Aidy
Free Member
It’s weird to assume that people who don’t take sick leave are up to nefarious deeds.
Weird to assume, reasonable to suspect. When I used to work in bank branches, the two main ways internal fraud got caught was either 1) Bob is a ****ing idiot and goes out and spends money he shouldn't have, or 2) Bob had some sort of scheme to cover his tracks but he broke his leg and someone else had to do his job and noticed.
Some companies have policies of mandatory holidays, taking lots of single days off can trigger suspicions for the same reason, I was expected to take a 2 week break every year basically just because that's how long it took for "hmm I don't understand this, let's leave it to him to sort when he gets back" to become "Well we tried to sort it and it was obviously sus"
I don’t think it’s reasonable to suspect at all.
Not all people who never take time off are fraudsters, but fraudsters never take time off.
if you were doing something illegal at/to work, would you risk getting discovered by not being there to deflect attention?
I have a similar policy with my team but more from a welfare point of view, people need a decent break a couple of times a year, on a selfish note it's a pain managing around people who constantly have odd days off.
As for health, it's an HR issue really, as managers we're not medically competant to judge if or how ill someone is. However being at work is a contractural requirement so it doesn't really matter how genuine your illness is it can get to the point you are not fulfilling your contract. Each case is different though and practical and legal adjustments need to be made. Its surprising (actually it's not) how many people with high absence levels also fail to impress in other areas of their work though, sometime this is clear illness related but more often it's down to their general approach to life and lifestyle.
Not all people who never take time off are fraudsters, but fraudsters never take time off.
There's a difference between people who never take *any* time off, and people who never take sick leave. Discriminating against people for being too healthy is just bizarre.
There’s a difference between people who never take *any* time off, and people who never take sick leave. Discriminating against people for being too healthy is just bizarre.
Where are you seeing discrimination? People are describing vigilance - patterns that could reveal something. Nobody is suggesting it's detrimental to have a good attendance record. I don't think theres any research to suggest fraud boost the immune system so being healthy in itself isn't the point, but someone dragging themself to work no matter how ill could reveal insecurities about being absent - which might be fingers in the till (might also be terrible management who make them fear consequences of being ill)
It seems wild to me that in a bank of all places, the only checks and balances in place for ensuring that an employee isn't embezzling is waiting for them to take leave/sickness so that they can surreptitiously be investigated without any cause for suspicion. Surely what you want there is some sort of random spot check or continuous monitoring?
I have a similar policy with my team but more from a welfare point of view, people need a decent break a couple of times a year, on a selfish note it’s a pain managing around people who constantly have odd days off.
I would hate to work somewhere like that. Most of the things I want to do are at weekends and so I need to take a lot of Fridays and Mondays off for travelling, and only occasionally a whole week for stuff further away.
I found at a guy my work who was stealing from the company (won't say any more, court case in October) I'm the company accountant, he'd been doing it two, maybe three months before I noticed, and it was nothing to do with time off which alerted me.
No-one has said that if you never take time off then you must be on the fiddle, but it is a fair indicator. When I was in audit training, that was one of the things we were told to look for.
Surely what you want there is some sort of random spot check or continuous monitoring?
They do, but if the person is there they can manage any intrusion/throw dead cats/perform misdirection &throw auditors off the scent.
No-one has said that if you never take time off then you must be on the fiddle, but it is a fair indicator.
I can see the argument that it may be an indicator, that in combination with other red flags may cause an individual to be under suspicion. But saying it's reasonable to suspect people of foul play merely because they happen to be fortunate enough to have good health seems very wrong to me.
fortunate enough to have good health
Not sickness, more in the case of not taking holiday- that can be a red flag. At one employer I was at, HR monitored it- was the employee struggling or the manager overloading their staff?
I have eczema, and I have it pretty bad. Uncontrolled, there were days when I just couldn't go into work as my skin was too sore to put on clothes.
I have tried EVERYTHING to try to get it under control. People say " Ooh, have you tried...?", and the answer is always "Yes". I'm 49 and it has made my life an absolute misery, so I have tried everything available. I have signed up for every medical trial available to me too.
For the past 6 years I have been on Methotrexate, which is an immune suppressant. It has had an incredible effect on my skin - life changing - but makes me far more likely to pick up everyone else's coughs and sneezes, which develop into more serious issues for me.
I am acutely aware of my absences from work (18 days 13, then 5, this year), and wish it wasn't the case. I always return as soon as I meet the minimum threshold for being able to function, but this does likely prolong my overall recovery.
I am hoping to move to Dupulimab later this year, which I hope will be less susceptible wider immune issues.
Not sickness, more in the case of not taking holiday- that can be a red flag.
I think that's a reasonable cause for concern. Although, personally, I'd be concerned for that employees welfare.
People have been specifically talking about not taking sick leave to be suspicious behaviour though. Not time off as a whole.
People have been specifically talking about not taking sick leave to be suspicious behaviour though
I think Northwind and Stumpy were referring to policies similar to my previous employer- monitoring time off from a welfare POV as we all need time away to recharge.
zomg-I didn’t understand a single word of that-must be the wine😀
I get a bad headache or light migraine most Mondays, starts around mid moring and gets worse as the day goes on. can't really function in the evenings.
Must be a work thing or change of sleep patterns from the weekend.
Never taken time off work for it through,
It is my experience of external auditors is they couldn't find their own arses with both hands. It is nearly always juniors that do the grunt work down in the transactions as the seniors do the managing rather than the work. It is virtually unheard of, IME, for an employee of the client to deal with the same individual auditor 3 audits in a row.
I wouldn't be relying on external audit to find anything.
People who are proud of never being off work sick are ****ing weird.
Bit OK but,
Cougar
Full MemberIt seems wild to me that in a bank of all places, the only checks and balances in place for ensuring that an employee isn’t embezzling is waiting for them to take leave/sickness so that they can surreptitiously be investigated without any cause for suspicion. Surely what you want there is some sort of random spot check or continuous monitoring?
Of course it's not the only ones, just some of the most effective and simplest (the most effective is "wait for them to screw up"). The truth is it's really pretty easy to get away with low scale fraud, there's a million ways to create interference and smoke and just enough doubt- not so much be invisible, just be normal looking, beneath notice, avoid perfection as much as suspicion. "Mistakes" and confusion and doubt and fudged records and time shifting. In large part what the monitoring ends up doing is providing the actual evidence, when you're investigating someone, but it's not so good at providing a suspicion.
And there's lots of reasons to do dodgy stuff, not all theft, which further obfuscates stuff. "Someone has screwed up and that might reflect badly on me so I'll hide it", imaginary rules, people work in weird ways just because they like it or because they don't really understand what the purpose of a process is, target beating. The blame culture was huge and that's totally counterproductive. And "There's no point trying to trace these little errors, I'll just hide them and it'll balance it out over time, it's not <wrong>, it's better for the business, the procedures are just silly...".
And THAT last is massive because that thinking goes all the way up. When I was last doing this stuff, the entire internal fraud investigation team for retail (ie branches) for the entire bank was 4 or 5 people, they laid off the sneakiest twistiest brained guy because he was expensive. Cheaper to just have "shrinkage", and any funds recovered or saved go in someone else's budget anyway. And reputational risk? They did catch a pretty big money laundering/drug deal thing in my area, it made national headlines, you don't read "bank fraud people stop crime", you read "bank staff do crime" and salacious stuff about drug deals and briefcases of money. What's even the point?
I like games and rules and systems, so I couldn't help but figure out ways to beat the systems, but for the same reason I ended up quite involved in the processes that are supposed to stop other people doing it, they pretty much self select the people who're most able to do it and set them to stop it, it's a classic cliche but it's true.
(the bank I worked for no longer exists, not my fault! But I've no reason to think anyone else is any different. If I'd wanted to take them for a small but useful enough, say, double my salary it'd have been easier than the day job and I'd have ended up investigating myself.)
I like games and rules and systems, so I couldn’t help but figure out ways to beat the systems, but for the same reason I ended up quite involved in the processes that are supposed to stop other people doing it, they pretty much self select the people who’re most able to do it and set them to stop it, it’s a classic cliche but it’s true.
We're off topic now...
I'm not sure if I've posted this before but its probably right up Northwind's street
This is what happens at my place of work, as we dont get sick pay, so folks come in regardless (not all, but most do), which as you say, spreads the love 🙁
We get told to piss off home if we come in sick. Marched out of the door type stuff, have done for the last 20+ years and three employers.
Also have to take 3 consecutive weeks holiday (can get less signed off, but needs management and Union to agree).
I've got no idea how many days i've had off sick in the last 5 years, as i just let my supervisor know and don't turn up. Rarely bother filling in the paperwork either. As i'm on a "make sure your job gets done" contract now.
Everyone gets sick, If I had an employee that’d never taken a day off in 5 years, it would ring alarm bells. Especially so if their role involved the company’s money. If they’re coming in when they shouldn’t be, then I’d also be having a quiet word.
"alarm bells"? As someone who has gone for several years without taking a day off (retired now) and managed very large budgets. What would that "quiet word" be??
@Northwind interesting reading, thanks for taking the time to type that up.
Worth noting that Nick Leeson's first foray into wrongdoing was simply to cover up a mistake he probably would have been forgiven for. He just didn't want to lose his wunderkind reputation over a daft mistake (not closing out a position that then turned bad).
🤦
Lifelong migraine sufferer here. Medicated with Triptans and more today - for the 7th time this month. Working, though, on sadly reduced output capacity, which means I will need to catch-up in my own time, pushing me back towards another migraine. Screentime is a killer for me, and I work for a long hours culture employer. I've lodged medical certificates about the need to stick to my contracted hours - but that's an unrealistic ideal.
My wider function is being restructured at present - but I am and my team have escaped, although we are back in the cycle of "succession planning" (i.e. tell the company who could do your job instead of you, and we do this every six months). So, you could say it's an effective way to make malingerers paranoid and to stop their tricks. Trouble is it also impacts those of us with real and chronic conditions.
But also, yay: Only medicated 7 times this month. This time last year I was on 18 medicated days a month.
Migraines and their downstream consequences are ****ing evil.
So if people wanna tempt the karma gods by playing a false migraine card, let them at it.
I want to go the other way. Call in healthy.
"Hi, I feel great today and the weather is nice, I can't be bothered wasting a day in the office so I'll be out on my bike!"
A mate in NZ reckons that most employers are pretty accepting of the first couple of proper snow days in winter as everyone basically does exactly that - phones in and says "there's a metre of great snow on the mountains, I'll be skiing!"
Different culture.
fenderextender
Free MemberWorth noting that Nick Leeson’s first foray into wrongdoing was simply to cover up a mistake he probably would have been forgiven for. He just didn’t want to lose his wunderkind reputation over a daft mistake (not closing out a position that then turned bad).
Yup. The biggest fraud in my area started out as a dude who, one month, couldn't pay a bill so he paid it out of a suspense account in the branch, and then paid that back a few days later. Then that worked so well he did it again, til he couldn't pay it back. Went from "harmless" fraud to "I am now a thief" by accident. But once you're a thief, well, might as well be hanged for the sheep, especially when you reckon you'll get away with it.
It's a surprisingly short and direct line from "I can't pay my rent this month because I am careless with money" to "I am now under arrest for a heroin deal involving the Bay City Rollers" Which, somehow, he was found innocent for, but it uncovered loads of other stuff. People feel invulnerable, they feel like they're too clever to be caught. (and then, they like to tell people how clever they are)
And yep, like I mentioned there's loads of little gateway dishonest things to start your slidey slope on. Loads of us had extra bank accounts or credit cards because sometimes we were slightly short of making our target. Dishonest, sure. For personal gain, absolutely. Easy to justify? Sure. Enough to get someone going into some other slightly bigger game? Almost certainly. Next month they stick the targets up to an unrealistic level and you're pissed off about it so maybe the same amount of money makes its way to you, it's not stealing, it's just what you were owed, right? It's the bank who's wrong.
Etc etc. Honesty and decency and fairness are all spectrums and they all give slightly different results.
little gateway dishonest things to start your slidey slope on
Saw that with a buyer at a company I worked at. We had a delay getting sign off on some building work, but a delay would inpact production.
The buyer managed to get a builder to start but had a risk if it wasn’t approved. Fortunately it was approved and work completed on time.
The builder’s reward was that he’d get all work from now on- just needed 2 mates to provide over the top quotes.
After a while he & the buyer got greedy - the builder got an additional cut and the buyer had work done on his house for free, all priced into inflated quotes which were miles cheaper than the “competition”.
Over the years the buyer had a 2 storey extension, new kitchen and bathrooms plus an enclosed swimming pool.
Got found out when a new site manager started who had a construction background. He thought the quotes were excessive for a new project so looked into previous ones too.
