[Closed] The F1 2015 thread...

TBH I feel very sorry for the employees at MK

It was also announced this morning that customer engines must be 2016 spec for next year.

[quote=dragon ]McLaren have had a go at Honda in public as well. I think the only reason they haven't more is they know that the car wouldn't be that good even with a better engine.

They've been pretty quiet and restrained all things considered. Your suggestion that the chassis is bad is quite clearly a load of rubbish - educated opinion seems to be that it's probably the 2nd best chassis.

Second tier, not second best as I understand it - the best being the RB with Merc very close behind (let's call that top tier) and then Ferrari, McL together (second tier) followed fairly closely by Williams.

Your suggestion that the chassis is bad is quite clearly a load of rubbish - educated opinion seems to be that it's probably the 2nd best chassis.

The evidence for that is what exactly? I don't think they have terrible chassis but probably mid table (as per Nemesis comment). Still its irrelevant really as the PU is awful and the rules restricted so much that it is unlikely to change.

I thought the Renault stalling thing was over their acceptance as a historical marque and also payment profile i.e. they want more up front.

Well, I wouldn't consider what I wrote to be putting them mid table but rather just below the top.

Anyway, this seems to be the view of the teams who do a lot of work analysing other teams' relative performance - McL have a good chassis but not the best.

Ferrari made a big step in the off season, correcting a fundamental design mistake, much as Honda will be aiming to do - the token system essentially allows a full engine redesign so it's feasible. Renault just cocked it up.

Renault's stalling is a few things - payments, and scenarios - eg RB but this link is interesting, particularly this quote

As the chatter over Red Bull pulling the plug on F1 continues, one factor that has been clear is that if the Doomsday scenario is played out and Red Bull quit, it would not be to simply sell the teams. It would be to get them out of F1 and shift the staff to work on something else.

Mind you, reading between the lines, this is probably RB's attempt to put pressure on Bernie who in turn will ensure there's an engine for RB to use.

But... this is a fairly compelling vision and RB certainly have the resources to do it

A series consisting of venues like Adelaide, Hockenheim, Magny-Cours, Brands Hatch, Estoril, Turkey, Zandvoort, Indianapolis – and perhaps soon Monza and Silverstone – would bring in the crowds.

bit late for the F1 rival series.
that's the kind of thing that's been talked about before, but they always end up re-signing the concorde agreement.

if redbull really think they can set up a new series, pull sauber with them and maybe force india, for a first race in the spring, then good luck. oh and find an engine in time too, for 2 teams.

now when it's mclaren (of old) and co hinting about a different grand prix series, it has more clout. the only clout this has is a possible grid of 16 cars next season and one pretty decent driver on the market for a seat.

Well, for 2016 it is but they could get it set up for 2017 I reckon. No need for any other teams - in fact, they wouldn't particularly need to encourage that. You set up a well marketed series (something RB are good at and IMO F1 aren't), make the cars look really cool, get some good drivers and you've got some serious potential. Particularly if you offset it against an F1 team with little value to sell if it has no engine...

As I said, it's probably just political but it's rather different to the threats of breakaway in the 2000s as RB has current history of running its own events - and of doing them well, not to mention that Bernie doesn't hold all the cards this time - Merc and Ferrari do.

It seems likely to just be political posturing to force Bernie to throw his weight around, but the scenario in that article is certainly interesting. F1 has certainly left a gap in the market with the way it's moved in recent years. I'd be tempted to add FA and JB to their list of potential drivers 😈

Good point on JB 😉

Not FA though - he needs his third F1 WC or he's behind LH (TBC)

The lotus Renault buy out was all but a done deal 3 weeks ago until Bernie decided he was not going to pay them xx amount of millions in Historic Team payments. There will never be an rbr buyout on the cards for Renault

The interesting talk of a rival f1 series is perhaps pairing but has anyone thought that red bull could just buy f1 from CVC and just change the structure and then the rules.

Alonso staying at mclaren is utter pr nonsense at the moment. When asked about his future Alonso is not stupid to rock his boat that much just yet to say he is thinking of leaving. He is keeping all his options open if teams can run 3 cars next year!!

Pretty excited about the idea of a rival series. It could certainly solve a lot of problems, and would mean double the amount of F1! 🙂

Hopefully they'll run it on alternate weekends to Bernie's F1 and keep it to non-paywalll TV. Lovely 🙂

redbull.tv probably

[quote=nemesis ]Not FA though - he needs his third F1 WC or he's behind LH (TBC)

Yeah, but LH doesn't have a Red Bull WC title

redbull.tv probably

That would make sense!

Very interesting article and I for one, feel that as it stands at the moment, F1 has run its course. Power train complexities have meant that it is extremely difficult and expensive to enter and compete and despite a Brit leading the drivers championship for the last two seasons, my interest in the action has dwindled to a passing glance at the results. Even the 'action packed' races seem to hold one or two overtakes or a chassis crunching accident.

I've watched a couple of the Formula E races that were around Battersea Park and those too were dull, noiseless, and held on a circuit that made the local country lanes where I live look like perfectly smooth and wide Autoroutes. So that option, even ignoring the fact that the cars don't last the full race, provides me with no incentive to watch anymore. I'm a fickle viewer.

A new race series, in relatively simple and inexpensive cars would be a great idea IMO and I'd love to see it happen and grow.

Alternatively, forget about televising the circuit, round and round type of motorsport and televise something like Hillclimbing instead. Huge variety of cars that the public can better relate to and against the clock. Cheaper to televise and some awesome courses could be developed for a lot less money, without even considering some of the mountain roads that already exist. Hillclimbing up to Mt Ventoux, or Alpes Duez anyone?

It's appeal could be in using older f1 circuits but also knowing red bull it could also introduce different types of racing in the one series for example
Hill climbing
Drifting
Ice racing in f1 style car
And the same goes for dirt out sand races
Rbr have run thier own f1 car on ice and in Texas on the race track before it was tarmac
Deep inside me wants this. But.. It's a big big risk....

It's appeal could be in using older f1 circuits but also knowing red bull it could also introduce different types of racing in the one series for example
Hill climbing
Drifting
Ice racing in f1 style car
And the same goes for dirt out sand races
Rbr have run thier own f1 car on ice and in Texas on the race track before it was tarmac
Deep inside me wants this. But.. It's a big big risk....

But that's not F1, and kind of already exists (apart from F1 on ice).
F1, for me, is the fastest cars, with the best drivers, designed by the best engineers. The race is about 40% of the whole F1 thing.
But I'm a geeky engineer. Others have different views.

I for one hope they do it, I used to be a big F1 fan but the sport is now getting dull its no longer about the best drivers and cars its about who has the deepest pockets. I for one think a Red Bull world champ would hopefully bring something fresh that is sadly lacking in Bernie world, the bloke should retire!

who has the deepest pockets

Hasn't that always been the case? Deepest pockets means the best drivers and engineers (=car). Ok, there are always exceptions when a new driver starts out, or someone like Colin Chapman has inspired ideas, but most of the time money buys success.
If you want close racing, F1 has never been the best formula.

 

FOr years F! has just been about who has the fastest car rather than who is th ebest driver

Reality is we do not know if seb is better than Hamilton or Alonso all we can say is who has the best engineers /designers

Given this , and teams tending to dominate, it has become more about tyre maintenance than actual driver ability
I am surprised anyone actually bothers to watch the complete races tbh. they are often like processions ans overtaking often takes place via the pits and strategy

There must be something to take its place for petrol heads surely ?

[quote=slackalice ]Very interesting article and I for one, feel that as it stands at the moment, F1 has run its course. Power train complexities have meant that it is extremely difficult and expensive to enter and compete

That's a difficult one, because F1 is supposed to be the height of technology and engine manufacturers have said they're not interested in just making big multi cylinder engines because they have no relevance to the future powertrains for road cars. If they're going to be at the leading edge then hybrid it is. What needs sorting out is some way for those who are behind to be able to catch up whilst limiting the spending - I don't know the answer to that.

Even the 'action packed' races seem to hold one or two overtakes or a chassis crunching accident.
...
Alternatively, forget about televising the circuit, round and round type of motorsport and televise something like Hillclimbing instead. Huge variety of cars that the public can better relate to and against the clock.

How much overtaking do you get in hillclimbing? Personally I reckon I might watch one or two races and then not bother.

Hillclimbing - yeah right!

If people really were interested in overtaking and close racing then BTCC would be prime-time and draw in millions of viewers.

F1 has many aspects to it, so it draws in fans for lots of different reasons.

F1 is so much more than the racing - Its the perceived glamour, the danger, the speed, the fans, the history...
If RB were serious about looking into an alternative formula then they'd do well to look at other series which have failed - A1GP and superformula are the first 2 which spring to mind. All promised close racing, decent drivers, great tracks. Both failed to take off.
Like him or loath him Berne has "made" current f1 (and by current I mean the last 30 years worth). He'll probably broker some sort of deal to make RB stay, TBH it wouldn't surprise me if they keep Renault engines for another year, especially if there is a concession to be made with regard the buying of the Lotus team...

Aye bernie will bribe someone [ not in an illegal way as he is above that sort of thing as my lawyer said the other day ] to get his way/save the day

Its a bit late but I just watched the Button Rally cross video on [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/34476954 ]bbc[/url]
Nice bit of history and genuine fun.

Its attractive racing like attractive football that people are craving for. I dont want to see them hoofing the ball up to the big guy up front.
I think Berbie has successfully lined his pockets.

[quote=bombjack ]He'll probably broker some sort of deal to make RB stay, TBH it wouldn't surprise me if they keep Renault engines for another year

Me neither - especially if that wastegate thing up there is true, at which point Renault suddenly becomes a far more attractive option.

[quote=Junkyard ]Aye bernie will bribe someone [ not in an illegal way as he is above that sort of thing as my lawyer said the other day ] to get his way/save the day

Carrot or stick? How was the TV coverage for those teams being awkward at the last race?

Looks like another Magnussen who's leaving F1 early and not going to achieve his potential...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121346

dont know I dont watch the races anymore- endless talk of tyre management and strategies because not much racing is happening- as its more fun to watch the highlights

I think F1 should be cars going as fast as the drivers dare drive, not limited by tyres or fuel flow/amount, and less constricted design. Try that for a year or two and see if that brings back the excitement.
for sure, the team with the most money will probably win most, but with more innovation allowed, you get things like the Brawn team suddenly dreaming up something amazing

We had some of the worst racing when the cars were like that.

Also, there's a limit to how fast the cars should go - fans don't want to see drivers killed and that's the risk if you open things up too much.

FWIW, I agree that innovation should be the target rather than just more iterations by having more money. I loved the McL F-duct because it was simple but had a clear advantage (though funnily enough once other teams did it, their solutions were better). Allow that sort of thing for the season and and then ban them.

TBH it wouldn't surprise me if they keep Renault engines for another year

I think Renault will still bear the brusies from this year and all RB's name calling and bad press.

If Renault have their own team, that will be the focus for any engine upgrades, not the RB whine squad. So they will still be behind in the engine game.

They've had a crap year and played it really badly. McL have had a worse year and (for the most part) been loyal to Honda.

McL are not talking about flouncing off; despite having their worse year ever.

I'd rather have the kind of racing we had then than using artificial aids like DRS to "improve overtaking". If we're going to have DRS, then let the drivers use it whenever they like (or dare)

I disagree actually though I don't like DRS. It's worth noting too that plenty of overtakes are non-DRS ones at present and those just weren't happening in the 2000s.

Anyway, ground effect and remove the reliance on the wings would massively reduce the issues of losing downforce when following other cars.

ground effect and remove the reliance on the wings would massively reduce the issues of losing downforce when following other cars.

But would increase danger when clipping wheels. The bad old days of getting a 'launch' would return.

It's no good having lovely soft barriers when the cars go over the top.

Restrictions on engine development in season look like they will be eased. Honda must be happy!

What would be wrong with a handicap system built into the token allocation?

But would increase danger when clipping wheels. The bad old days of getting a 'launch' would return.

It's no good having lovely soft barriers when the cars go over the top.

[img] [/img]

They wn't launch. Too slow, too heavy

Does Bernie reckon his position completely impregnable then? I was going to describe his latest utterances as controversial, but actually I don't think there is any controversy over how wrong headed they are. Just a couple of choice selections:

If people allegedly have been corrupted to make things happen in their country, it's good. It's a tax football had to pay.

no place for democracy (in Russia)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/34552570

The sooner we're rid of him, whatever that takes, the better

Bernie might talk rubbish, but he's 80+, rich as f*ck and have you seen his wife ?

There's a bloke who wont care what anyone thinks and probably knows he hasn't got much longer to enjoy life.

I hope I'm enjoying his lifestyle when I'm that old. But chances are I will be wearing a nappy in some run down old peoples home, dribbling into my soup.

Its a shame the judicial system in Germany spared him jail.

There's a bloke who wont care what anyone thinks and probably knows he hasn't got much longer to enjoy life.

I guess the same comment could be levelled at any dictator in the world past and present. How they rally round each other. I guess media moguls fall into the same category too 🙂

Evening. Everytime a new circuit is introduced a bit more of me leaves F1. I think Silverstone will be gone soon, they had to defer 2015's F1 payment. So in 2016 can they afford 2x'?

New souless, fanless tracks plus Bahrain who wants that?

Bernie was relevant once. He was a maverick team boss, he represented the teams and ensured they received a better deal and he brought F1 into living rooms.

However, the sport I used to love has become an extension of Bernie's wheeler-dealer ego, dripping in diamonds and indulging despots to the detriment of the circuits and spectacle that attracted me to F1 in the first place.

the fact that there's only three and a half engine manufacturers in the sport should have gotten alarm bells ringing long ago, but the fallback position is for three car grids.

How many engine manufacturers did it need to make a good competition when Cosworth were supplying engines in the 70s??