[Closed] STW 2014/15 Rugby Thread

* Wood included on "English media" above 😉

Ireland have been steady. A bit grinding. And done enough to be 2 from 2. no more. Don't agree that this France team are so bad, but we'll see against other teams.
Ireland are a team in transition, 5 starts for their first choice centre pairing as opposed to hundreds as previously, a relatively new (good) coach, and a decent batch of young players coming through.
There's some real talent too, but injuries make a difference as there isn't the numbers of players as a France or England. If they can avoid more injuries and the other "experienced" fellas hang in there, they can have a good year hopefully.
Fairly excited at the potential, rather than confident based on proven class is a better description.

k57
Do you still think this is England's second team , like you claimed earlier when you were getting your excuses in before the Wales match?

Kryton57 - Member

Yes I do. I think that if the usual suspects would have been fit they would be in the team.

BUT I do think some of this lot - JJ being the obvious example - have suprised Lancaster and moved themselves into contention for first team places in the Nirvana that might be a fully fit set of 30 or so players.

JJ vs 36 or Barritt?
Haskell vs Wood?
Billy V vs Morgan
Kruis / Attwood vs Lawes/Launchbury?
Marler vs Corbs?
Hartley Vs Webber?

Like others, I'm not sure I'm convinced about just how poor Wales performance actually was/how good Englands was until we face Ireland.

Fairly excited at the potential, rather than confident based on proven class is a better description.

Ireland play well to a very specific gameplan and have done for a little while now. I don't think they are particularly "over-hyped" IMO, more steady performers that you know what you are getting from them. I don't think they are going to bother the SH teams but it isn't a stretch to see they take the 6N. I don't think many people in the media or otherwise have ever said much beyond this.

There are rightly good expectations for Ireland but the difference with England is that the players are not giving interviews in the media like they've turned a corner in two games and are now suddenly world beaters. England have played slightly differently every few games for the last few seasons with pretty different teams each time. They are almost burdened with too much talent, albeit talent that changes from game to game and doesn't have a huge amount of caps under its belt. England have too many good players but no world beaters IMO, despite Bombers claims England now have "X-Factor" coming out of their ears

Then you should stop making stupid* statements

*In your opinion of course

As per the theme du jour, care to point out which ones are "stupid"? and before you do, just to clarify:

[i]From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Look up stupid in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

Stupid may refer to:

Stupidity, a lack of intelligence
Stupid (art movement), a group of artists in Cologne, Germany, in the 1920s
"Stupid" (song), on Raven-Symoné's self-titled album
"Stupid" (Sarah McLachlan song), on the album Afterglow
"Stupid", a song by Swedish musician Per Gessle on his album The World According to Gessle
Stupid!, a UK children's television show on CBBC
Stupid.com, a web site[/i]

Asking me if I had spoken to the England coach,or your trolling rubbish about the Welsh last week.

That does annoy me. After the failure of the "valleys industry" you'd have thought they'd thank us for creating money & employment while we pour money into that Bridge and the local economies when we visit the Trail centres.

Hey Kryton57 - just do a bit of deep breathing and.......calm. 😉

This thread is just about people's opinions, mine included. If you like, I'll add "in my opinion" to every future statement.

I believe England have a PE teacher with no prior experience of international rugby as their head coach and an ex RL forward as their backs coach.

They have stumbled upon the current style of playing purely because of injuries. If OF was fit would they be playing the same way?

SL has struggled to identify the best players from a vast pool of talent. Partly because the coaching team seem obsessed with the stats on their laptops rather than what's actually happening on the field.

How else could Goode be preferred to Foden? Farrell to Cipriani? Barritt to anybody?

(In my opinion.) 😆

despite Bombers claims England now have "X-Factor" coming out of their ears

Scotland; from what I have seen it has to be Hogg?
Wales; Gotta be JD2?
Ireland; Bowe? Sexton?
France; hmmm. Fofana would seem the obvious answer but he's not been much kop so far.
England; Most would probably say JJ, but IMHO it's Watson.
Italy; Has Parisse got the X factor? Are we allowed forwards? Robinson?
What say you?

What say you?

France have plenty of "X Factor" players.

Parra, Trinh-Duc, Picamoles, Fickou - Oh! Hang on a minute, none of them have been picked. 😆

I never realised Trinh-Duc was a Vietnamese name but there you go:

Trinh-Duc was noted as one of the first ever rugby players of Vietnamese origin to play for the French national side. His paternal grandfather, Tr?nh ??c Nhiên, was born in French Indochina, migrated to France during the First Indochina War, and settled near Agen in Lot-et-Garonne. Nhien later married an Italian woman, and Trinh-Duc's father, Philippe was born.

Hey Kryton57 - just do a bit of deep breathing and.......calm.

Well fair enough, but over the last few days Duckman does appear to have personally targetted me each time I've posted, having seen his best mate apparently take a "rest" for a few days after playing out the same treatment. Like I said, they can dish it out with all the anti-English sentiment but they can't take the opposing jibes, as demonstrated by his post above which is indicative of him still seething about it...

So, my humble and sincere apologies AA and Duckman and other Welsh folk for my antagonistic post, but if you could in future post with equal respect to us English and leave out the Orc comments that'd be nice, cheers.

Getting on with Rugby then;

They have stumbled upon the current style of playing purely because of injuries. If OF was fit would they be playing the same way?

SL has struggled to identify the best players from a vast pool of talent. Partly because the coaching team seem obsessed with the stats on their laptops rather than what's actually happening on the field.

How else could Goode be preferred to Foden? Farrell to Cipriani? Barritt to anybody

I agree with this sentiment, and perhaps I've been negligent in not communicating it correctly.

Well done. 🙂

Nope,my pop at you was based entirely on your post about the Welsh. Nor is AA either my best mate,or am I targeting you,I posted about SL not having a plan,you demand I clarify it as in my opinion.And I would like to to ref my anti English sentiment. But apology accepted.
And after all that,have you also just agreed with me as NMB has just posted what I have said about the inability of England to choose their style of play/best team.

Like I said, they can dish it out with all the anti-English sentiment but they can't take the opposing jibes,

Dear God get over your self we are talking about a game no more no less 😆

What was the Orc comment? Isnt that what all forwards are known as?

One of the things I love about rugby is the good-natured banter between opposing supporters

TJ named the English team the Orcs and MJ the Orcmaster (or reported it on here). Ant-English sentiment I tell you,and from an Englishman as well!

I thought it was from the Trundle Orc tactic (or similar) used so successfully over the years? 😆

the difference with England is that the players are not giving interviews in the media like they've turned a corner in two games and are now suddenly world beaters.

They have stumbled upon the current style of playing purely because of injuries. If OF was fit would they be playing the same way?

Are they?

Anyone think we're going to see a JJ wing and Tuilagi centre combo come world cup time?

Yes. Burrell, Tuilagi JJ, Watson and Brown on the same pitch interchanging where appropriate, at very least Tuilagi as an impact sub and May goes off JJ to move onto the Wing.

Assuming good form, oooof...

Now that actually looks like a good set of backs. I've not felt like that in 10 years!

TJ named the English team the Orcs and MJ the Orcmaster (or reported it on here). Ant-English sentiment I tell you,and from an Englishman as well!

Wasn't that the Australian press in 2002/3? I'm sure I saw a picture Vickery, Rountree, hooker (can't recall the name) and some others with fangs and little pointy horns from an aussie paper.

Wasn't it `white orcs on steroids' in 2003 in ref to the size and demeanour of the England pack? Not sure why anyone would get in a tiz about that unless I'm missing something.

The problem with Tuilagi has been that if you stopped him you stopped England. Admittedly he's pretty hard to stop, mind you.

He can't/won't pass so the outside backs rarely got any decent ball from him. Inside centre might have been a good place for him if he could have been taught to play there in the way that the ABs converted Ma'a Nonu from a Tuilagi-esque wing to one of the world's best 12s.

I don't think England have the coaching ability to that, however.

Except that simply isn't true when he plays for Leicester. He off loads more often than goes to ground, and often puts other players away due to the fact he get attention of at least 2 guys every time he gets the ball.
He's asked to do a job, bash it up, take out 4 defenders and maybe break through if there's only 2. Not entirely fair he then gets stick for playing to the game plan!
Will be very interesting to see him develop next season when Aaron Mauger has had time to teach him a bit more and hopefully, bring a bit to fight back to the Leicester backs!

But that is a club level tinybits,he doesn't do it for England. I think England would be better served with Burrell as the blunt and Joseph as the sharp. I also think you have to find space for Dailey.

Not sure why anyone would get in a tiz about that

Burrell as the blunt and Joseph as the sharp

Me too. Burrell does a lot of stuff better than manu. He misses less tackles, is far better and more willing to contribute at the breakdown, kicks better and has a better rugby brain. He's not as blunt as some think. I can see either manu or JJ as super subs. I can't see them both playing.

anyone think we're going to see a JJ wing and Tuilagi centre combo come world cup time?

would make more sense the other way round.
Pointless playing JJ outside Manu. Wasted skills.
But if he's quick enough, and can cope with the defense, then Manu's a decent finisher/strike runner and could get put away nicely by a centre who can pass.

Will be very interesting to see him develop next season when Aaron Mauger has had time to teach him a bit more

Good point.

would make more sense the other way round.

Manu isn't fast enough to play on the wing at international level. He proved that in the 1st Test in NZ.

Ireland should be favourites for the match and the championship, but it's always a relief when the anti-English vitriol begins. Sure sign that we are doing better than expected. Phew, that's a positive.

Just watched Rugby Club on BT Sport - Adam Jones said he retired from Wales because they weren't picking him. Madness!!

Madness!!

I don't know, sounds like a pretty good reason to retire to me

anti-English vitriol begins

😆

I mean madness for Wales to discard him coming up to RWC!

Seems that Roberts will end his contract early in France to return back to our fine shores. Interesting to see that the big money France bubble seems to have burst for a lot of the big names... realizing that getting no game time and the setup in some teams isn't great for an international career. It would be nice to see mini Jiffy get some decent game time and form ahead of the RWC too.

I mean madness for Wales to discard him coming up to RWC!

It is all a bit of a weird situation, there must be more going on. Having said that, Adam hasn't managed to last too much of an international recently and isn't super dominant in the scrum any more so you can understand looking elsewhere for backup. Maybe he just threw a wobbly on being overlooked this one time? Wales's answer to BOD-Lionsgate? 😀

I mean madness for Wales to discard him coming up to RWC!

I know, I was joshing.... 😉

I don't know if you've seen it, but he was the main guest on RT. He seemed to suggest that he hadn't heard at all from Gatland about either his non-selection or retirement.

Yes, was surprised at Adam Jones, however he simply wasn't as good after the hit got taken out of the scrummaging. He was good in the loose for 40, but faded badly after that. All good things come to an end I suppose.

realizing that getting no game time and the setup in some teams isn't great for an international career

It's funny that - people bemoan the fact that players are playing too much rugby and then suddenly playing less is a bad thing. I think the moves to France that have worked have been when the player has gone to the right club for them and they've also bought into the culture.

JW's career was improved and extended at Toulon. Nobody seems to have been especially happy at Racing Metro, Sexton is coming home too isn't he?

Is the problem in France not TOO much game time? I read Sexton played nearly twice as many games last year as the year before.

I think the problem for Irish players in France would be that at home they're paid by the Irish Union and get rested as they see fit whereas in France they're paid by the club and used accordingly.

English players come from a background of the clubs running the show too and when they go to France they no longer have the extra burden of international rugby to think about.

"Italy are without Martin Castrogiovanni afet he suffered severve facial injuries after being mauled by a dog." 😯

Italy are without Martin Castrogiovanni afet he suffered severve facial injuries after being mauled by a dog."

Are you sure it wasn't the other way around?

🙂

's funny that - people bemoan the fact that players are playing too much rugby and then suddenly playing less is a bad thing.

Just on the news that Roger Lewis, Group CEO of the WRU is standing down after the WC. I detest that man!

Unless other news has come in, "mauling" is probably overstating it...I thought it was "bitten on the nose". 🙂

Wasn't he due as guest of honour at Edinburgh Zoo? Never mind Martin, it's a shih-tzu anyway matey.

Mike Brown looking unlikely to start against Ireland.

Wasn't that the Australian press in 2002/3? I'm sure I saw a picture Vickery, Rountree, hooker (can't recall the name) and some others with fangs and little pointy horns from an aussie paper.

The NZ press after the 2003 England win in Wellington (the six man scrum game).

Here is an extract from Eichard Hill's book

The next day, I picked up the local newspapers and came across one of the funniest post-match analyses I had ever seen. The article said the England pack looked like “giant gargoyles” or “a tribe of white orcs on steroids”, adding: “Forget their hardness – has there ever been an uglier forward pack? Small children who stayed up late to watch this Test will be wetting theirs beds for weeks.”

Mike Brown looking unlikely to start against Ireland.

Hmm. It looks like Goode is in. I don't doubt him under the high ball but he lacks Browns temerity I think. And with Sexton at 10 assuming Billy V and Burrell don't take him out of the game 15 is important in this game I feel, 100x so if May stays on the pitch.

Manu isn't fast enough to play on the wing at international level. He proved that in the 1st Test in NZ.

Fair enough, wasn't sure , did say [i]"if quick enough"[/i]. Think it's one or the other, then.
The balance in the backs looks decent at the mo. Less one dimension than recently.Personally, think they could benefit from a little size maybe - would be interesting to see the Bath Fijian given a run outside his clubmate.
Think putting Manu in at 13 would change that balance tbh. Frightening impact sub though.

Unless other news has come in, "mauling" is probably overstating it...I thought it was "bitten on the nose".

Although I read "14 stitches" which is non trivial 😕

Meanwhile Jamie Roberts released early by Racing Metro

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/wales/11430428/Jamie-Roberts-could-be-released-early-from-his-three-year-contract-with-Racing-Metro.html ]Back to Cardiff??[/url]

Although I read "14 stitches" which is non trivial

Oh right, I stand corrected then. 🙂 (had only heard early reports on the radio yesterday)

Couple of pages back we had a little discussion on choke tackling v gatlandball.

Gatland's mouthpiece has had his say, which in my opinion is the strongest indication yet that England got their defensive tactics spot on first game.

[url= http://www.espn.co.uk/six-nations-2015/rugby/story/257417.html ]Edwards calls for ban because it prevents entertaining rugby[/url]

Does he mean "prevents running through people instead of round them?"

It looks like Goode is in. I don't doubt him under the high ball but he lacks Browns temerity I think.

Even that is too optimistic I think. Goode is properly sh1t at international level IMO! I wish England would throw Pennell in and accidentally on purpose discover another asset to the multi-faceted attack England have

Dats cold DD.

Is the problem in France not TOO much game time? I read Sexton played nearly twice as many games last year as the year before.

Sexton is an unusual one but still seemed to want to come home from pretty early on in his contract. I can't think of many current home nations internationals going to France and thriving. Most of the Welsh boys have gone and got fat and lazy(er). 1/2p may be the exception and be one of the few to stay in form and be at risk of struggling with too much rugby.... and ironically Phillips was probably playing the best and most frequently in France but still came home a shadow of his former self. You can't compare the success of Wilkinson in France as he had retired from internationals and was such a legend he was afforded quite a lot of flexibility in managing game/ training time... maybe there is something in the specific teams too as mentioned above. Anyway, can't say it has done any of the Welsh boys making the move any good!

Even that is too optimistic I think. Goode is properly sh1t at international level IMO! I wish England would throw Pennell in and accidentally on purpose discover another asset to the multi-faceted attack England have

Agree and disagree. Goode is shit. Pennell isn't that good either. Watson should be at 15 with Nowell replacing him on the wing. Understandably SL doesn't want to put someone with so few caps in vs Ireland.

Goode is shit. Pennell isn't that good either. Watson should be at 15

Pennell looks pretty good from what I've seen of him (not that much) but Watson should be at fullback, no doubt. He'd be more of a threat with a bit more time and space to run the ball back.

Thing is, SL is over cautious. He'll always go for the known (even if it's shit) rather than the unknown (even if it's brimming with potential).

At least Goode is solid under the high ball and kicks well. Both of which will probably be handy against Ireland. However, if he does that stupid little skip thing about 20yds before he meets any defenders I'm gonna SCREEEEAAM!

I've seen Pennell a few times this year. He's a good player, but international? I'm doubtful.
I'd bet at least one front rower on saturday could beat Goode in a foot race. It's like they slow time down when he runs.

15-Leigh Halfpenny, 14-George North, 13-Jonathan Davies, 12-Jamie Roberts, 11-Liam Williams, 10-Dan Biggar, 9-Rhys Webb; 8-Toby Faletau, 7-Sam Warburton (captain), 6-Dan Lydiate, 5-Alun-Wyn Jones, 4-Luke Charteris, 3-Samson Lee, 2-Scott Baldwin, 1-Gethin Jenkins

Replacements: 16-Richard Hibbard, 17-Paul James, 18-Aaron Jarvis, 19-Bradley Davies, 20-Justin Tipuric, 21-Mike Phillips, 22-Rhys Priestland, 23-Scott Williams

Most of the changes we thought we'd see... and some odd ones like Baldwin. Maybe a kick up the ass for Hibbard combined with trying to add some strength on the bench for a full front row swap on 50 mins? Happy to see Williams, Charteris and Davies bumped up a place from last round

Well, no real surprised as Lancaster drops May for Nowell, and awaits Browns recovery:

Forwards: T Youngs, Hartley, M Vunipola, Marler, Thomas, Cole, Brookes, Kruis, Attwood, Easter, Haskell, Croft, Robshaw (captain) B Vunipola.

Backs: Brown, Pennell, Goode, Watson, Nowell, Burrell, Twelvetrees, Joseph, Ford, Cipriani, B Youngs, Wigglesworth.

He did actually name the team though did he. But we all know what it will be.

But we all know what it will be.

If Goode is there to cover for Brown why is Pennell there too? 12T on the bench again? Or maybe if Brown doesn't make it he might start with Pennell and have Goode on the bench?

Don't understand having Easter and Croft on the bench with no specialist lock although they can both cover there but if Lawes and Parling are fit why not one of them on the bench?

Training squad to be cut down for match day, hence some overlap?

Perhaps Lancaster wants Watson get more game time on the wing as Brown is nailed on for Fullback when he's fit.

I'd bet at least one front rower on saturday could beat Goode in a foot race.

My money would be on Sean Cronin if he gets on. Maybe the Youngs hooker/ex centre fella too. 🙂
Not Mike Ross.

Did you see the Hibbard chase for Hogg's turnover try last time out.
Proper running through treacle with time slowed down effort.

ps - match's on Sunday.
Maybe if Ross starts running on Saturday...

Brown out - that's not goode news because it looks like we'll stuck with Goode at fullback. He's turd. He looks OK in the prem but he isn't an internatioanl - not enough pace or power. I read some stats somewhere (Telegraph I think) that he's been turned over more than any other player in the prem. That bodes well against a side who are good at the breakdown. Hmmm.

Bomber has some big decisions when Manui is back - he is a one off, but does he unbalance things too much? He doesn't offload enough for me but more importantly he does shoot out of defense too much looking for the big hit. Burrell isn't flashy, but tackles pretty well, can spot a gap and can put others away. He did really well last 6N too.

I (like many I guess) get frustrated with Bomber - his favourites that have credit in the bank normally come back despite form / game time (Farrell in the AI's). He's reluctant to change even when there is someone else tearing up the prem / Europe.

I simply can't believe that Goode is the next best fullback! I know Foden is injured (and on form, I rate alongside Brown) however Watson, Tait, my grandmother (and she's been dead for 17 years) are all better bets than Goode! In fact, I'd rather have Watson at fullback and Nowell / May / ANother on the wing. I suspect that Cipriani should be ahead of him in that position as well!
Agreed with lancaster and the credit in the bank thing however Tuilagi has to be there purely because of the amazingness of that set of brothers.

Yup pity Foden is injured. Goode will get the job done though, he needs to be safe under the high ball and kick to clear well. We have enough threats not to need him to do anything spectacular ball in had.

I suspect that Cipriani should be ahead of him in that position as well!

The opportunity has come too early but Mike Haley has been outstanding for Sale this season, a product of the academy. Italian international Luke McLean hasnt had a sniff (Although he looked good for the national team)

Don't understand having Easter and Croft on the bench with no specialist lock although they can both cover there but if Lawes and Parling are fit why not one of them on the bench?

Croft is a fine player but I am not really sure what he brings to the England squad? Yes he's quick and good in the lineout but he doesn't do enough of the donkey work expected of a backrower. I always find myself getting frustrated with him loitering on the wing and not tackling / carrying.

Not sure about Easter either - yes he's been in good form (took some saying that as I'm really not a fan) but is he an impact sub? People alwats bang on about his great rugby brain but this never translates for England. His one noticeable contribution against Wales? Getting a try disallowed. Don't fancy him as a lock either.

Tuilagi has to be there purely because of the amazingness of that set of brothers.

But at the expense of who? JJ has been pretty darn good so far and brings genuine pace to the midfield and Burell is actually a 12. Most Tigers fans I know don't fancy Manu at 12.

It's a shame Foden got injured just as he was getting back to his best - plenty of pace and pretty powerful too.

Goode-We have enough threats not to need him to do anything spectacular ball in had.

If I were an English fan I'd worry more about wanting a 15 who could tackle 😉 That said, I don't think Ireland are the team to really tax a full backs tackling skills, as above, he'll spend his time catching and putting the long boot to use.

However, if he does that stupid little skip thing about 20yds before he meets any defenders I'm gonna SCREEEEAAM!

Mega lolz 😆

But at the expense of who?

You're forgetting something here. Come the summer, Farrell will be back at fly half, leaving barrett at inside centre and therefore completely negating the need for a 13 like JJ. Tuilagi will be back, and he won't get any ball either but will fix defences and allow others to play a bit.

It's quite depressing really!

You're forgetting something here. Come the summer, Farrell will be back at fly half, leaving barrett at inside centre and therefore completely negating the need for a 13 like JJ. Tuilagi will be back, and he won't get any ball either but will fix defences and allow others to play a bit.

It's quite depressing really!

True...all that credit in the bank will ensure that they'll be straight back in.

When you say others play a bit, what you mean is for Farrell to shovel rubbish ball on and kick away good attackin ball?

At least Bath fans will be happy - they really missed Ford and co against the Saints on Saturday.

It's a shame Foden got injured

It's a great shame - I think he's one of England's best players in ANY position. However, SL rates him behind Goode as a fullback. When the EPS squad was set to be named Foden was destined for the Saxons and Goode for the EPS.

It's quite depressing really!

Maybe SL will see the light as his hand has been forced. Maybe not.

France:

B Dulin; Y Huget, R Lamerat, W Fofana, S Guitoune; C Lopez, M Parra; E Ben Arous, G Guirado, R Slimani, R Taofifenua, Y Maestri; T Dusautoir, B Le Roux, D Chouly

Replacements: B Kayser, U Atonio, V Debaty, J Suta, L Goujon, R Tales, M Bastareaud

In case you haven't seen much of Guitoune:

At 1:50 he sets up an amazing try with a phenomenal bit of counter attacking.

There's a fair bit of disdain about this on FB too - Faz has had to "endorse" Goode and Nowell.

Ah well, we didn't want to win the GrandSlam and get too comfortable anyway...

Bit of a strange French team but I think Parra will be a real thorn in Wales's side- not great that he is starting

Ah well, we didn't want to win the GrandSlam and get too comfortable anyway...

"scuse me Kryters, I think you'll find the green machine are the underdogs at the weekend. 😀

We're going all going to do great at the RWC against the SH sides if all that matters is being underdogs 😆

Ah no, I reckon the green machine would start favourites against SA and Aus...maybe slight underdogs against the ABs. 😀