[Closed] the strangest thing just happened....

stilltortoise - Member

[i]Using heroin as another example. a large % of "petty crime" in this country is from junkies getting the money to pay for their fix. Without prohibition this would not be the case.[/i]

Don't follow that at all. Just because it is no longer prohibited does not suddenly make it free. Legalise it, add a bit of tax for Mr Brown and it may even be more expensive = MORE "petty" ctime to pay for it

I believe that legally produced heroin would be cheaper than illegally produced. I would actually give them it free - the cost to the country would be less than the cost of the crime with supervised consumption. I believe this would reduce consumption as it would take away all the glamour from it. Several unproven assumptions in this tho.

prohibition has so utterly and completely failed it is like a bad trip itself

do the naysayers have any idea of how many eee'd coked k'd etc etc up people squeeze into clubs every weekend and buzz their tits off

not to mention endemic cannabis use throughout the country

all its created is a completely unregulated drug underworld that pumps money into organised crime, fuels violence and theft and is a huge drain on public health and policing resources

yet fear of the hypocritical media led backlash against legalisation keeps the politicians well below the parapet with their fingers in their ears about the entire issue

although i hav'nt touched dope for probably 15years, i'm by no means a stranger to these things. and believe me, i have gone through all of the pro/against arguments, many of which already touted in this thread, BUT a year or so ago i heard the best anti dope point i'd ever heard...

'because it makes you believe its ok to do nothing!'

'because it makes you believe its ok to do nothing!'

😆

I would actually give them it free

I would rather my taxes went into treating the thousands of drug (ab)users than paying for free drugs so we end up with [i]even more[/i] drug (ab)users clogging up the health service

I'm sure if drugs (as defined in this context) were free and legal when I was a kid I would have tried them. As it was they were illegal and cost money so I steered clear. I bet there are 10's of thousands people like me, many of which would end up just like the NHS statistics we have now

As for the organised crime element I do generally agree tho'

'because it makes you believe its ok to do nothing!'

so true, millions do the same with TV though

I believe that legally produced heroin would be cheaper than illegally produced. I would actually give them it free - the cost to the country would be less than the cost of the crime with supervised consumption. I believe this would reduce consumption as it would take away all the glamour from it. Several unproven assumptions in this tho.

Almost fully supportive of you on this TJ - and if we square the circle on the Heroin trade, making it into a commodity that we bought from the farm gate, cutting out the organised crime middlemen and the taliban, then we might actually stand a reasonable chance of turning round the continuing cluster**** that is Afghanistan - but why not tax it and make money off it at a reasonable price, no point in giving it free.

I'm sure if drugs (as defined in this context) were free and legal when I was a kid I would have tried them. As it was they were illegal and cost money so I steered clear. I bet there are 10's of thousands people like me, many of which would end up just like the NHS statistics we have now

but what are the NHS/Police stats on drug casualties and the same for alcohol. In my personal experience (and I'm quite partial to both) I have been a stat because of alcohol more than once; one severe head injury, two random beatings by drunk teenagers, and another trip to casualty drunkenly trying to leap frog a traffic cone and smashing my face on the corner of a kerb. I have smoked alot and I have dabbled elsewhere and not once have I been to hospital.

Alcohol funnily enough was legal.

Stilltortoise - not freely given away to all but to existing junkies. The cost of this would be less to the country than the current costs of the crime they do. It would then cut the market for the crims so there was no profit in it so they would turn their attentions elsewhere thus stopping supply that creates new junkies. Thats the logic.

I'll relink to this:
http://www.flatearthnews.net/media-falsehoods-and-propaganda/heroin

Martindale, the standard medical reference book, which records that heroin is used for the control of severe pain in children and adults, including the frail, the elderly and women in labour. It is even injected into premature babies who are recovering from operations. Martindale records no sign of these patients being damaged or morally degraded or becoming criminally deviant or simply insane. It records instead that, so far as harm is concerned, there can be problems with nausea and constipation.

One of Nick Davis' original stories on the propagation mis-information was his research into the "Heroin is evil" meme.

His acommpanying book "Flat Earth News" is a very good book on the journalistic process.

Since I would never consider taking recreational drugs other than coffee and alcohol, I had never thought about the moral aspects pointed out by TJ, but I think his point is well made. I've always thought all these drugs should be legal as we know prohibition doesn't work, and as for:

Legalise it, add a bit of tax for Mr Brown and it may even be more expensive = MORE "petty" ctime to pay for it

this is laughable, as there'd be clearly no sense in making the legal drug more expensive than the black market product

In my youth I was very into my clubbing and used to get seriously caned of a weekend at clubs like Sundissential, but I never ended up in hospital or in a police station due to the effects of this apparently ruinous habit.

Nope, I used to knock it on the head in the early hours of the morning on Sunday, let the effects wear off and be fresh as a daisy for Monday. I managed to hold down a responsible job, had perfect attendance, never felt a need to mug old ladies in order to buy drugs and maintained a 'normal' relationship with friends and family.

Of course I can't say that those I know a serious taste for that nice, legal and taxable drug alcohol can say the same about their lives.

Taxed drugs = acceptable drugs.

TJ & SFB, this isn't aimed at you.

Some quality preaching there PP. Drink alcohol at all? Would it be legal if it were not taxed? Time for you to wake up perhaps?

I'm right though, aren't I?
You wouldn't get so wound up if I wasn't.

time to wake up and grow up?
so when are you going to learn to manage money like an adult,

stop eating crap food and being overweight

and stop wasting money on fast toys?

personally i couldn't give a toss what you do with you life just find it a bit odd that you are happy to tell somebody else to "grow up" yet feel your own vices and failings are acceptable.

Personally i couldn't give a toss what you do with you life just find it a bit odd that you are happy to complain about bad experiences on illegal drugs which you take of your own choice. MY own vices and failings are acceptable to me and I don’t whinge/boast about them on internet forums as if as if it makes me clever somehow.
Druggie looser, your brain is fried.
Again, grow up and get a life. I’ll stick by what I say because at least I can remember it.

(PS, Don’t bother having another pop, because I won’t be checking this thread again. Can’t be bothered to argue the toss any longer with deluded pot-heads
But seriously, very well done to the sensible ones that sorted themselves out)

whippersnapper
On alcohol, I absolutely agree, but have deliberately avoided bringing that into the debate
TJ

not freely given away to all but to existing junkies

as there'd be clearly no sense in making the legal drug more expensive than the black market product

I've been taking drugs in various forms for the best part of twenty five years. Never done me any harm... Im still fitter than most people much younger me, show no signs of laziness and am in perfectlty good health mentally and physically.

anyone with an interest in the subject and the phony war on drugs should read this article :

[url= http://www.grahamhancock.com/features/the-war-on-onsciousness.php ]The War on Consciousness[/url]

Kev

PP are you for real...??? Surely not. Relf rightous waffle.

I must apologise at contributing to this hi-jacked post. Poor alpin started it as a light-hearted observation and now the gloves are on 🙄
I saw Cypress Hill live once; B Real was so stoned he could barely stand 😆

PP - Although you won't be checking this thread I'll fire away anyway, if only to make this druggie 'looser' feel better.

Strange how you don't consider your airing of opinion as being 'clever somehow' but consider those of other people to be so......

Warning, the internet may contain opinions that differ from your own. If this is likely to cause offence step away from the broadband and put The Archers on.

Warning, the internet may contain opinions that differ from your own. If this is likely to cause offence step away from the broadband and put The Archers on.

I realise that now and STW is a happier place because of it (has only taken me several months)

I saw Cypress Hill live once; B Real was so stoned he could barely stand ..

I saw 'The Pogues' is Sheffield a few years back and Mr McGowan was so blitzed on a drug which is deemed acceptable mainly because the government says so (and takes a nice slice of tax from) that he couldn't sing. He sat on the drum riser for the entire concert with a bottle in his hand.

Shall we start a new "alchohol is bad" thread? Nah, I can't be bothered either

Not all alcohol is bad, just as neither is all recreational drug use.

Its about choices.

I've never understood wanting to take drugs or drink more than lightly. I tend to observe both from a distance with an air of confusion, heavy participants of both turn into meandering morons that make little sense and embarrass themselves, then generally regret it later. I quite like the mild effects of a few beers, but getting smashed? Only done it a couple of times, and by mistake, regretted it greatly. I know some people who work all week looking forward to getting smashed to forget things/have a good time - very odd to me, is normal life not full of opportunities to have a good time, and that full of stuff to forget? I dont know if I should feel pity, or if that's patronising?!?

Put brain into gear before opening gob.

How does that work, then??? 😀

In defence of PP; he's very fit, and a bloody good bike rider. I dread to think what decreasing his pieload would do; he'd be even bloody quicker. I'd encourage him to eat more, just so's I can keep up with him.

Guns don't kill people, Rappers do...

Most drugs, if used in moderation, can be a lot of fun. It's just that some people don't know how to moderate their usage. Those same people would be addicts to any drug; it's not the drug, as much as the addictive nature of some people. The scale of addiction ranges from mild psychological 'needing a spliff/beer/glass of wine to relax of an evening', to being compelled to commit even violent crime, in order to feed a habit; the real desperate total physical and psychological dependence on a substance.

Economics often has a bearing on the nature of the effects of the addiction, to the individual, and society as a whole. Middle-class coke addicts may be able to afford the bi-annual rehab, or monthly detox, whilst sink estate crack heads descend into a spiral of self-destruction, which is damn near impossible to escape from, without help.

Of course, there's the 'if you don't touch drugs in the first place, you won't have any trouble with drugs' type philosophy, which works for many people. But people, espeshly young impressionable ones, have a desire to seek out new pleasures, and will experiment, regardless of rules and regulations. Half the thrill is in the illicitness, certainly to begin with.

And many of the rules and laws surrounding drugs are based on religious morality; it is [i]sinful[/i] to give your mind over to intoxication, as this detracts from your ability to worship God. and of course, someone using 'mind-expanding' drugs might not be as amenable to religious indoctrination. I can see how LSD might be particularly reviled by certain religions...

I do think PP is being somewhat naive about this issue, although I can understand the need to be in control. Too many drugs can fry your brain. I've seen the proof.

Rudeboi, you dont 'do' shortposts do you?

RB I dont think any laws/rules have anything to do with religion. Our laws would be a bit stupid if religiously based, as a large percentage of the population would not need to pay heed.

"illicit" things never interested me as a kid, fun things did, same with my mates I hung out with. If the fun things were illegal we tended either not to do them for fear of getting caught.... there's nothing to fear in getting caught these days. Back then you'd get taken in by the police and cautioned at least, then taken home by the police, the family would be disgraced in the street and your parents would give you a clout to boot.

is normal life not full of opportunities to have a good time, and that full of stuff to forget? I dont know if I should feel pity, or if that's patronising?!?

I have got very drunk many times in my past but never as an "escape". I may even have been one of those participents you have seen. It was fun, even more so after a day at work, bike ride, climb etc. Yes it often hurt afterwards and yes it cost me a lot of money. Now I'm a Dad I don't drink nearly as much, but I probably enjoy a (singular) beer more than ever.

Illegal drugs, alcohol, cigarettes. It doesn't matter. We are all different. Some can handle them, some can't. Some get ill, some don't. ONe thing I do agree on is that they are all a great way of getting tax for the public coffers.

On another point, I have probably cost the NHS more with sporting injuries than any alcohol related ones. Does that make me bad? 😆

still - I'm not suggesting all people use it as an escape, but it's a very very common answer to the question. I too enjoy a beer or two fairly regularly, over lunch etc, but not so much for the effects, one beer has almost no noticable effect so it's purely down to the flavour.

I agree, some can handle it, some cant, some are addictive, some drugs cause serious ongoing mental problems. Ultimately I think its a bad idea to legalise such things. If someone banned alchohol I'd not really care, other than the increase in my taxation - a few weeks on and I'd forget alcohol ever existed.

yeah but don't shout about it because they may try banning them too There will be a war on sport. And then driving. And then crossing the road. But not booze cos booze is good.

As far as dope goes, I rarely inhale myself but I don't begrudge others their fun.

Personally I think NWA put it perfectly in Express Yourself...

I still express, yo, I don't smoke weed or a sess.
Cause its known to give a brother brain damage.
And brain damage on the mic don't manage
Nuthin'
But makin' a sucker and you equal.
Don't be another sequel...

RB I dont think any laws/rules have anything to do with religion

Au contraire. We live in a 'Christian' country. The foundations of much of our institutions of Law and Order are based on Christian doctrine. The Queen is our 'Divine' Head of State, with the power to pass laws, and yo go and see how much religion plays a part in Parliamentary and Legal proceedings. Judges etc are 'sworn in', and required to recite an oath of allegienace to God and the Queen, and all sorts.

And there are the Lords Spiritual...

RB - yes the pomp and ceremony is religious, of course, but how many laws are based on one particular religion? I can't think of any that bias for or against any religion off the top of my head?

[i]personally i couldn't give a toss what you do with you life just find it a bit odd that you are happy to tell somebody else to "grow up" yet feel your own vices and failings are acceptable. [/[/i]quote]

Personally i couldn't give a toss what you do with you life just find it a bit odd that you are happy to complain about bad experiences on illegal drugs which you take of your own choice. MY own vices and failings are acceptable to me and I don’t whinge/boast about them on internet forums as if as if it makes me clever somehow.
Druggie looser, your brain is fried.
Again, grow up and get a life. I’ll stick by what I say because at least I can remember it.

(PS, Don’t bother having another pop, because I won’t be checking this thread again. Can’t be bothered to argue the toss any longer with deluded pot-heads

well where to start?!
you have no idea how funny your post is (maybe it's the drugs?)
i wasn't whinging/boasting about anything. as i said i found it odd that your 'vices' were acceptable but those of another person meant he needed to "grow up"
please read my post again and don't misquote me because i never said anything about taking drugs or being happy to "complain about bad experiences" [b]YOU ARE CONFUSING MY POST WITH SOMEBODY ELSES[/b]

"Druggie looser, your brain is fried."

really? i'm not the one misquoting, misconstruing and using an ad-hominem argument to divert attention away the fact that your acceptance of what's wrong or right isn't the only one. maybe the paranoia is a symptom of excessive drug use?

Put brain into gear before opening gob.

LOL

 

PMSL at the genius of Poddy (on the assumption that he's on a wind-up!) 😀

Just for what it's worth. I do not do any illegal drugs because, on the off-chance that I got caught, I would lose my job, and indeed probably my profession. Simple as. I'd quite like to smoke pot and opium, I've heard brilliant things about ketamine and I'd benefit enormously from dance drugs. But I am successfully deterred by prohibition because the stakes are too high. 🙂

BD - Ketamine can be fun but the problem is many people take it in clubs like they would coke, in a 'snorter'. The thing is coke snorter bottles are designed for coke, which is almost always cut with something else and therefore a larger bump is required to counter it being watered down.

Ketamine on the other hand is most usually pure (medical grade) and uncut and when it is taken in a coke snorter its invariably a little more than should be taken and then you get the K-Hole with its resultant 'stare into the corner and drool' effects. This is the main reason it has quite a bad name in clubs etc as a 'mong drug', because folk don't know how to take it.

anyways...... i'm still alive. had a big bowl of gnocchi and a nice long sleep. feeling fine.

have smoked weed more 'on' than 'off' since i was 14, so about 12 years. never really smoked ciggies unless i'm drunk and there is no weed about.

for the last six years back in the uk i used to smoke daily 5-6 doobies, even whilst at work and although my productivity may have fallen off at times i always got the job done to a good standard (carpentry). my work mate was 35 and had been smoking since he was in his teens and managed to keep enough money coming in to look after his two kids, pay the mortgage etc.

i would go riding just for the sake of having a smoke - one reason i bought my lumis - and have a smoke before kiteboarding. now kiteboarding can be, no is, very dangerous but the smoke helped relax the mind and body. was a lot more 'flowy' after a smoke.

in my teens i imbibed lots of drugs. mostly E's, a bit of coke - which i think is poss one of the worse 'recreational' drugs about, MDMA, acid, shrooms and at one silly point morphine because my mates nan had died and he found her old prescriptions.

i don't know if i'm a better or worse person for all that. but drugs do allow the mind to see things differently.

i've had some great times whilst high on various substances. that said there are some drugs that i simply have no craving for anymore and would say that i have 'grown out of it'. don't know if i'll ever stop smoking weed.

i've had trips where although what you are 'seeing' is complete bollocks you have an element of control over it - even if just telling yourself it really isn't real. but last night was strange.

yeah, i rolled it. can't stand watching people try and roll and ending up with something resembling a tampon. didn't think i put that much in although tabbacco content is prob 20% as i don't want to smoke the stuff. was at a party on sunday which involved lots of beer, lots of weed - you could smell it from the street below - and i felt fine during and after.

i can imagine that if that was someones first experience they would probably now be in the priory.

infact it is those that have no experience with drugs telling us of the dangers that really piss me off.

will i continue to smoke? yes. i've got several hundred €€'s worth sitting beside me. think it might just last a little longer than expected.

if i have the same reaction again in the near future than i'll think about sticking it.

Chakaping, there are better sources to cite in opposition to drug use than a group whose founder member went on to record an album called "The Chronic".

I have very little to do with illegal drugs because they seem to go hand in hand with ****tishness. I've been cornered more times than I care to remeber by some stoner mong who is eager to tell me that the earth's gravity reverses every 2000 years because of the machine aliens have built inside the earth. You get drunk people talking drivel at you too but at least they don't pretend that they're expanding their minds.

Chakaping, there are better sources to cite in opposition to drug use than a group whose founder member went on to record an album called "The Chronic".

On the contrary, the voice of experience.

Anyway, they never said anything about brain damage [i]off[/i] the mic.

Your gangsta rap timeline is waaaay out. "Straight Outta Compton" was, ooh, about 4 years before "The Chronic" was it not? So if there's any lesson to be drawn from NWA's stance, it's "give illegal drugs a chance, you may come to find them very pleasant and relaxing". 🙂

Another harmful aspect of prohibition is it is hard to test drugs and provide information on them. Better information and testing might lead to less harm to users.

[img] [/img]

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/joepublic/2009/jun/04/drugs-do-work ]The drugs do work[/url]

Mr Agreeable - Haha, I put the "Chronic misunderstanding" tag up before your last post, but now it's even more apt.

I did know The Chronic was Dre's first solo, post-NWA LP. But I wasn't trying to claim NWA were anti-drugs (haha, have you listened to Eight Ball?).

I just love that lyric from Express Yourself.

Chronic misunderstanding

I see what you did there. 🙄

Alpin, if you've been smoking since you were 14 there's a very good chance that you have altered the development of your brain. And not in a good way.

alpin sounds like it could be the start of mental health issues, especially if you have been smoking lots of weed since you were 14, so it might be worth speaking to someone who actually knows what they are talking about, rather than the internet experts on here. Especially considering your prolonged use of weed actually increases the chance of these issues getting worse over time.

Standard disclaimer, yes I have smoked weed, and a lot of other drugs, just like everyone else but after seeming a fair few friends lose the plot, there jobs, sanity and in at least one case life, I rarely do anymore.