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Personally I’d say ditch the safety argument, most people don’t care, slap cameras everywhere and increase fines astronomically as people do care about cash.
Dangeourbrain for Minister of Transport!
I think we mostly get it right TBH. There has to a balance between educating folk to safer driving habits as well as enforcement. We do pretty well in stats showing numbers of deaths/ millions of citizens. I've driven in some places that you'd expect a good standard (Canada, I'm looking at you here) and their standards are frankly lousy by comparison.
Is it definitely a multiple of gross weekly income?
That would seem a little harsh to higher earners, as it’s a higher percentage of take home pay (i.e. it’s more weeks of actual take home pay for a higher rate taxpayer than for a lower rate taxpayer).
No it is actually based on "relevant income" which is "net". There's also a default rate of £440 for people who don't answer the questions properly, so magistrates can decide to stick to that rather than by punitive for your honesty if you say £1100/wk (and can consider other factors like your outgoings for 4 kids, 2 wives, etc). They also have discretion over things like the road being quiet, dry etc. to reduce the sentence and then will give you 1/3rd off for pleading guilty early so you might actually walk away with 440*0.75 (for being a driving god) * 2/3 (for not trying on a technicality) = £220 fine + 32 victim surcharge + 85 prosecution costs... payable at something like £50/month... Given parliament set a maximum fine of £2500 for speeding on the motorways and its not gone up since 1992 - some people might consider it generous. (There is an anomaly where fines for non-motorway speeding are limited to £1000 - its likely though that 72).
I’d probably get less of a fine for assaulting someone which seems ridiculous
In England the sentencing guidelines for "low level" (my words) assault are the same A/B/C fines so pushing someone to the ground and not causing an injury might result in a similar scale of fine to 74 in a 50. BUT of course, not that many high earners are getting involved incaught committing silly assaults. The courts often don't have particularly useful sentencing options available; I'll bet every magistrate in the country would welcome some more creative sentencing options than fines both for speeding and assault.
Dangeourbrain for Minister of Transport!
You wouldn't want to do that. For starters I'd completely pedestrianise every town/city centre and throw up free park and ride instead. I'd ban on street parking, ban car journeys under 3 miles and hang people who park within a mile of a school.
Cameras are safety cameras...
I've always thought it's weird that they were called safety cameras.
If you had a cat camera, that only took a picture when there wasn't a cat, it'd be pretty disappointing.
(and can consider other factors like your outgoings for 4 kids, 2 wives, etc)
Do local bike mechanics count towards that?
Do local bike mechanics count towards that?
LOL!
Do local bike mechanics count towards that?
I was only speeding in order to take my bike to the local mechanic* Your Honour!
*for the fourth time this week...
😉
The red circle around it means ‘Must not’/’Do not’ So a red circle around a fairly universal universal sign to stop means do not stop…
Wrong. It means it's a mandatory instruction. You must observe and apply whatever is in the circle.
Apparently 10,000 drivers are over 12 points but aren’t banned due to the “hardship” exemption.
It is an astonishing statistic isn't it; even if you correctly call it "Exceptional Hardship", or consider the actual number of 9382. But lets break it down.
There are c. 40M full driving license holders in the UK. So that is 0.023% of drivers...
About 36,000 drivers each year DO lose their license through totting up. Given there are about 1.9M with 3 points on their license, it does seem like accumulating points is a significant threat for most. Since points last for 3 years, we can probably assume that the 9382 are roughly evenly spread over that time, so ~3K people per annum... so fewer than 1:10 people who hit 12+ points successfully argue they would suffer exceptional hardship. Whilst you can certainly argue that something that affects one in ten of us is not that exceptional, I think you could argue that it is far from ordinary and perhaps the system is not as flawed as a headline "10K drivers still on the road with 12+ points" would make out.
Whilst you can certainly argue that something that affects one in ten of us is not that exceptional
And to further clarify, although 1 in 10 sounds a lot to be in exceptional hardship, numerically that's less than half of those getting 12points who are likely classed as in poverty (20% of the UK population pre covid, up to 23% last year and expect more this year).
Of course accumulation of 12 of more points when your life depends on it might mark out a bigger issue but being able to plead exceptional hardship isn't it.
We do pretty well in stats showing numbers of deaths/ millions of citizens.
"Pretty well" compared to other countries, not "pretty well" compared to what _could_ be done to lower deaths.
1750ish people per year dying in plane crashes in the UK, or in swimming pools, or using washing machines, would prompt *massive* changes in safety measures, and national outcry. It's only because it's normalised by happening everywhere that we shrug and assume everyone will naturally drive as dangerously as they're able to get away with, most of the time.
I wonder if a cheaper alternative to “slap cameras everywhere” (and deal with all the infrastructure / loophole boll*cks) would be adding a black box with GPS to every car – and *reducing* fines, but making those fines much harder to avoid. If I had to pay £5 _every_ time I went over the speed limit, I’d watch my speed a lot more closely.
The problem with any sort of 'client-side' solution is that the people who actually need to be black-boxed will just knobble it and plead ignorance.
You wouldn’t want to do that. For starters I’d completely pedestrianise every town/city centre and throw up free park and ride instead. I’d ban on street parking, ban car journeys under 3 miles and hang people who park within a mile of a school.
Would still get my vote other than the hanging bit as not into that.
Of course accumulation of 12 of more points when your life depends on it might mark out a bigger issue but being able to plead exceptional hardship isn’t it.
Years ago I accrued 12 points over three years. Two SP30s and an innocent screw-up due to a 20 minute gap between two consecutive insurance policies. At the time, my mum had just had a stroke and she was reliant on me for regular hospital transport. I tried this defence - it's not my mum's fault that I was an idiot - and the court ruling was something like "whilst I accept there is hardship, there is not exceptional hardship..." I netted a fine and a six month ban.
The notion that you can simply cry "hardship" and walk away with 72 points on your licence is the domain of tabloid newspaper headlines and Tory politicians. It's not that simple.
You wouldn’t want to do that. For starters I’d completely pedestrianise every town/city centre and throw up free park and ride instead. I’d ban on street parking, ban car journeys under 3 miles and hang people who park within a mile of a school.
Oh I like you very much.
hang people who park within a mile of a school
@dangeourbrain I live within a mile of a school. Am I allowed to park on my drive on compassionate grounds? Or something.
Am I allowed to park on my drive on compassionate grounds? Or something.
Of course. Its your drive. I mean, chances are if you live within a mile of a school you'll be in a pedestrian zone so you won't actually be able to drive up to our away from your house but, you know, I've nothing against you parking your car on your land.
Would still get my vote other than the hanging bit as not into that.
Given the alternative is probably run by G4S or Serco I think I'll take the rope
Would still get my vote other than the hanging bit as not into that.
You can't have everything.
dangeourbrain- right on the money!
You can’t have everything.
Well that's it isn't it, hanging is obviously undeliverable once in office as not to put off anyone who doesn't agree but in a manifesto it's a vote winner with the older generation who you need to vote for you.
A lot like bringing back national service, though in practice when it turned out by national service I really meant actually serving the nation and was sending school leavers to help out with aid projects in darfur or help asylum seekers get to the UK without needing to paddle over the med on a lilo they'll be unhappy.
Of course by then they can mutter all they like but they're already stuck with me for 5 years.
You wouldn’t want to do that. For starters I’d completely pedestrianise every town/city centre and throw up free park and ride instead. I’d ban on street parking, ban car journeys under 3 miles and hang people who park within a mile of a school.
We've nearly got enough support to get you on a ballot paper.
Have to say, I much prefer your policies to the current bell ends.
dangeourbrain
Full Memberdon’t let that stop you picking one line out of it and going into preach mode,
Your post really did read like “I find it too hard”
I was giving reasons why folk could find it hard, I use managed motorways around Bristol almost every day and see the same bad behaviours daily, speeding occurs all the time as well as those who do them regular know where the actual cameras are.
I also understand the way they vary the speeds, almost always the same limits at the same gantries, as well as the proper lane to be in for my exit, but those using them for the first time will be struggling I’d guess.
My driving manifesto - sorry if you read it before
1/ Black boxes for all. Hopefully never to be used, but if you do have an accident or get pulled for speeding or RLJ'ing or whatever, then the black box data is then accessible. Was it really the only time or do you always drive like a nobhead? Punishments to be based on behaviour as well as the incident.
2/ Mobile phone use - your SIM card and number is disabled / taken over by the authorities and a recorded message / text autoreply set up advising that the phone has been disabled for [appropriate time] because they were using it while driving. So everyone knows and it becomes socially unacceptable
3/ You KSI someone because of your driving / speeding / inattention. You go with the police officer and knock on a door and explain to their wife and kids that Daddy's never coming home again because you had to get to the pub 30s earlier than you would have if you weren't driving like a prick. I'd let you face that consequence as the kids eyes well up, you utter bastard.
If ypu could replace hanging with a good flogging im putting in 30 quid to the fighting fund
Increase the use of average speed camera zones nationwide
Its really simple
Get the local folk to designate 10 streches of road that are rat runs, race tracks etc. Buy 1 camera amd a load of empty boxes.
A lot of paint on the road, a few signs to keep it legal.
Then move around the camera once a week to cover the neds favourite boot it stretches of road
Constant revenue stream
Plus logging of uninsured, untaxed vehicles and cars being used by banned drivers
£57k is a good salary by most people’s standards. Around double the average.
It's in the top 5% of earners in the UK, so pretty good is an understatement.
Its not so much the fine that is the deterrent for me. The points would be a blemish on my , so far, exemplary 30 year clean driving record. Not that ive been squeeky clean during that time......
Waze is my friend.
Would smart motorways using average speed cameras to stop the “brake for the camera” behaviour be a good idea?
Judging by the hard of thinking on the Orwell Bridge not a chance. Many of them brake at every camera still and then hare off to brake again!
@theotherjonv 3b You are never allowed to drive again.
4 If you fraudulently obtain and use a blue badge you get a mobility disability inflicted by the state and you get to keep the blue badge.
I mean, I didn’t know speed cameras enforced variable limits. Apart from those average speed check ones which have been around for a while. It’s quite a new thing this SMART Motorways system where the speed cameras also adjust to the variable speed limits and these go off instantly if one doesn’t slow down to the new variable speed straight away.
It’s been that way on the M5 at Bristol either side of the M4/M5 junction, for at least five years, from back when I was driving for BCA, and then there are the average speed cameras through sections of road works, like the twelve-fourteen miles or so on the M5/6 around Birmingham at that time. The M4 has something like thirty miles of camera controlled sections from roughly the Newbury/Basingstoke junction to London, varying between 50-60. I was using my TomTom satnav on my phone through CarPlay all the way on Monday, and that shows average speed as well as current speed, which is very handy along with cruise control, and my EcoSport reads a bit fast on the analog speedo, about 8-10%.
£57K not being much?
Ha! I wish, I’m not badly paid now, compared to previously, but that’s still more than twice my salary.
@theotherjonv I have a 3b subsection 1. As the officer introduces you to the family he simultaneously hands them a cattle prod and damp cloth that they can, at will electrocute your genitals with.
Say you were confused about the metric/imperial units.
What's that in chains per evensong?
That salary after tax, national insurance, etc is not really a lot
Oh yes it is - perhaps double the national average putting you in the richest 10% of the population or even 5%
Its really simple - if you cant do the time don't do the crime.
I have been done for speeding. Both times a bit sneaky ( a 50 mph limit for 2 miles and a camera van on a dual carriageway overtaking bit.)
Matters not one jot. I was speeding, breaking the law and i was caught. fair does. Paid my fine and got my points. the only person who is to blame was me
And to add the OPs further posts show IMo driving without due care an attention - if not reckless driving
You need to either retrain or hand your license in - you are a danger on the roads
You need to either retrain or hand your license in
I'm not convinced the photo on it won't be
Oi - where did you get that photo of me?
You need to either retrain or hand your license in – you are a danger on the roads
I will if I get 12 points.
A danger to the roads ? Apart from car parking and very slow speed accidents, the only bad crash I've been involved in was the other persons fault!
In the same way that your current concern is "just a mistake"? 🙂
If I ever get to 12 points I will hand my license in for however long the ban is. Not when someone on this forum suggests I do so.
As for dangers to the roads, the real problem is all these ****s who are very often tailgating me when I'm driving at or just slightly above the limit.
As for dangers to the roads, the real problem is all these **** who are very often tailgating me when I’m driving at or just slightly above the limit.
Much as I also dislike it, tailgating doesn't make it onto the list of the Fatal Four. So it's annoying but they're not 'the real problem' at all.
As for dangers to the roads, the real problem is all these **** who are very often tailgating me when I’m driving at or just slightly above the limit.
Be sure to tell the court/police that if they get in touch, should tell them all they need to know about your ‘mistake’.
Sometimes tailgaters get what they deserve. Yesterday I was overtaken on the Leighton Buzzard bypass heading towards the A5. An older BMW followed by a brand new convertible Merc. BMW doing at least 90, Merc going even faster. Merc gets right up the arse of the BMW which then accelerates hard kicking out a huge cloud of black smoke into the face of the Merc which was being driven with the top down. Ha ha
or just slightly above the limit.
You utter clown. You just don't get it, do you?
I never knew these variable speed limits were so strict otherwise I would have paid more attention and slowed down a lot sooner.
So admitting to driving without due care an attention
I mean, I didn’t know speed cameras enforced variable limits
IOgnorance of the law is no excuse.
Yes, I was doing in the low 70’s to account for the speedometre overreading and was only intending to do 70mph.
So deliberatly breaking th enational speed limit even before hitting the 50 limit
No it was just a mistake. I never knew much about Smart Motorways until now, and never realised that the reduced speeds were so mandatory.
I never thought they were any more serious than the advisory limits. I think it’s because Smart motorways are a relatively new thing and I never really researched what they are until now.
I rarely drive, I live in scotland where there are no "smart motorways". I know what smart motorways are and how speed limits work
I never knew SMART Motorways have been in place for 15 years.
Again - ignorance of the law is no excuse You have a requirement to understand road law if you want the privilege of driving
But not reacting to a variable speed limit in time, when the motorway looks clear as far as I could see, it’s just a mistake.
You were already deliberately driving over the national speed limit. YOu then ignored a reduced speed limit. Its not for you to decide when limits are needed
I would invoke hattersleys law if I were you - " When in a hole stop digging"
I really hope this is a wake up call for you and you bring your standard of driving up to a basic minimum to make you safe because at the moment your ignorance and entitled attitude makes you an unsafe driver.