely.

I had a look at complaining after my post last month, got lost on the council website but might have another go... wish me luck.

I won't hold out much help though, I think it must be a Manchester thing. Having been a council then housing association tenant for years I swear not a single workman or contractor has ever seen a spirit level. I lived with a toilet that leant like the leaning tower of Pisa for years and if I put anything on my window ledges they either fall over or roll off.

They clad the building with insulation and new double glazing, though onced they'd finished you could see daylight between the window frames and the walls, seven floors up! The windows whistle a lovely tune when the wind blows.!

So I've come to see wonkiness as being priced in when any repairs or 'improvements' are implemented in this City....

One of the reasons there's bee so much standing water around where I live (edge of city centre) over the last few years is because many of the drains are blocked by all the rubble and dust from all the building sites. I've seen a tree growing out of one of them! Interestingly, I spent a lot of time in East London surrounded by similar building sites. They swept up every night and hosed the streets down and cleared the draims regularly. Round my way in Manchester, they leave the place looking like Steptoe's Yard when they finish work for the day....

Sorry for the thread deflection!

I won’t hold out much help though, I think it must be a Manchester thing.

Edinburgh as well.  Lovely new segregated cycleway on leith street.  No way to get on it coming north and going south the exit is 18" wide and puts you right in cars blind spots.  At no point on it is it as wide as the minimum in the specifications.  then we also have the delightful painted on the edge of the road ones.  In places under 2 ft wide and then when you reach a junction / narrow bit of road where you really need them they just stop

I had a look at complaining after my post last month, got lost on the council website but might have another go… wish me luck

Good luck

The reason I ask is that I considered it when they "upgraded" the Bridgewater Canal section around 10 years ago. But to my eternal shame I never did. In my mind it was because I knew they wouldn't GaS but perhaps these days it's different.

The canalside surfacing was awful. Hideous ruts and bumps from day 1. Really nasty to ride on anything with a narrowish high pressure tyre.

So depressing how little effort they put into it. But that's Manchester for you.

I think allot of the issue is cycleways are designed by non cyclists and that thee folk who design them find the standards that should be used to difficult to fit in without taking road space - so we get half arsed useless things

so we get half arsed useless things

+1000 nr us they've put in wands segregating part of the road on one side for cyclists, so now that part of the road is inaccessible for road sweepers & is consequently full of leaves which is treacherous especially when frozen

This in a nutshell

folk who design them find the standards that should be used to difficult to fit in without taking road space – so we get half arsed useless things

My job used to involve looking at active travel improvements. The standards required are very clear, apply them and there is funding galore available Our HA would rather just do half arsed tinkering with existing crap than build to the right standard and get the money, because it affects precious car driving and parking space and our local councillors were of that opinion too.

Edit:not all.HA road engineers are of that opinion, but they're fighting against dinosaurs who don't care about the easy access to funding for it, they just see cars cars cars , despite official road hierarchy being that pedestrian and cyclists are at the top for years.

Just shown on BBC breakfast, the new changes to the Highway Code coming in effect on 29th January. I have read some of it and I have been aware that changes were in process.

No wonder drivers don't know the rules, there simply isn't enough media coverage of content like this!

+1000 nr us they’ve put in wands segregating part of the road on one side for cyclists, so now that part of the road is inaccessible for road sweepers & is consequently full of leaves which is treacherous especially when frozen

I think this applies to the whole 'lifecycle'. A really wide cycle lane would be "expensive and unnecessary and take space away from (parked) cars" so it's designed to be narrower than it should be. Because it's narrow you can't use normal road building equipment to lay it, the tarmac has to be hand poured and flattened, rather than using a big steamroller to get it perfectly smooth, which turns out to be more expensive than making it wider and therefore machine laid. So to fit the budget it doesn't go quite as far as it should.

On day 1 it's lumpy and narrow and ends before it should, which means not as many people use it as hoped. So it gets covered in sticks, leaves, moss, gravel, etc. But because it's narrow you can't fit a road sweeper/gritter, even a mini one, down it. So the debris gets worse and the few people using it get sick of crashing and puncturing and return to the road or the pavement.

So the next time someone is pushing the council to build a cycle lane, the council look at the last one they built and decide that if they've really got to do it they're only going to make it narrow because look, nobody uses the things so there's no point making it really wide. And the cycle begins again.

That's a very accurate sounding (and depressing) summary bails

I've no problem with you riding where you want to, but understand the risks.

Every so often I see folk cycling down a bypass (single carriageway) near me (Melrose bypass if anyone knows it), it's got a perfectly decent shared path near to it and IMO it's crackers to cycle down a fast road when there's a far safer alternative that is probably only a minute or two slower.

The horsebox driver though - he needs to be asked the same question as I asked a colleague when they complained about been held up by a cyclist.

"Does that mean that anyone slower than you should move over?"

And when they answered "yes", my response was "well, if you ever see me in your mirrors, move over".