[Closed] So how close were we to guns pulled yesterday?

trailertrash - Member

arguably - no media studies = we go back to 1970s standard TV and radio - you want that?

You mean it's supposed to have got better?

no art degrees = no public art = no much loved Angel of the North or Big Bang & no British film industry for example.

But it's not as simple as that, is it? Many artists have no qualifications, and there are thousands of jobs in the British Film Industry where a degree isn't/wouldn't be necessary. As said before (possibly in another thread), training can be done "on the job" in the form of apprenticeships. I'm willing to bet that, back when the British Film Industry was much bigger, a very small percentage of employees were degree educated.

no media studies = we go back to 1970s standard TV and radio - you want that?

hmmmmm rising damp and it's a knockout versus big brother and X factor.....where's my time machine

Mr smith, wind your neck in you buffoon and look at the cheeky wink. 🙄

but the film industry is made up lots of small self employed businesses as well as larger ones, some are not conducive to an apprenticeship scheme.
i certainly wouldn't want a school leaver working with me as a sole trader i couldn't wet-nurse somebody, somebody 20-21years old with a degree (suggesting some kind of application and ability) is going to be more useful than a 16year old school leaver who can't get out of bed without the help of his/her mother.

(i missed out a cheeky wink too 🙂 )

we all pay for our childrens eduction allready, up to 16. thats fair enough for me. cure for cancer/global warming etc. very good, of course i'd like that. however lets be balanced, most graduates will have unremarkable lives. some will never contribute anything to society.
everyone who access to university now, will still have access but pay for it themselves. expecting others to pay for it is morally wrong in my opinion.

It gets worse:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/dec/12/police-injured-protester-hospital

and

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11978884

keavo i dont agree at all, i work at a wolrd leading cancer research institute
99% of the 2000 or so employees are degree educated
i came away with a student loan of about 11k, it took me 10 years to pay off as graduate science salaries are pants
i couldnt have afforded to go to uni without grants and the loan
i cant imagine what it would be like starting now knowing id be coming away with a debt many multiples of that
less than 0.5% of our gdp is spent on funding research (my work is infact a charity)
a major resaon that the uk excels at science output is the quality of graduates and the expertise in universities
tuition fee rises coupled with the massive slashing of education budget is going to seriously damage research in this country
with the idiotic quotas on non-eu workers seriously hampering our ability to recruit the best from the rest of the world
and observe that germany usa and france are all increasing science and research funding and you come to the conclusion that this government is going to ruin one of the few things this country is a world leader in
and i personally know that the management at our institute, cruk, the royal society and imperial college are extremely alarmed by what appears to be happening

a major resaon that the uk excels at science output is the quality of graduates and the expertise in universities

with the idiotic quotas on non-eu workers seriously hampering our ability to recruit the best

Which is it kimbers?
This is all by the by anyway. The increased fees are coming and I'm happy about it. 😆

its both backhander which is why i said the best [u]from the rest of the world[/u] thats an awesome piece of selective cut n pasting!

your pleasure at the downgrading of our country seems rather warped!

Degrees are over rated. Many who have them seem to think that not having one makes you incapable. There are many ways to gain knowledge, uni is just one (and not the best IME).

a fair number of these protesters arrived *armed and ready* for trouble, balaclava's, tins of paint, helmets, "placards" made like riot shields and battering rams

If the police had chosen to proactively police and search all the entry points before the protest crowd developed - ie tube stations, coach parks etc, and arrest anyone equipped accordingly, under the perfectly lawful "to prevent a breach of the peace" then they could have nipped this in the bud,

There I was minding my own business leaving a tube station, making my way to my flat with a tin of paint to paint my front room. I had my bike helmet with me as I was going to bike to work the next day and I was accosted and arrested by the police.

Pretty stupid idea really.

Aso you seem to accept that the police use ilegal and unnecessary tactics on innocent football fans but cannot seem to understand that these same police are doing the exact same with the future leaders of this country.

kimbers, i (genuinely)commend you for your work in cancer research. my piont is that many graduates will not end up doing anything truly remarkable. i find it annoying that some think its their right to have others pay for their (uni)education.

of course degrees arent necessary for every person and every job

and seeing a home counties posh kid gafaw about his run-in with the royal car or pink floyd jr swinging from the cenotaph only adds weight to the chips on the shoulders of those who seem to resent students so bitterly

but the current government taking a sledgehammer to universities is reactionary tory dogma in action

and will make university even more elitist and full of overprivaledged people who think anyone without a degree is incapable and a pauper

ilegal and unnecessary tactics

OK, which [u]illegal[/u] tactics are they?

Kettling in circumstances of public disorder is perfectly legal - Austin (FC) & another v Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis (2009)

Look it up and learn!

Degrees are over rated. Many who have them seem to think that not having one makes you incapable.

There are many ways to gain knowledge, uni is just one (and not the best IME).

OK, which illegal tactics are they?

Kettling in circumstances of public disorder is perfectly legal - Austin (FC) & another v Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis (2009)

Look it up and learn!

[url= http://www.politics.co.uk/news/legal-and-constitutional/liberty-fight-football-fans-rights-$1255571.htm ]Illegal police tactics on football fans[/url]

I also think that the tactics of whacking innocent students over the head with blunt objects would fall into the illegal. Then trying to deny that same person emergecy life saving treatment is apalling. Imagine if stdents blockaded hospitals and prevented others emergency treatment.

Human rights violations and unnessecary force are all part of the tactics. Both illegal.

Look it up and learn!

Well at least your not condesending in your blinkered beliefs 🙄

My Daughter was at one two weeks back where the Police was spraying people in the face with some type of spray.

The end of the day how long can an inocent person regardless of age be continuously hit without hitting back?

grantway - Member

The end of the day how long can an inocent person regardless of age be continuously hit without hitting back?

Ask one of the Policemen who were being set upon?

LOL Drudith

I know many police who have been well up for this
They loved it when they done the miners
and also when they stampede the printers stike at Wapping

The Police constantly hide there numbers and i have also known where
they swap them with others to throw identification

I take it your one of Camerons Angels

Let's just fund useful degrees and not bother with rubbish like media studies, art etc..

What an incredibly ignorant thing to say. assuming you actually meant it.

Have you any idea what a 'useless Media Studies degree' entails? Have you?

Jesus Haribo Christ. My 'useless Media Studies' degree has enabled me to gain knowledge in such diverse fields as Architectural Design, Cultural Production and Psychology. Just a couple of examples. My 'useless Media Studies Degree' has enabled me to use my skills and talents to benefit industries such as Special Needs Education, Physiotherapy and even a Mountain Biking event.

See, unless you actually have a real knowledge of what each and every degree entails, then you are unqualified to criticise, quite frankly. To suggest that the only degrees that are deserving of funding are those which seem to offer a direct economic benefit to profitable industries is just incredibly naive and blinkered.

So, in your obviously enlightened and objective view, what degrees are actually 'useful'?

one that gets you a job 😉

My Daughter was at one two weeks back where the Police was spraying people in the face with some type of spray

Would it be this?

[img] [/img]

[url= http://www.metro.co.uk/news/848467-toxic-extinguisher-fired-at-student-protesters-by-police-medic ]Halon extinguishers contain toxic elements such as bromine and fluorine, and have been linked to breathing difficulties, skin and eye irritation, dizziness and even unconsciousness.
[b]Metropolitan Police denied using the extinguishers for crowd control and said halon devices were chiefly deployed to put out fires on people.[/b][/url]

So, Metropolitan Police proved of lying, basically. Evidence? It's there. I don't think anyone can argue with that!

They loved it when they done the miners

funnily enough the stories I've heard about some of that from both ex NCB blokes I've worked with and ex police who were there seems to indicate that on the whole there was a lot of banter and sharing of cups of tea etc... to the point were the police had to get other forces in to prevent "fraternising with the enemy". (based on evidence from Stoke miners and police)

yes there were some bloody battles between the sides but to paint all of the police as a bunch of fascist thugs and all protesters as fluffy bunnies is such a simplistic and untrue view.

I've had my share of serious aggro the police and really don't like them, but we always has the theory that if you go for them and provoke them you can't then cry foul when they come hard and fast back.

there are fight loving yobs on both sides of the line, the difficulty is when they clash with non-combatants caught in the middle.

just out of interest how many people have also ended up with projectiles thrown at the police lines ending up falling short. I remember seeing some chap next to getting floored by a half brick thrown by a clown behind us. Not all head injuries are as a result of a batton charge

what degrees are actually 'useful'?

kelvin
celcius
farenheit

😀

Ajf

all you've offered me is a contention that the use of those powers by the police was illegal - No judgement, no ECHR ruling, just a contention by human rights group liberty and the FSF.

Now, unless you can produce a court judgement which shows that police used an illegal tactic, then you're swinging in the wind!

You see, if you'd had the intelligence to point me towards Laporte v Gloucestershire, you'd be on the right track, however that ruled that the search, prohibition from joining the protest and detention was legal, only the forced return to London was unlawful...

Effinsaftey

Yeah she says that was the stuff and from the off they was
spraying that constantly in peoples faces

You see, if you'd had the intelligence to point me towards Laporte v Gloucestershire, you'd be on the right track

You're very rude and patronising aren't you?

And why are you using completely different case to make your point? It doesn't make you look any cleverer you know.

Bunch of protestors prevented from travelling to an airbase where [b]US bombers[/b] were flying out from. Hmm, strange that, eh? 😕

Halon

A family of chemical gases, similar to CFCs, except they contain at least one bromine atom. The trade name 'halon' is applied to several of these chemicals, which are used as fire suppressants. They are inert, non-toxic, and evaporate without leaving any residue.

they are ozone depleters though so the police have increased global warming

You learn something new every day, eh Tazzy? 🙂

What have we learned from this thread?

What have we learned from this thread?

that there are strongly polarised views on both sides of the debate. the truth is likely to be the messy bit in the middle that nobody wants to examine to closely as it makes for uncomfortable thinking to believe that either innocent protesters of the police could actually want to provoke or attack each other whilst in the anonymity of a crowd.

nice to see you back elfin this place was quiet without you 😀

Now, unless you can produce a court judgement which shows that police used an illegal tactic, then you're swinging in the wind!

To be fair I can't produce a court judgement as it was settled out of court for large sums of money

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/25062010/58/premier-league-stoke-fans-win-police-payout.html

http://www.fsf.org.uk/news/Police_admit_unlawful_use_of_section_27_on_Stoke_fan.php

But they did admit it was unlawful.

Why should I have had to point you towards Laporte v Gloucestershire? You obviously know it has nothing to do with either football or student riots so albeit showing even more examples of bad policing, had nothing to do with the fact that the police has acted unlawfully with both football fans and students.

Also strangely you ask what illegal tactics they use, yet you obviously know that they do use illegal tactics in crowd control. So you could have answered your own question.

Found this on Halon gasses so what the **** are Camerons
Angles allowed to use it?

[url= http://www.kiddefiresystems.com/utcfs/ws-383/Assets/MSDS_Halon_1211.pdf ]null[/url]

So I dont think you'll find proper medical help to hand if
all these people fail to the exposure of Halon

James Welch, legal director at Liberty, said: “This is yet another example of overly broad powers being used inappropriately. If you give the police powers that are not tightly defined, they are going to abuse them.

Doesn't say they were illegal, just used inappropriately because they were too broad, ie. they were not proportionate - that does [b]not[/b]mean it was unlawful, only the press headline says that, and the police apology letters didn't accept unlawfulness, only that the powers were used erroneously!

Back to the subject:

I genuinely sympathise with any peaceful protesters who wanted to make their voices heard, but by taking part in an event that everyone knew was going to descend into violence and disorder, you put yourself in a position where you were likely to be kettled, and by not leaving when violence began, you've become part of the problem!

Only thing is Zulu-Eleven regarding Kettling The Police
Kept them held for more than Ten Hours.

And also Kettling started before trouble started

Only thing is Zulu-Eleven regarding Kettling The Police
Kept them held for more than Ten Hours.

Well, if people had been calm and well behaved, I would imagine they could have gone home much, much earlier!

And also Kettling started before trouble started

Blatantly not true, containment was only activated in at 15.30h - the paint bombs and violence began at 1400h!

to be fair it won't be halon 1211 as that was withdrawn from use in 2003 due to the envrionmental impact of it's use.

only exemptions for halon use are MOD and aircraft

is there such a thing as a peaceful protest. they all end in tears, stay away if you don't want to risk injury. what would have happened without the police presence? more or less injuries?

‘The pin is always removed so its use is instantaneous.

‘By design, these fire extinguishers are extremely sensitive and can easily be discharged by sudden movement or pressure.’

Well that explains it then.

And it was a bit of luck that the copper in the picture was pointing the fire extinguisher straight at the protesters, when it accidentally went off ....... and not at himself or any of his colleagues.

Funny that.

Oh come on Z-11 you're boring now. You've had yer say; had yer little ego-trip, now chill out feller.

I genuinely sympathise with any peaceful protesters who wanted to make their voices heard, but by taking part in an event that everyone knew was going to descend into violence and disorder, you put yourself in a position where you were likely to be kettled, and by not leaving when violence began, you've become part of the problem!

The vast majority went along to protest peacefully. The demonstration was hijacked by a tiny minority of violent thugs, intent on causing trouble. This led to the police using excessive force against a majority of otherwise mainly peaceful demonstrators, and employing unnecessary and provocative kettling tactics proven to be counter-productive in such situations.

Zulu; all you know is what you've read about in the right-wing press you've chosen to read. Don't try making out you're some sort of authority on such matters. You've allowed your prejudices to cloud your judgement of these events, and your bigotry is painfully obvious. Give it a rest mate.

Elfinsafety - Member

The vast majority went along to protest peacefully.

The demonstration was hijacked by a tiny minority of violent thugs, intent on causing trouble.

[s]Zulu[/s] Elfin; all you know is what you've read about in the [s]right-wing[/s] Left-wing press you've chosen to read. Don't try making out you're some sort of authority on such matters. You've allowed your prejudices to cloud your judgement of these events, and your bigotry is painfully obvious. Give it a rest mate.

TFTFY 🙄

Like I said before - if people had been calm and well behaved, and protested peacefully, I would imagine they could have gone home much, much earlier!

Anyone who went into parliament square was in breach of the agreed protest route, they entered into this of their own free will - with rights, go responsibilities!

anyone with half a brain knew that this was going to happen.

Of course. Same way as only a tiny minority of car drivers will drive like idiots. You don't see roads closed off as a result though do you? And people still die.

Look at Zulu: Sitting there thinking 'how can I get back at Elfin in a witty and sarcastic manner?'. Don't bother son. I'm more impressed at the massive poos my mate's nipper does.

And you ain't seen nothing yet. Wait until the unions put a large demo out at the same time along with a large scale strike.

I see serious civil unrest greater than the miners strike coming

a million people on the streets? perfectly possible[u]

Zulu-Eleven I was regarding to the protest Two weeks back!!

Regarding your times if your getting them from the media
I wouldnt take them as actual as there has been alot missed out

🙄