(At least in the short term) Scotland's budget deficit will (most likely) be higher as an independent country. So the same pressure faced now will be even worse. So these pledges look hollow IMO...
So not good news either way (but be careful what you wish for!)....
I've recently started work in the NHS, after 30 years of working in the private sector.
Eye opener, is all I will say...
Scotland's budget deficit will (most likely) be higher as an independent country. So the same pressure faced now will be even worse. So these pledges look hollow IMO...
So you reckon that Scotland will vote for independence then ?
Since you apparently think "these pledges look hollow".
No, because the majoirty are too sensible. For clarity "will" should have said "would" to avoid misunderstanding 😉
teamhurtmore - Member(At least in the short term) Scotland's budget deficit will (most likely) be higher as an independent country.
That depends on a long ton of factors- how the national debt would be distributed being a big one. But according to GERS, Scotland's current deficit is proportionally less than the UK deficit.
I work for the NHS on a zero hours contract and don't get any increments, sick pay or other benefits of a permanent contract, yet I have to work every weekend and often at very short notice ( same day or one day ) .
I do the same job as my colleagues, yet feel taken for granted and not valued by management as all of my work is in their favour, not mine.
But Restless thats a good bit of management, getting someone to work for zero hours, no pension etc, so litle cost only the cost of your wage, and so sadly people obey and more companies jump on the wagon,because they know people want a job or more importantly to earn money.
Whereas there are some of us who get to pick and choose from various short contracts every week and get paid more than the regular permanent staff. (Not that I've bothered to take any NHS work yet...)
Yes they get their cake and eat it.
The infuriating thing is, I was told I would have the opportunity to apply for a substantive position when they became available, but this hasn't happened.
New staff come in on a substantive contract and myself and the others on zero hours have been overlooked again and again.
Apply to work at a different place then.
If life were that simple I would !!
We are a third world nation: we just haven't noticed yet
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So that's why there are so many minorities about.
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http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/mp-claims-3p-for-100-metre-car-trip-1
...... !!! ..........! (I have no words......) 😯 👿
'No NHS pay freeze' in Scotland
Ah yes the old quick we can get a few more votes by claiming we won't do something that's controversial.
Call me a tinfoil-hat-wearing lefty if you like but aren't the Tories deliberately stretching the NHS to breaking point to try and justify their claims that it's 'not working' and needs to be privatised?
More of this please: 😕
HCA is already at the centre of a massive row after being accused of overcharging the NHS by millions of pounds in a damning report released last week.It owns the Gamma Knife Centre at Barts hospital, which has been given the new contract alongside Bupa’s private Cromwell hospital.
HCA has a chequered history in the US and has been fined more than $1billion for mis-selling healthcare.
Mr Morris said: “Given this company’s record in America why are they being given lucrative contracts by our NHS?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-hospital-corporation-america-donates-2246513
Ah yes the old quick we can get a few more votes by claiming we won't do something that's controversial.
Who would you associate that statement to Drac ? It undermines the case for independence by emphasising that independence isn't necessarily needed to protect Scotland from the excesses of this right-wing Tory LibDem cabal.
And there's nothing immoral about pointing out that you won't be doing something which you consider to be unjustified and immoral.
You do understand the the Department of Health has no say in the running of the NHS in Scotland and that their latest suggestion only ever applied to employees in England?Drac - Moderator
> 'No NHS pay freeze' in Scotland
Ah yes the old quick we can get a few more votes by claiming we won't do something that's controversial.
You're a
tinfoil-hat-wearing lefty
1. The Conservatives aren't that organised.
2. The Conservatives aren't that strategic.
3. The population would string them up if they tried to properly privatise the NHS wholesale.
4. I doubt you could privatise the NHS, it's taken this long to privatise something relatively simple like the Royal Mail.
No they're happy enough to score cheap political points as are their Labour colleagues rather than resolve the underlying issues in the NHS. Free health care at the point of delivery in it's current form isn't sustainable without more investment (to cope with the ever increasing number of patients and treatable diseases) and massive improvements in the delivery and management of the service.
You do understand the the Department of Health has no say in the running of the NHS in Scotland and that their latest suggestion only ever applied to employees in England?
Yes thanks but my comment still applies.
Who would you associate that statement to Drac ?
Because they do it every time they can.
The Conservatives aren't that organised.
The Conservatives aren't that strategic.
Do you actually believe that ?
I find it rather bizarre to dismiss public school educated born to rule Tories as clueless amateurs.
If there's one skill that the Tories and their wealthy allies have it's their marketing skills.
Yes they are organised and strategic. That's how they've managed to stay in government most of the time since universal suffrage was first established.
I think I'd vote for a party/politician who could be honest about the state of the NHS and the other social systems in this country (education, social services etc.).
Basically, all they would need to do was say "Yep, they are in a sorry state, here's a Cost/Benefit analysis of how to sort them out, here's how much additional tax we need to raise and it's going to be 5% on income tax."
That'd get my vote. But no party or politician seems to want to bite the bullet.
You could have a hypothecated tax take for the NHS and call it something like National Insurance. I'd vote for that. Problem is, I'd then expect/want a similar level of accountancy for other taxes.
War Tax - err, I can I just opt out of that one please.
MPs Expenses Tax - get tae ****!
I'm back! I survived the RCGP conference. I am pleased to report I had a warm and cordial welcome and even BA contributed to a memorable day by getting me to Leeds and back, cheaper than the train, quicker and on time.I took part in the media question time. It turned out to be a hoot! The robust exchanges between Lady GaGa and Prof Sir Simon Wesley, (A John McEnroe look-alike) the panel chairman, woke the audience up and dissolved them into fits of laughter when they realised he and Lady G are husband and wife. Heaven knows what breakfast time is like in their household!
I had a spat with a very polite bloke from the BMA with a sesquipedalian question. Apparently I'd upset him by saying the thread-bare, self-focussed, hopelessly led, vacuous, confused, split-loyalty BMA had let the reforms in by the back door. I thought everyone thought that; he didn't. Never mind. He got over it!
The previous day Conference had been treated to a visit from LaLite. He told his audience he wanted to be the most GP-loving Secretary of State in living memory; it was his mission to end the box ticking bureaucracy of QoF.
Now, GPs are a bright lot but like any other audience they are easily distracted. When they hear; 'GP-loving, memory, mission, and bureaucracy', they don't hear; 'end and QoF'. At that point Conference should, as one, have stood up and shouted 'Woooha! Wait a minute... end QoF and replace it with what?'
When a pickpocket bumps into you at the train station and apologises profusely for his momentary clumsiness and enquires, earnestly, as to your wellbeing, you don't notice his deft hand lifting your wallet. LaLite is the Apollo Robbins of healthcare. He is not after bureaucracy or loving you, he is after your wallet!
The whole idea of removing QoF is to remove costs. LaLite knows about the Circle of Doom; the fact that after 2015 all funding bets are off. The NHS is facing a black-hole of something like £30bn, maybe more. No one is going to suggest putting taxes up so costs must be cut.
I know, practice costs are going up and GP incomes are levelling off but LaLite will want more. GPs; expect a pay cut. GPs need an urgent alternative to the conflicted, confused and convoluted BMA to represent them without the clutter of all the Docs in other parts of the NHS chiming in with their two-pennyworth.
It's not just GP's cash LaLite has his eyes on. The NHS pay-packet is up for grabs. Seventy percent of costs are wages and salaries. Annual increments, linked to length of service and satisfactory performance, add £700m pa to salary costs. They are set to become part of the history of healthcare. The DH say; 'can't pay, won't pay'. Strange how NHS Scotland says it can and will?
LaLite wants the Pay Review Bodies (which are due to make their recommendations in February or March) to defer the planned 1% pay rise until he has negotiated seven-day working with Unions. The Chancellor's weighed-in; ".... and confirmed (HMG) want NHS pay to have stronger links to performance, quality and productivity".
Explain to me how a nurse on a ward can influence the quality of care she delivers if the numpties in the Board Room cut staff, reduce hours and screw-up patient to nurse ratios? Remember, the biggest pay-winners last year were senior managers who got a whopping average rise of 16.4%. The real pay cost inflation has resulted from The Carbuncle's upgrade of posts, post-reform.
What to do? All Trusts have the authority to set local pay and conditions. Unions don't like it as they lose their raison d'etre. Nevertheless, it can be done. In the early 90's I sat down with staff, great managers and some very far sighted Union bosses and introduced the first local-pay and conditions package in the NHS.
We created the headroom for increments by working together to cut costs. No one knows more about efficiency than the front-line. You just have to listen.
The clodhopping NHS Employers sound, to me, like they're the back-door of the DH and cut no ice. Trust Boards will be buffeted by cack-handed national negotiations motivated by party and politics in the run-up to the election. Right now there is a brief opportunity to take a serious look at how to use pay as a lever to bring people together, not a stick to keep them apart.
Boards, take note; it's time to look after your most valuable asset; your people. Circle the wagons
From NHS Managers: http://www.nhsmanagers.net/newsletter/
(there are lots of hyperlinks in the original that obviously haven't copied across)
here's how much additional tax
So you've already decided that addition tax is required.....why ?
9. In times of austerity, can we afford the costs of the NHS and other public services?We believe that it is both more affordable and more efficient to deliver key public services, especially health and social care, through a non-market system. Privatisation and commercialisation wastes vast amounts of public money by diverting into shareholder profits and fees and payments to lawyers, accountants and administrators. It will increase costs and transfer risk from the wealthiest in society to the poorest and most vulnerable.
We also note the growing anger around the failure to address the banking and credit crisis, and the public money that has been lavished on supporting the financial sector to the detriment of public services. We believe there is strong case that resources and money could be found to fund and sustain an excellent health service for all, if we had an economy that was not structured to serve the demands and greed of the top 1% wealthy.
[url= http://www.nationalhealthaction.org.uk/faqs/ ]National Health Action Party FAQs[/url]
In the 1980s the Tories very successfully convinced a politically significant minority that Britain couldn't afford to pay them a decent wage. "We've been paying ourselves too much" they claimed, by "ourselves" they meant [u]you[/u] of course.
Today they appear to be having some success in convincing a significant number of people that Britain can't afford to have decent social provisions.
So you've already decided that addition tax is required.....why ?
No specific reason, just a general assumption that it's falling to bits, it's workers aren't happy and seem to be underpaid particularly those at the coal face. I thought it a reasonable assumption to make. I'm happy to be educated otherwise though.
Very interesting link though, will have a trawl through later on. I have similar concerns about state education and social care too.
The Conservatives aren't that organised.
The Conservatives aren't that strategic
Lansley spent most of his time in opposition planning the [i]blitzkrieg[/i] that would become the ConDem reforms, utterly muddleheaded as they are.
Meanwhile, the private sector (Virgin, Serco, Circle & the rest) are being handed more & more NHS services.... of course, they (& their profits) are dependent upon NHS acute capacity, infrastructure and workforce training - even as the NHS gets slagged off!
It's an utter pish-take.
just a general assumption that it's falling to bits, it's workers aren't happy and seem to be underpaid particularly those at the coal face
Remember that NHS workers pay income tax also, so increase income tax and they'd likely be worse off.
Also who are you talking about when you say underpaid NHS staff? As some possibly are (paramedics?) and some definitely aren't i.e. Doctors.
Remember that NHS workers pay income tax also, so increase income tax and they'd likely be worse off.
Depends how much you increase their pay by!
I don't know who in the NHS is underpaid and who isn't I'm afraid. As a general rule of thumb I'd assume nurses, cleaners, paramedics and the ilk are underpaid, and consultants, managers etc. aren't. I'm afraid I don't know enough about the management and pay scales of the NHS. It's a huge organisation and one I've never worked in, and to be honest my post was an off-the-cuff one based on the priniciples that those at the bottom (employees and service users) are getting shafted for the sake of the great God capitalism and it upsets and infuriates me that this is happening.
I'm a Paramedic Team Leader, I earn a pretty good wage I never say otherwise. I work as a Paramedic, I have 15 staff to look after, a station and 2 vehicles. On top of that of course comes all the H&S Regs to monitor and follow, seems I'm classed as responsible for Fire Safety too, I will soon be given a budget to stick to rigidly for consumables.
Ok I could maybe get more in the Private sector for a similar role or as close as you can get as there isn't really one. However I wouldn't get the pension I have even though it's not the one I signed up for 24 years ago it's still pretty good. I won't get the security offered by the NHS as people will always take ill our work load is increasing so plenty of customers.
We've 'agreed' to take lower pay rises the last few years and we did with the 1% then for a right Hunt to come along and say sorry no isn't right. Even more so when they gladly took 11% payrise which is far more than I've had in the last 6-8 years put together.
I'll say it again the pay increments are a contractual agreement, they are not automatic they're performance based although this hasn't always been followed.
they are not automatic they're performance based although this hasn't always been followed.
Out of interest, have you ever known anyone not get the annual pay point increase?
Ours is automatic, it doesn't matter what you have or have not done you will always get it. As a result we have people you wouldn't trust as first aiders on the top of their pay bands!
Out of interest, have you ever known anyone not get the annual pay point increase?
Ours is automatic, it doesn't matter what you have or have not done you will always get it. As a result we have people you wouldn't trust as first aiders on the top of their pay bands!
Nope. However this is being tightened up from next year and should be for all trusts.
As a result we have people you wouldn't trust as first aiders on the top of their pay bands!
If they that bad why hasn't anyone raised this?
As a result we have people you wouldn't trust as first aiders on the top of their pay bands!
My missus is on the top of one of the highest pay bands - I wouldn't trust her as a first aider. She is a bloody good physio though.
Checklist for "under attack" workers:
- 60% of the employees do not get an annual length of service increment of 3.5% BEFORE the pay rise
- 20% london weighting
- 33 days annual leave when you have 10 years service
- 5 days additional annual parental leave
- an automatic pay differential of £21K a year just for being 4 years older
- up to 16 days sick leave on average for some roles that is never actively managed and never goes down
- Annual length of service increments that for nearly every person on Agenda for Change are in practice automatic
- "clinical merit awards" or to use naughty private sector language "bonuses", for some clinical staff that can exceed £70K and are not performance based and ARE taken into account for pension calculations
- a completely unsustainable defined benefit pension that everyone else pays for...
- your annual length of service increment less year is only 100% more than the average worker in the whole population will get
- you have complete job security
It's completely right that healthcare workers are paid well and compensated for jobs that are very often hard emotionally (and in some cases physically). But 3.5% compared to the 2% that everyone else will probably get in a year when the country is still broke reflects this more than adequately and is not a value judgement on the staff - or an attack on the service.
I like to keep stuff simple as dinner is nearly ready.
I like the NHS, they saved my life and I didn't have to sell my house to pay for the pleasure of being alive still.
Nope. However this is being tightened up from next year and should be for all trusts.
It needs to be but it would involve managers having to manage which in out trust doesn't really happen at all.
If they that bad why hasn't anyone raised this?
Managers who are best buddies with the people in question and lack in backbone to do anything that may rock the boat.
It's a pretty poor situation across the board and I don't see it improving any time soon. As it goes I quite like my job so I'll just continue to do it as best I can and avoid the politics that's involved.
robdixon - Memberthe country is still broke
😀
For most of the last 300 years Britain has been more in debt than it is now.
If we're "broke" now, then we've been "broke" for more than 300 years, so I wouldn't start worrying about
it ! 🙂
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BTW you'll note that after second world war Britain was a lot more "broke" than it is now, and yet that was a period of huge investment and growth, including the creation of the NHS and the construction of unprecedented amounts of affordable housing.
Britain is broke is a Tory sham to justify ideologically motivated cuts. And give them their due, it works very well.
Synopsis?
Other than with health being a devolved matter there was never any threat to the 1% payrise for NHS Scotland staff...
Out of interest, have you ever known anyone not get the annual pay point increase?
Ahem.
toxicsoks - MemberThe incremental pay increases my lot get are based on their annual appraisals where competencies and well defined knowledge and skills frameworks are used. If the individual isn't progressing and displaying the required competencies and ksf's - no increment. Simples.
.................................and I should know because I do the appraisals. Generally speaking it gives most people the incentive to get their ar5e in gear and be sorted for their six monthly review.
Ernie, please tell me you are joking. How far is your tongue in your cheek when you posted that? Or is it just a test/joke to see if you can get away with it?
Yeah of course I'm joking, Britain's never been in so much debt before 🙄
Well leaving aside the fact that the graph is grossly misleading (calculation of debt, total UK debt including households and corporates, the UK as a debtor nation not a creditor one as in the past, and global levels of gov debt - you can't look at the UK in isolation etc), the idea that those trajectories are a solution is nonsense.
The UK has one of the worst histories of long-term debt management in the world. How did those downslopes occur? A combination of historic defaults, debt restructurings, then financial repression (all different forms of theft), inflation and bail outs. LatAm has a bad press, but we are almost as bad if not worse.
The formula I showed earlier is clear. No government will run a surplus sufficient to stabilise debt. Growth will not, indeed cannot, save us. So what is he future? 10 - 20 years of government theft dressed up as financial repression. Without the introduction of stringent capital controls, this has to lead to a depreciating currency and higher inflation in time. Relatively poor for low income households.
So to bring this back to the OP and NHS - there can only be one conclusion. The outlook for wages and pensions for anyone employed by the government is negative. And it's not rosy in the private sector either.
teamhurtmore - MemberNo government will run a surplus sufficient to stabilise debt. Growth will not, indeed cannot, save us. So what is he future?
Do what the public sector would do- declare bankrupt, set up a new UK with different directors retaining all the profitable bits.
Or- since the situation we're in is not really significantly different to much of the world, we just carry on. In the end, it'll become clear that the whole paradigm is ****ed, madeup numbers make us simultaneously the richest and poorest countries in the world... And we look at debts that will never be repaid and say "Well if it'll never be repaid then **** it, it's all mad". With the resources, knowledge and technology that we have today it's absurd that the human state will be poorer tomorrow. Compound interest isn't the most powerful force in the universe, it's an idea made up by monkeys.
There'll come a point where nobody can argue that unborn kids should pick up the crushing bills of their fathers without having a brick thrown at their head.
Northwind, economist, has spake.
I was just listening to a conversation between two speech and language therapists yesterday ( one of whom was my wife ). Seems that one of them had made the mistake of revealing that chronic understaffing was the reason a "client's" child couldn't be seen for three months. Sounded like sheer, head-banging-on-brick-wall frustration on the part of the therapist.
Said client was less than happy. Not life or death but the child in question is unable to engage at school due to his severe communication issues, has fallen well behind and has developed behavioural issues which have seen him excluded from school. How would you feel if it were your child, whose stammer couldn't be treated, and whose future was being seriously affected by an easy to treat issue? Purely because an nhs trust couldn't afford to hire staff?
Good point NW - in effect that is what the UK did in the past.
