[Closed] The creation museum

The frustration and anger that someone elses choice of belief causes some of you reveals underlying issues.

as for faith that is fine what parts of the book do they have faith in and what parts do they not have faith in
How do i know what parts to have faith in and what parts to ignore ? is their a manual do i need faith in that or is it just accurate?

Faith does not why someone chooses to follow a book they know that parts of it are wrong

The reason I am so incredulous it is is literally irrational and when you choose this option you open yourself up to ridicule whether it is insisting in creation or the world being flat or any other number of factually incorrect accounts of reality.
In fact it is so irrational that the DSMV needs to put in a clause to exclude the religious from classification
as for ridicule i believe the book offers some advice on how to deal with that but i am not sure if that is one of the true bits or not 😉

Anyone is allowed to believe anything but that does not give them a special pass to avoid ridicule

Northwind

That's really only 2 positions, literal and not-

Technically, I suppose you are right. But in matters as complex as faith, it goes beyond A or B, black or white. I can believe a part of something, and disbelieve the other part of it. Perhaps I'm not explaining myself well but I think it's potentially very fluid for some people.

gears_suck -

The frustration and anger that someone elses choice of belief causes some of you reveals underlying issues.
If you don't want to see it or hear it, step away. If you don't want to visit, go somewhere else.
If you see the title of a thread and think. Ooo, just what I've been waiting for. A chance to put down someone. You need help.

What you see online vocalised by atheists is a reaction to all the times they were accosted in the street and told they were going to hell, or the years or decades of bullshit religious upbringing. Online, it's an even playing field where each side of a debate can (in theory) be presented and debated without group pressure, peer pressure, intimidation, shouting and where the cult of personality holds no sway.

I've never been stopped in the street by militant atheists telling me I would suffer eternal misery for not being an atheist, I've never been insulted or harassed by atheists. Atheist politicians don't discriminate against gays or lesbians because of imaginary voices in ancient texts.

Putting people down, in real life in public is the preserve of the religious. It's there that atheists politely walk on or step away.

The reason I am so incredulous it is is literally irrational and when you choose this option you open yourself up to ridicule whether it is insisting in creation or the world being flat or any other number of factually incorrect accounts of reality.

Can anybody who's actually read the Bible tell me how many people God killed? And how many people the devil killed?

Should make for an interesting if very simplistic bar graph.

Just to add, my personal beliefs are very simple, do what ever you want unless it will cause harm to others.

Religion doesn't generally fit into my belief.

I can grasp faith* you believe something incredulous that has no proof to back it up

to ridicule is a choice. Does the opportunity presented demand the act?

* Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen
I can also discuss Corinthians and through a glass darkly if you really want to . you seem like the scholarly type 😉

Farron as an evangelical christian "Christianity is not a bit true. It's either wrong or utterly compellingly true"

for me its all about consenting adults in private. Bring your faith into the public realm and you reap what you sew

Religion is like a penis. Its Ok to have one, its fine to be proud of it and to enjoy it but please don't wave it around in public and try to stuff it down my throat

Belief that the Old Testament is allegory and the New Testament factual seems to be fairly common amongst Christians I know (and I guess makes some logical sense on account of them being followers of Christ, not Moses etc)

I knew opening this thread was going to be a mistake.

May is a 'Christian' too, what's your point?

You can check out just what they really belive in by checking out thier voting history.

On a thing called the internet.

May is basically homophobic, and Tim has consistently voted in favour of Gay /trans whatever rights.

Look it up, it's not a secret.

The frustration and anger that someone elses choice of belief causes some of you reveals underlying issues.

That's all well and good when it's a choice taken by an adult. What about children who are indoctrinated in to faiths from a young age and not given a choice? I have no issues with anybody's beliefs I have issues with opening museums teaching those beliefs as fact, with no evidence to back them up.

It would also be nice for young women who choose to have abortions not to be harassed. Say what you will but people who need to push their beliefs on to others and spread lies regarding the age of the planet now they are the ones with some serious underlying issues.

Mattyfez - May is not an evangelical

the point I was making is to evangelical Christians every word of the bible is 100% true.

Farrons voting record is actually much worse than you think and so are his public utterances - however that debate has been had before on here.

[quote=scotroutes ]Belief that the Old Testament is allegory and the New Testament factual seems to be fairly common amongst Christians I know (and I guess makes some logical sense on account of them being followers of Christ, not Moses etc)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (NIV, Matthew 5:17–18)

I do not disagree that they do all sorts of things unfortunately none of them make sense and often they are based on just ignoring what is in the book they follow/believe/have faith in.

Mattyfez - May is not an evangelical

the point I was making is to evangelical Christians every word of the bible is 100% true.

Farrons voting record is actually much worse than you think and so are his public utterances - however that debate has been had before on here.

I've read his and May's voting records.

The difference between Farron and may is he puts his personal belief behind, where as may is playing on whatever she thinks she can cash in on.

and i doubt she's even religious, she's just playing to a crowd.

All the info on what they've voted for is online, i suggest you do a comparison, and you perhaps can engage your brain.

The quicker religious indoctrination of children is be made illegal, the better, it's child abuse, deluded the lot of them.

Mattyfez sorry you are simply wrong on Farron. Voted to restrict abortion multiple times. Voted against equal rights for homosexuals multiple times, Abstained when it was party policy to support proposals for equal rights, signed a letter demanding the ASA allows adverts that state prayer can heal. Plenty of other examples but as I say we have done this to death on here

He can do no other as he believes every word of the bible to be true and he must adhere to its teachings.

You must have a different Internet to me.

[url= https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/11923/tim_farron/westmorland_and_lonsdale/votes ]https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/11923/tim_farron/westmorland_and_lonsdale/votes[/url]

jimjam - Member

Technically, I suppose you are right. But in matters as complex as faith, it goes beyond A or B, black or white. I can believe a part of something, and disbelieve the other part of it. Perhaps I'm not explaining myself well but I think it's potentially very fluid for some people.

I think I understand your point but it's 2 slightly different matters. Yes, most people of faith pick and choose the parts of their religion that they want to follow, and that's a personal choice (and to some extent a question of your sect, as well). So that's fluid. But believing it to be literally true is all or nothing.

I don't personally understand how people reconcile that; not so much the pick-and-choose thing (to me it's hypocrisy; but that's OK, most people are hypocrites about at least some things). But the fact that people expect other people to take their picking and choosing seriously. Like, I'm supposed to respect your religious stance on the sanctity of unborn life or the sin of homosexuality, and give it special consideration because it's a matter of faith, but not notice when you commit adultery, or stand in judgement over others, or store up for yourself the treasures of the earth

[img] [/img]

Mattyfez at the great risk of both raking up old ground, diverting this thread and pissing off folk who have heard this argument before

Even your link shows him voting agaisnt party policy and against equality but his common tactic is to abstain even when its party policy to vote for

direct quote from the man

“Take the issue of abortion. Personally I wish I could argue it away. Abortion is wrong,”
“wrong at any time” and that it was “too widely available” and needed “tighter restrictions”.

and he voted for those tighter restrictions including voting for a common tactic of anti abortion groups - insisting on a compulsory cooling off period and compulsory pre abortion counselling

He voted for allowing public servants to discriminate against gay people wanting to get married but abstained on the final vote

In 2007 Mr Farron voted against the Equality Act (Sexual Orientation) Regulations, legislation which outlawed discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation in the provision of goods and services.

Plenty more examples of this. Yes since becoming leader he has attempted to wriggle out of this with weasel words but his actions speak louder

How can anybody believe that the whole of the earth flooded? I mean surely all the water would just pour off the edges.

faith easily vanquishes your scientific concerns

aracer - Member

How can anybody believe that the whole of the earth flooded? I mean surely all the water would just pour off the edges.

The arctic ice walls.

Tj its frikin semantics, abortion is generally wrong, but you've provided no context.

I'll start you off..

Abort from a rape pregnancy? Is that OK?

I am not going to argue the point any more. Its clear from his public pronouncements and his voting record that his personal beliefs are worth more to him that party policy or equality

I do love that pic of two male lions going onto the ark. Thats a particularly good one. That and the pictures of Jesus riding dinosaurs.

Jesus as a blond northern european type is funny as well.

gears_suck -
The frustration and anger that someone elses choice of belief causes some of you reveals underlying issues.
If you don't want to see it or hear it, step away. If you don't want to visit, go somewhere else.
If you see the title of a thread and think. Ooo, just what I've been waiting for. A chance to put down someone. You need help.

I am not going to argue the point any more.

I'm not arguing, I'm asking you personally if you think someone who is raped, whether they should have that choice to abortion.

I would say yes, what do you say?

Of course I would say yes. I believe in a womans right to control her own body without any reservations or caveats. Same as I believe in equality of all without reservation and I believe public servants should not be allowed to discriminate because of their religious beliefs

Another aspect of the debate mikesmith / gears suck is having

i believe very strongly in that people should be allowed to die in a time and place of their own choosing. the religious are stopping this from happening.

If the religious don't want this for themselves fine. their choice. Why do they feel it needed to thrust their views on me and deny me and mine that choice.

this is where religion is simply wrong when religious folks try to use their beliefs to control others who do not share their beliefs

+1 Mikewsmith

The world will be a much better when we stop brainwashing our kids.

There really should be a law against teaching shit like that to kids like it's fact, it's disgraceful, it's child abuse.

If that's not a good enough reason for speaking out against religion I don't know what is.

I do love that pic of two male lions going onto the ark

Kinda blows the 'God hates fags' argument out of the water. Hahaha!

Is it me or does the lamb look worried? How did Adam get such a neat cheek and neckline for his beard? These are the questions I need answering.

[img] [/img]

funkmasterp

How did Adam get such a neat cheek and neckline for his beard? These are the questions I need answering.

He probably kept his beard so neat and tidy using an obsidian razor.

Or he may just have used magic. TBH Adam's grooming is probably the least troubling aspect of the museum to me.

 

got to admire the ignorance of religious nuts.

got to admire the ignorance of religious nuts.

Not when it's wilful/cynical profiteering and exploitation of the 'genuinely ignorant/brainwashed'

Not when it's wilful/cynical profiteering and exploitation of the 'genuinely ignorant/brainwashed'

I was being sarcastic but you managed to describe every church that's ever been in your reply

Many (probably most?) Christians don't look at the Bible in those terms, and nor was much of it written to be viewed in those terms.

Whilst I'd broadly concur with the first half of that statement, I'm going to call you out on the second.

When it was written, it was absolutely intended to be viewed in those terms. Humans are inquisitive, they want answers to big questions. The Bible was an early punt at answering those questions. People - including great scientists, astronomers - have been put into exile or worse for daring to question some of the 'scientific' claims made in the Bible. Galileo spent the last ten years of his life under house arrest for his heretical theories around heliocentricity.

The notion that the Bible was always supposed to be viewed as a collection of allegories has as much basis in historical fact as the Museum of Lies in the OP.

Anyone is allowed to believe anything but that does not give them a special pass to avoid ridicule

Whilst I'd agree with this, the dinosaur in the room here is whether ridiculing people is a particularly nice thing to do.

Jesus as a blond northern european type is funny as well.

And Adam with a belly button.

Also - a book of allegories is a very odd thing upon which to base a religion, is it not? I don't think many people would have signed up to follow the teachings of Fictional Jesus.

Deciding which bits are fact and which bits are intended to be "just" stories is problematic. If one part of the Bible is questionable, surely that throws the veracity of the rest of it into question? So what do people do in modern times, they pick and choose what to believe in based on what bits they like, and then get cross when someone suggests that their "faith" may not be wholly accurate because it must be true, it says so in the Bible.

It's not a dichotomy I'd relish having to deal with. If nothing else, being an atheist is a whole lot more straight forward. You base your understanding on available knowledge and evidence, and if later something comes along which shows that you were wrong then you can easily revise your understanding. Religion's stance of "this is the way it is" has little scope for evolution (ah, irony), there's no mechanism for revising things we now know absolutely to be untrue.

Veering wildly back on topic - anyone else think that museum is massively detrimental to kids' education, dangerous even? There could be potential future scientists and academics visiting that place who are being brainwashed (literally - that video of teachers talking about evolution looks the sort of mind control thing you'd see in a movie) into rejecting established science and stunting what could've been a promising career. Some kid who, perhaps, would otherwise have gone on to cure cancer, or a revolutionary renewable energy source. Shocking stuff.

"I'm all for free thought, but i would make this stuff punishable by death."

Yep - this stuff is [i]literally[/i] a crime against humanity.

"Put simply.
"Faith."
It requires no proof. "

It requires no THINKING - it's a lazy, superstitious, cynical, mediaevally ignorant way to absolve yourself of personally responsibility for the ****ing mess the world is in (caused in no small part by "faith"); and it's the essence of hypocrisy, because it allows you to judge everything else - science, empirical evidence - by the same lazy "facts don't matter" standards.

Revelling in ignorance is your choice, but don't you DARE try to argue that "faith" has the same evidential value as rational, scientifically demonstrable truth.

Yes it is cougar. I think religious indoctrination is very dangerous. Places like that should not be allowed by law to claim its anything but a fairy story. Not some sort of truth

However I guess that parents who take kids there will already be indoctrinating them so the damage will be done - just reinforced by the visit.

Sadly TJ is absolutely right. Kids who are visiting that place will be doing so with their parents. That's my biggest annoyance with all faiths / religions. By all means believe in what ever you wish, but let your children make their own minds up. Forcing your archaic beliefs on to your children is wrong.

Places like that should not be allowed by law to claim its anything but a fairy story

Exactly. We should use the full force of the law to force people to think only correct thoughts.