All the candidates for SNP leadership seem to be rolling back on it.
This. The scheme has come under widespread criticism within Scotland. It seems reasonable to pause it pending a review. I don't think that trying to blame Westminster helps.
I can't see a UK wide bottle return service being implemented by any government no matter what their leaning.
We can't even create a common UK recycling system. It differs hugely even between adjoining local council areas. There are 3 systems within 10 miles of where I live.
Its sheer spoiling from Westminster. Can’t allow those uppity scots to have their own progressive green policies showing up westminster policies and there is zero chance of a UK wide scheme
Perhaps, but its also some massive Holyrood muppetry (1) not to have sough the consent the scheme needed in advance; (2) to not look to agree a UK wide approach (so e.g. the labelling could be the same for both) - if Whitehall is really the problem there there's been a surprising silence from the Scot Gov who usually love a change to blame them; (3) to show that cross border cooperation is possible and if we get our own country we can behave like grown ups on issues where cooperation makes sense. Westminster should have been delighted to let the Scots pilot a scheme they could simply extend if it was a success or laugh and point if it was a disaster!
That said simply blocking stuff because it doesn't suit rUK is a dangerous game. Regardless of any legal challenge, it feeds an indy argument that "our perfectly valid policies are not compatible with the rUK, we need out". I think they believe they can win Scottish tory votes by saying "look, we save you from the biggest craziness of the nats". The only people I've spoken to that think that is good would vote tory regardless.
I can’t see a UK wide bottle return service being implemented by any government no matter what their leaning.
We can’t even create a common UK recycling system. It differs hugely even between adjoining local council areas. There are 3 systems within 10 miles of where I live.
But that disparity is true in Scotland too and from a technical perspective there is no reason why the Scottish scheme could not work across 32 local authorities here so I see no reason why a UK wide scheme would not work. The main contention within Scotland seems to be should glass be included (I have no strong views either way, although the noise against seems to be coming from people who didn't want smokings bans, campaigned against drink drive limit changes and argued the toss on covid so I'm not pre-disposed to thinking they are right!). The main contention outside Scotland seems to be that the two schemes are not unified - ie. labelling etc has not been standardised so you may end up with Scottish specific packaging etc.
I take it none of you have ever bothered to read the small print on a beer bottle or can where it lists the refund available under various deposit schemes from Denmark to New Zealand?
And of course glass should be included! God forbid pubs have to put bottles back in crates rather than flinging them into a bin.
My problem with the bottle return scheme is that it's actually way more inconvenient for me. At the moment I recycle all my glass and plastic bottles - they go into a recycling box or wheelie bin and are then collected by the council and recycled (hopefully). This is really easy and convenient. With the proposed scheme, I will now have to save all my recycling at home and then return it the designated machine or shop where I will get my money back (as a voucher?).
I can see how it may increase the recycling by people who currently don't, so understand that this is the point.
With the proposed scheme, I will now have to save all my recycling at home and then return it the designated machine or shop where I will get my money back (as a voucher?).
Looking at it another way, surely it's as easy to get them to where they were purchased as it was bringing them home?
As for 'hopefully', that's very much the operative word here.
I take it none of you have ever bothered to read the small print on a beer bottle or can where it lists the refund available under various deposit schemes from Denmark to New Zealand?
But bottles intended for the UK market only won't have that. Changing your labelling process is a PITA, but to have to do it now AND again in a years time is a PITA. I wouldn't assume either Scotland or UK have bothered to replicate successful approaches elsewhere. Both far too full of our own belief that we can do it better!
And of course glass should be included! God forbid pubs have to put bottles back in crates rather than flinging them into a bin.
I agree - but do you know if glass bottles in crates get reused (presumably more efficient) or recycled (actually bottles take up more volume than smashed glass so potentially less green). If the argument is that bottles in crates are reused and therefore more "eco" than smashing melting and reforming glass then the Scot Gov are missing a key bit of messaging.
My problem with the bottle return scheme is that it’s actually way more inconvenient for me. At the moment I recycle all my glass and plastic bottles – they go into a recycling box or wheelie bin and are then collected by the council and recycled (hopefully).
I guess we don't know how much of plastic bottles make it into proper recycling or not? Certainly not all councils do kerbside recycling for glass.
This is really easy and convenient. With the proposed scheme, I will now have to save all my recycling at home and then return it the designated machine or shop where I will get my money back (as a voucher?).
I think the problem is the public know little about how this will work in reality. So the only people making a noise are the hospitality sector and drinks industry. For example, is there a plan for people who get on-line shopping? It feels like they've missed a major bit of messaging opportunity - but given who is leading the scheme I'm not surprised that everyone is confused!
st66, that's a good point, there may be unintended consequences here. My recycling bin can take glass, plastic and metal. If bottles were recycled via a nother mechanism what happens to the jars, tins and plastic trays. COuld make the collection of these as a separate stream even more uneconomic.
I'm just wondering as well whether this will actually be environmentally friendly, great if you're back hauling the empties on delivery vehicles but in many cases that won't be the return route.
What we really need is primarily a reduction packaging, the amount on premium products in particular and the size of some packaging vs the contents is obscene combined with mixed collections from home seperated in a dedicated facility to maximise the recovered volume. All we need then is a market for the recyclables which current doesn't take anywhere near enough. As usual this is being done the wrong way around, eliminate or reduce the packaging in the first place, increase the percentage of packing made of recycled materials, then the collection and recycling of the waste won't actually be a major problem as there will be less to collect and an incentive to do so as it becomes a lot less expensive to dispose of vs normal 'waste'.
The Scottish scheme seems to be harking back to the good old days.
I guess politically it's good to pretend you're having an original idea so there might be some resistance in government to simply saying, 'Look, they've been doing it in Scandinavia for years without any problem.'
Here in Norway I've been taking my empties back to the supermarket for years and getting enough back for a brand new full can of beer. Every supermarket has a machine to do the returns and the small shops don't.
I'm not sure how the hospitality sector does it here but none of them seem to have been put out of business because they have to deal with the empties.
There's been various queries raised and a lot of small businesses, both in the beverage industry and small retailers are worried about it, from simple things such as storage and overhead costs, to larger issues in terms of manufacture of bottles and so on.
There's a lot of other queries, like the additional cost of multipacks, roll out of machines, the sign up rate of small businesses and how it'll impact them if they don't sign up before it's launched. This is why two of the three candidates say they'd cancel it and rework it, and the third, Kate Forbes, say's she'd delay it by a year.
These aren't English or Welsh issues or discussions on the DRS, it's from Scottish businesses and individuals, not sure how it's got to the UK parliament to be discussed, would need to read up on that.
As for the UK scheme, it's coming in 2025, https://www.gov.uk/government/news/deposit-return-scheme-for-drinks-containers-moves-a-step-closer
As for the UK scheme, it’s coming in 2025, https://www.gov.uk/government/news/deposit-return-scheme-for-drinks-containers-moves-a-step-closer/blockquote >
Actually, your link says it'll only apply to England, Wales, and Northern Ireland. Not the UK.
There’s been various queries raised and a lot of small businesses, both in the beverage industry and small retailers are worried about it, from simple things such as storage and overhead costs, to larger issues in terms of manufacture of bottles and so on.
I don't really understand why Scotland is so special that the answer to these queries isn't just, 'We'll do what they do in Norway/Denmark/Sweden'
My problem with the bottle return scheme is that it’s actually way more inconvenient for me.
That may just be the price of radically reducing the amount of plastic and glass waste.
Actually, your link says it’ll only apply to England, Wales, and Northern Ireland. Not the UK.
Yep, only due to Scotland launching their own scheme though, this will make the DRS UK wide when launched, if Scotland launch this year of course.
I don’t really understand why Scotland is so special that the answer to these queries isn’t just, ‘We’ll do what they do in Norway/Denmark/Sweden’
Not sure why, but most of the Scandinavian systems have been in for a generation, and have the infrastructure and normality that it's part of life now, not sure what the infrastructure and processes will be for the Scottish roll out, it's something that's needing to happen, but whatever the issues are, it's still causing an uproar.
Anyway, it's a long way from the old days of Barrs and Bon Accord bottles getting you 10p (and 20p in the end!) a bottle, i used to up my pocket money by returning dumped bottles!
As for the UK scheme, it’s coming in 2025
Whats that? a pig just flew past
Whats that? a pig just flew past
Had you heard of the rUK scheme before 26 minutes ago?
so once again Scotland is prevented from having its democratically elected leaders enacting the policies they were elected on by an undemocratic Uk government
...or once again the SNP has fumbled its handling of a policy over a number of years and then their poor understanding of UK law (which provides the framework for the whole Scottish parliamentary system) has tripped them up?
I don’t really understand why Scotland is so special that the answer to these queries isn’t just, ‘We’ll do what they do in Norway/Denmark/Sweden’
Exactly.
Or Germany, where you can literlly walk into a shop and deposit an entire crate of bottles at a time which go back to the brewery for reuse, exactly as we used to do with Barrs glass cheques.
See also Travel Cards - they can't bloody do that right either, constantly 10 years behind technology. Could have just bought the Oyster/Octopus/Similar mass transit system but no, let's make something in-house that is constantly delayed and playing catch-up.
Back on topic - I assume all those structures that have been appearing outside various Aldi's are the deposit banks? Wonder how much they will be due in compensation if it all gets scrapped?
Final TV debate going on just now, the DRS getting a kicking from most, this is really depressing watching these three battle it out, Humza just looks desperate, Kate looks like she's been watching US debates for tips, Ash looks like the most normal of the 3, but probably the outsider.
Its all very depressing really. I can see this becoming an existential crisis for the SNP if Forbes gets it. A large part of the party and the vote will not vote for her. Greens would quit the coalition. next holyrood election we get a labour / tory coaltion.
Yousaf is hardly inspiring
Regan is right wing but does support assisted dying unlike the other two although she is against trans rights
Murrell goes as well
OK so I did feel they needed a refresh if not a period in opposition but this is getting ridiculous.
The kids will be happy. The return of the Glass Cheque.
I'll wager theres a number of bottle merchants on here. Paid for my sweeties bitd.
Live from Bute House
[url= https://i.postimg.cc/9f6nN1gp/Saigon-hubert-van-es-1.jp g" target="_blank">https://i.postimg.cc/9f6nN1gp/Saigon-hubert-van-es-1.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
🤣
Of course, now that Murrell has resigned, he won't have to answer any questions about his £100,000 "loans" to the SNP.
I’m being naive but what exactly is (allegedly) wrong with a ‘loan’ ?
I've never quite understood this one either. Weird thing to do but whats actually wrong? covering up misuse of funds or something? I don't know
They're all at it, for me it's only when it's criminal or smearing that i'm bothered in terms of hounding them out, reality is these loans are what all parties tend to get, be that cash loans or loans of property and support, i.e. functions paid for, candidate IT/Stationary support, etc, etc. From the stories i believe he's left due to something about the SNP members issue that's been talked about lately.
Personally, i do think something has happened to push Sturgeon out, more so now seeing the quality of her replacement contest, there's something going on internally, first they replaced Blackford with pretty much an empty suit, now Salmon is off with either a bit of a laughing stock or a bit of a right winger favourite to replace her!
What's wrong with a loan?
1) the SNP (which is managed by the husband and politically led by the wife) didn't declare it for a year after they should have
2) if the party is broke and owes you a hundred grand, and you can call in the loan any day, then you are in a position to precipitate the party's bankruptcy if it displeases you (or your wife)
3) the SNP loves "Tories are out of touch with reality" stories - but meanwhile the electorate is asked to believe that loaning someone £100,000 is such a run of the mill thing that husband didn't even mention it to wife.
Personally, i do think something has happened to push Sturgeon out,
I don't think so. I believe what she said. she has been deputy and then FM for 12 years. the timing allows all the fighting to be over and done with before the next election and for the new leader to create their own policies.
more so now seeing the quality of her replacement contest, there’s something going on internally,
yes there is - there is a power struggle between the left and the right and between the gradualists and the independence now lot
I actually think that some potential candidates are keeping their powder dry for after the next Holyrood election. the next leader will just be a caretaker until then. After the next Holyrood election I expect the SNP to lose a few seats and for a labour / tory coaltion to take over.
the candidates are not great for sure.
I just do not know enough about the loan to be sure. I guess if it smells fishy it is? Electoral commission just gave them a slap on the wrist for it
£100,000 loan.
Membership income stable despite the, vehemently denied, drop in members.
"£600,000 gone AWOL from the Indy fundraiser."
Might all be connected?
Did anyone else listen to the News Agents Podcast on Friday ( https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5jYXB0aXZhdGUuZm0vdGhlLW5ld3MtYWdlbnRzLw/episode/MmU3ZTZhMDktZDdmZC00YzdmLWFlYzEtNzk5Zjk2YTg2NTc5?ep=14)
IMO Regan came across very poorly. I'd be far from happy with her as FM (it was never going to happen anyway mind you). Bizarrely Blackford (who obviously isn't standing) who I've always found pretty unappealing came across much better.
But yes, wheels are well and truly off. Maintaining competency(or a veneer of) as the leading independence party was pretty key to the core argument bringing some of us over the line to the independence is best side. A broken SNP is going to test the independence resolve of many voters. Depressing times.
I think this all rather goes to show the fragility of the independance argument that Westminster is full of terrible politicians and we need to get away from them so our better quality of politician can lead us. Goes to show the there are a handful of politicians that are half decent but it doesn't really matter where you are most of them are not.
There are plenty of other reasoned arguments for independance (which can still be argued either way) but I think this puts pay to the cult of the SNP vs Westminster. Can only se this damaging the independance vote going forward which hopefully will allow the local politicians to tackle the real problems in Scotland but they will still probably just blame Westminster like Westminster blamed the EU for all of the UKs ills and look how that turned out.....
"£600,000 gone AWOL from the Indy fundraiser.”
Exactly. Whether it is a muddle or a fiddle it doesn't scream competence. How hard is it to pay funds raised for an Indy campaign into a bank account separate from the general SNP party account?
Sturgeon was good at politics but not good at getting things done. It needs more than just passing laws.
"Legally binding" NHS waiting times for example.
stumpyjon
Full Member
I think this all rather goes to show the fragility of the independance argument that Westminster is full of terrible politicians and we need to get away from them so our better quality of politician can lead us.
I agree entirely. So much of the Independence platform's thinking is made up of mystical appeals to a Scottish politician or voter that is more enlightened, less racist, more European, more forward-thinking than the average British politician or voter. Why? Because they just are. And then you have very similar problems - black men killed in the street by police, venal politicians - and there's totalt silence on the part of Scot Nats.
Maintaining competency(or a veneer of) as the leading independence party was pretty key to the core argument
This is absolutely right. Support for Scottish independence has consistently been below support for the SNP. This means at least some voters were voting SNP despite its independence position, not because of it.
The attractive thing about the SNP has been its slightly boring, mainstream European social democratic platform of competent government. This is not a bad thing considering what else is happening in Europe! But if it then turns out the competence was a charade, and the healthcare and education wasn't that good...then what?
Kate Forbes heads SNP candidates among public - poll
Kate Forbes is viewed more favourably by the general public but Humza Yousaf is most popular among SNP voters, a new poll has suggested as the two vie for the party’s leadership.
With just days left in the contest to succeed Nicola Sturgeon in Bute House, Ipsos Scotland released a survey of 1,023 Scots carried out between March 17 and 21 - 427 of whom voted for the SNP at the last Holyrood election.
According to the poll, Yousaf is the most popular among SNP voters, with a net favourability of 11%, compared to 6% for his rival.
But Forbes can lay claim to the highest net popularity among the general public with -8%, compared to the Scottish Health Secretary’s -20%.Former minister Ash Regan polled the worst of the three candidates.
I just do not know what to make of this. I just wish they had a better candidate. Forbes is personable and it would be good to have someone out of the central belt but her position on equality is unnacceptable to me (as is her position on assisted dying - but that is probably not a significant factor to most) and more importantly to a significant section of the party. I really think she would split the party. Mhari Black was particularly scathing about her
Yousaf is just terminally dull
Regan is the only one to support assisted dying and the only one ( despite being a bit to the right?) that I feel I could trust. she is also the only "independence now" candidate. somehow she is the outsider?
I'm not that close to all this tho. I just want the best for my country. I'm pretty scunnered by the lack of political nous and talent here
[Regan] is also the only “independence now” candidate. somehow she is the outsider?
The SNP has been more popular than the concept of independence for years. But I'm surprised she wasn't more popular among the party membership.
she is also the only “independence now” candidate. somehow she is the outsider?
Regan had a lower profile to start with. A truncated hustings (against SNP constitution) hasn't helped her. The current leadership has spent the past 9 years saying now is not the time. That message is still with the membership so alternative strategies are considered to be pie in the sky. The most ardent/commited indy supporters have likely already left the SNP too (I don't believe the majority of the 50,000 lost memberships are due to GRR. Mine wasn't.), so it's hardly a surprise that she's not winning amongst those that are left.
Yousaf? Last seen reversing away from his commitment to a court challenge of the Section 35 on GRR. Handy that he left it until the votes were almost all cast and that there's no way of folk altering their vote. He's changed almost ever policy he started with, has a shit record in his various ministerial roles but is, without doubt, the one favoured by the current leadership. That gives him a lot of membership votes.
Forbes. Your position on equality is what you should be questioning. As I've already said, if you cant follow up the word religious with anything other than the word bigot then you're not as inclusive or progressive as you think you are. In a democratic party, policy should be made by all the party members. I don't see that if SNP policy was in favour of, say, assisted dying, that the party leader should/would have a veto. Of course, that's not the way the SNP has been governed these past 9 years, where democracy has been basically stripped away.
With either of Forbes or Regan I think there will be a bit of a "drains up" undertaken within the SNP. It would be need to carefully balanced. Reform is needed but too much looking back could split the party. If a few of the dunderheids (like Black) and grifters (like Wishart) find it's not for them any longer then at least what's left holds some promise for the future. If it's Yousaf then you can say goodbye to any hope you ever had of seeing indy in your lifetime.
The SNP has been more popular than the concept of independence for years. But I’m surprised she wasn’t more popular among the party membership.
Errmmm - is that really true? Both poll around mid 40s %
Scotroutes. I have no real issue with folk that keep their religion private. Forbes made it 100% clear that she could not not and her vote would be based on her religion on matters such as equality.
How a social democratic party can be led by someone who believes intrinsically that some folk are worth less than others - and that is her position
I call out bigotry where ever I see it and what ever the reason. It is not acceptable to me to have someone that believes discrimination against certain groups in society is acceptable
Its blatent discrimination based upon her religious belief - what is that but religious bigoty?
the church of scotland does not believe in discrimination against homosexuals or women ( I don't think any more)
It is not acceptable to me to have someone that believes discrimination against certain groups in society is acceptable
So you're a bigot.
ONly towards those who believe in discrimination against certain groups.
Jeepers dude - I worked for a religious organisation once. I used to take folk to church in my own time, I have fought for folk to have their religious rights respected. I regularly give money to a school founded by religious folk - but that school has a non discriminatory policy
I will not accept anyone saying "its right to discriminate against people based on their sexuality because my religion says its right."
In the 21st century do yo think its acceptable to discriminate against homosexuals? forbes does.
Errmmm – is that really true? Both poll around mid 40s %
Yes - SNP vote share trends above support for independence. Point is not all SNP voters even want independence, let alone independence now.
Yes – SNP vote share trends above support for independence
citation please
You're discriminating against her based on her religious beliefs.
I have fought for folk to have their religious rights respected.
But only the ones you approve of.
Anyway, as above. In a democratic party she has one vote.
