I don't understand why you are so keen to give the islands to a country that has no meaningful relationship with the population?
Me ? You don't understand why [b][i]I[/i][/b] am so keen to give the islands to a country that has no meaningful relationship with the population ?
What am I .... the UN Secretary General ?
TandemJeremy - Member
big and daft - if the wishes of the islanders are the only thing that counts why does this not apply to Diego Garcia?
I don't know enough about it, it sounds like I would support the islanders from the little I do.
FFS dependent territories are not an exception. The US, Australia, NZ, the Netherlands, Norway etc etc all have them. So it's absolutely FA to do with historic colonial blah blah blah; as correctly pointed out those days are long gone.
Anyway, this is all a bit pointless. There is no way on earth the FI are going argie any time soon.
Furthermore the Argentine President does not need a 'poll boost'. A couple of weeks ago she won a landslide victory in an election with possibly the highest vote of any Argentine president ever. Try to keep up with current affairs before commenting
obviously the policy didn't exist before the election 🙄
obviously the policy didn't exist before the election 🙄
It's the policy of [u]every[/u] Argentine political party. There is no 'political mileage' to be had 🙄 🙄 🙄
Furthermore there was never any doubt that Kirchner would win a landslide victory - she didn't need a "boost".
It's the policy of every Argentine political party. There is no 'political mileage' to be had
policy is one thing, actually manoevering and actively doing something another (ask anyone who has read a governments election manefesto)
anyway, I'm up for the independance of the Islands, are you?
Furthermore the Argentine President does not need a 'poll boost'. A couple of weeks ago she won a landslide victory in an election with possibly the highest vote of any Argentine president ever. Try to keep up with current affairs before commenting
From memory the Falklands was one of her key pledges.
From memory the Falklands was one of her key pledges.
So tell me, from your memory, which candidate didn't have the issue of Falklands sovereignty as a key pledge ?
Although I appreciate that your memory isn't that good - you had "forgotten" that the Falklands was an issue that unites all Argentines, hence your question whether they really want them.
Expect to see lots more about this issue over the next few years as the Argentinean economy crumbles in about 18 months time.......
when China's demand for commodities tails off.......... nothing else will take their populations eye off how bad things are than raking over the coals again......
Shrugs
http://www.rusi.org/publications/newsbrief/ref:A4E83122445F1D/
Funnily, she added basically be careful they'll take what they want/come after you next etc.
Err no luv. Blair's gone now. He was the one that invades countries.
loving tj's selective stance on the right to self determination 😆
some pretty general ignorance throughout the thread regarding empires and their beginings but that's ok, i probably had the same knee jerk reactions before i actually bothered to learn about them. stuff like..........
It is an anachronism of our military imperialism
is just nonsense based on a guilt ridden explanation of how empires form. the british empire was created by a whole range of factors - economics, ecological takeover, religion, science and technology, even luck and accident. the idea that we created an empire solely by some great military invasion force that bludgeoned its way around the world is plain bollocks.
loving tj's selective stance on the right to self determination
Indeed - he won't be laughing when we give Scotland back to France, the western Isles back to Norway, and the Shetlands (with all their lovely oil) back to Denmark 😆
I suppose the Americans should give Texas back to Mexico too TJ?
El-TJ and Ernesto Chavez-Guavera are welcome to move to South America, I'd help contribute to the air fare..anyone else?
The ironic thing is that the Falklands war never happened the Islands would probably be part of Argentina by now. Stripping the residents of the Islands was the first step. There is no way that any UK government will accede to the transfer of the FI to Argentina, at least not until anyone still alive at the time of the war has passed on. Argentina knows this, hence any comments raised by them is just politics being played.
El-TJ and Ernesto Chavez-Guavera are welcome to move to South America, I'd help contribute to the air fare..anyone else?
They would still have access to the internet there too. If you're paying do you think you could stretch to an extra ticket?
I'm going to extend a formal invitation to Junkyard to resume negotiations, in good faith, to resolve the ownership dispute over the contents of his wallet.
Not the same you would need to be asserting the wallet was yours
A minor problem of the population not wanting to change, as with the Falklands.
Plantation of a pro UK population does not over time make it anything other than conquest...imagine Israel does this to Palestine – would it become OK because the population dropped in want to be Israeli- obviously they would kick the Palestinians out like we did to the Argentineans before respecting a populations wishes
If the majority of islanders wanted the change I really couldn't see a British goernment opposing it.
Did you read the link about why the islanders opinion is irrelevant in terms of international law? Your point is correct but then again we only let Brits live there so we don’t really need to worry on that front do we.
Regardless of colonialism and your views on it, the Falklands' population considers itself to be British. And that should be where it ends
As above why can people not see that it was taken by force and a Uk pop planted there- length of time does not make this right
Do Argentina really want the Island?
Rather like asking if you want to get laid or change your frame fork combo– it s in their constitution and the keep petitioning for its return what do you think Sherlock? 🙄
I don't understand why you are so keen to give the islands to a country that has no meaningful relationship with the population?
We put the population there – it is is an invasion I cannot believe how many posters seem to ignore this fact- perhaps Northern Ireland makes it easy for us to ignore plantations and then suddenly respect their wishes to choose us [ once we have the majority and we ignore the all Ireland vote obviously and partition the country to ensure we respect the wishes of the people – well the people who choose us obviously not the actual population who dont choose us]– which is after all why we put them there.
Plantation of a pro UK population does not over time make it anything other than conquest
Junkyard - I would refer you to my point above regards Mexico - would you assert that they have a legal claim over Texas, New Mexico, California, Nevada and Arizona?
Surely under your interpretation of the law the entire Southern half of the US is merely a conquest, and despite a long history of planation of a "pro US population" it should revert to Mexican sovereignty?
The problem with the Argentinian claim is just as "colonial" as the British one - Their only claim to the Falklands is as a historical remnant of the Spanish colony that preceded their own existence as a nation.
I dont know anything baout mexico or texas so I am unable to comment...Sorry this is STW what was I thinking off ignorance is no bar to posting SORRY 😳
No its nothing like that dont be daft 😉
Will google later and get back to you
Your overall point is correct that to attempt to rewrite borders based on historical boundaries would be doomed to failure/very complicated as we would just argue over what date to use ..FFS we would need to have all the Aussieds back as well [shudders]
perhaps Northern Ireland makes it easy for us to ignore plantations and then suddenly respect their wishes to choose us [ once we have the majority and we ignore the all Ireland vote obviously and partition the country to ensure we respect the wishes of the people – well the people who choose us obviously not the actual population who dont choose us]– which is after all why we put them there.
This is a completely different situation, there is a significant proportion of residents of the territory opposed to British rule. There is no opposition to British rule from the residents of the Falklands Islands. It is a bad example, and should not be part of this discussion. It has its own issues, which are very sepperate.
there is a significant proportion of residents of the territory opposed to British rule.
I believe the words for 75% is a significant majority but yes the Falklands was a much more succesful planataion than Ireland.
Does that now make it right because we removed the argies and wont let them return ?
They are not the same but nor are they nothing like each other.....the fact/point is the UK does not always respect the wishes of the island in deciding "ownership" as a partition clearly shows and we do plant pro UK population to make sure they freely choose us
Does that now make it right because we removed the [s]argies[/s] Spanish and wont let the argies have a peice of land which they have no rightful claim to ?
trailmonkey - Memberloving tj's selective stance on the right to self determination
Selective?
I dont know anything baout mexico or texas so I am unable to comment...Sorry this is STW what was I thinking off ignorance is no bar to posting SORRY
you don't remember the Alamo? 😉
Junkyard
You made some good points in your earlier post, and I am interested particularly in how governments [b]use[/b] the Falklands Islands situation. It is a complex and interesting debate, and we should consider why so many countries are siding with Argentina on this issue.
However, your continued insistence on including Northern Ireland in this debate prevents me from contributing further.
It is a complex and interesting debate, and we should consider why so many countries are siding with Argentina on this issue
it's the Mark Twain strategy, "buy land they don't make it anymore"
the south american economies are doing well due to natural resources which everyone wants access to, I imagine there are sweetheart deals being negotiated to ensure support for their land grab
Does that now make it right because we removed the argies and wont let them return
But we didn't - we only expelled 26 soldiers, nine of whom were already under arrest for a murder, and all of whom had been in the islands for less than three months - of a total population of 33 civilian resudents, four civilians left of their own free will, and the remainder, plus 12 "gaucho's" remained. The Gaucho's later commented that they were happy to remain, and were pleased that they had been paid for work done in silver by the British rather than worthless paper money as given by the Argentinians...
33 civilians - That was the sum total of the Argentinian colony in the islands in 1832, and only four left... thats the sum total of Argentina's claim to 3000 people and 4,500 square miles of British Territory
Can this not be settled with a friendly game rather than warmongering.
Choose something we invented so must be good at like Football?
These STW x Falklands threads are always a treat.
TJ, ernie and that other one clearly have such contempt for their own country, I really do wonder how they manage to keep on living.
It's quite sad that their enduring obsession with 'Fatcher' and the 80's means that rather than accepting that they were on the wrong side of history and have never knowingly been right about anything, they'd prefer to wish death on British service personnel and the subjugation of the FI to a country with no legitimate claim on them and no support from the FI population.
Ultimately, none of it matters. The Argentines are in no position to invade, the FI are vastly better defended than before and the 'Bloc' is just South American realpolitik being played out. There is precisely bugger all chance of some pan-South American armada embarking and risking their lives for the sake of Argentina.
The biggest risk to the FI comes from the British Government, especially now that every major party is rammed to the gills with effete careerist bed-wetters.
I think we should all move back to Africa and resurrect the Neanderthals, personally. Clearly that would solve all the issues, or perhaps we should devolve back to apes?
Falklanders consider themselves British. That should be all that matters in this discussion. You can keep your straw men of various other downtrodden 'colonial relics', I believe the thread was about the Falklands.
Choose something we invented so must be good at like Football?
How about cricket?
Why do the Argentinians even want the Falklands? What benefit is it to them?
I am afraid history happens and things move on. Should Russia give the part of Finland that it nicked off them? Should Sweden give its southern counties back to Denmark (The old capital of Denmark is Lund where I live in Sweden) Should Russia really have an enclave in Kaliningrad. There are many exceptions in history things do move on though. Even Gibraltar, the UK has actually have ran it longer than the Spanish now.
1462 Spanish forces took Gibraltar from the Moors 242 years
1704 The British captured it. 308 years
And there are plenty of Moslem extremists that would like to retake Spain for themselves.
Things move on but there is no right or wrong as everywhere has some kind of mis-justice.
ernie_lynch are you an argie? seem very informed
Bravo - love my country. I do dislike the imperial remnents tho.
So - why not the chagosians then? why do they not get the right to self determination?
they'd prefer to wish death on British service personnel
thats a disgraceful slur. Really - even for you thats rich
Bravo - love my country
which country?
Bravo Bravohotel8er
Sock it to 'em
TJ, ernie and that other one clearly have such contempt for their own country
Really? Can you explain this please, it's just that I really don't see that; in fact what I see is quite the opposite.
And as I, as you all know, am always right, that must therefore mean you are in fact [i]wrong[/i].
Sorry, but that's just how it is I'm afraid. You can't argue with Science. 😐
The ironic thing is that the Falklands war never happened the Islands would probably be part of Argentina by now.
No, it wouldn't - the rumours of Falklands oil have been circulating consistently since the late 1970s. (Never ever realised - almost as if there were some group of people that had an interest in making sure that the Brits don't lose interest in the islands).
Not the same
Exactly the same - I can make any number of invitations to you to enter into discussions about the possession of your wallet but as long as you have it and you want it, the response is going to be the same: piss off.
Just to fit in with your childish pantomime....
Fred:
And as I, as you all know, am always [s]right[/s] wrong, that must therefore mean you are in fact [s]wrong[/s] right.
Despite your over-inflated ego, this is actually how it usually turns out on most threads you contribute to.
TandemJeremy - Member
big and daft - if the wishes of the islanders are the only thing that counts why does this not apply to Diego Garcia?
TJ - you make a valid point about Diego Garcia and then blow your own logic out of the water by failing to apply the same standards to the Falklands.
At the time of the original Falklands conflict there were three "interested parties" (source Franks):
1. The Arg government for who possession of the Malvinas was always a major issue of policy and a national issue (an assymetric position vs the UK gov)
2. All British Governments asserted British sovereignty over the Islands and the Dependencies, without reservation as to their title, coupled with an unchanging commitment to the defence of their territorial integrity
3. [b]Thirdly, the Islanders always made it clear that they wished to remain British and
consistently resisted any change in their constitutional relationship with the United
Kingdom. [/b]
The Franks report also noted after the war that, the British government cast doubt over the commitment to the FI, they continued to supply arms to the Argies and they withdrew HMS Endurance. All these sent the wrong signals to BAires.
So fast forward to today:
1. Still true
2. Still true
3. Still true
...and again, the messages we are sending. Defence cuts, major cuts to carriers and ability to respond with air/naval power etc...
I predict the Argies will escalate tension in the area over the next 12-24 months.
I think TJ is trying to work out which country he loves based on his complex moral compass 😉
Teamhurtmore - I pointed out the hypocrisy - thats all. that and ainflamatory spanish phrase. I didn't actually state what I thought should be done with the islands did I
FWIW I have no time for places not in Britain but that want to be British. I thin the islands should be given independence under UN protection. Same as Northern Ireland or Gibralter.
I predict the Argies will escalate tension in the area over the next 12-24 months
especially when Wills does a tour down there as keeps getting trailed in the news
Despite your over-inflated ego, this is actually how it usually turns out on most threads you contribute to
It does not in any way actually, but you carry on with your little fantasy, if it makes you feel better. 🙂
Do you think there's a fair bit of inbreeding in the Falklands, what with such a tiny population/gene pool?
Can we not share them with the Argentinians? Would that not suit both nations a lot better?
TJ - there [b]isn't[/b] any resident population on Diego Garcia [i](which was pretty much the point of the court case)[/i]
So how can we offer them a right to self determination?
❓
FWIW I have no time for places not in Britain but that want to be British
do you have a defined geographic boundary in mind? care to share it?
still waiting to hear which country you love 😉
Well TJ - you will have to admit that if all you post is this:
TandemJeremy - Member
La malvinas son argentinas
...then it is hard not to interpret that as a "belief" 😉 that the FI should be given to Argentina!!
But you have explained your position above - and my point remains. The population of the FI have stated their desire and it is not to given independence under UN protection (misnomer?). So whoever you have time for, is frankly pretty irrelevant.
